how do you tell if it's a money grab?

If the school isn’t contacting him on a regular basis via phone, and actively recruiting him, the answer leans towards a money grab situation.  

Hey Matty,

As your son continues to attend these events, your mailboxes will likely start flooding with camp invites.  This is, far and away, the most common method for programs pay for their volunteer assistants.  So, they are largely a money grab.  That said, many programs also use some of these camps as a tool when trying to get second looks at players or with other steps in the process.  

A few ways you can separate...  

Has any dialog occurred directly with the RC or HC between your son and the player?  Has that dialog included any specifics about where they might see him fitting into their program?   If you are still not sure, have son contact the RC and thank him for the invite.  Then he should ask the RC where he saw him play and specifically what he liked about his game.  If he can talk specifics about your son, then you have some dialog that will tell you more about their true interest and what next steps to take.  

If he has had no such dialog, there may still be a chance to make something of the event (assuming the school is high on your son's list).  Again, have son contact RC, tell him he got the invite, tell him you have to be selective with which camps to attend and ask if he may be a player they are truly interested in seeing.  Be wary of well worded common courtesy responses ("yes, we'd definitely like to get a look at you in person", etc.)  Look for specific tool/position references and any first-hand knowledge of the player.  

Again, do expect to get a lot of camp invites if you are attending events.  All players do.

Matty, a few things:  first of all, I see you're in San Mateo - stay safe! Crazy  how many fires are going on up there right now.  We were in Sonoma County through 2018 so I know it's not fun.

2nd - a money grab is not always such a bad thing, IMO.  If it's nearby school that you and your son think could be a match, $200 is not such a high price for getting eyes on him, and if you're helping a low-paid assistant pay his rent, that's ok too.  But if it means hotels and flights, I'd pass.

3rd - I have said this here before so I apologize to anyone who's tired of hearing it, but for kids in the Bay Area and Sacramento area I cannot recommend attending the NorCal World Series too highly.  It's free (or was) and nearly every 4-year college program at all levels on the West Coast attends.  It was the only event my 2017 needed to go to, though we didn't know it at the time. Many if not most of the players are part of the NorCal program, but they'll take any kid on his HS coach's recommendation.

Matty,

I completely agree with JCG

2nd - a money grab is not always such a bad thing, IMO.  If it's nearby school that you and your son think could be a match, $200 is not such a high price for getting eyes on him, and if you're helping a low-paid assistant pay his rent, that's ok too.  But if it means hotels and flights, I'd pass.

I agree with all of that. My kid can talk the blarney off the blarney stone. Even with coaches he KNEW were just pitching their camps, he'd try to start an email exchange, asking questions or just talking about the game. We went to too many money grabs, but he learned something at every one we attended, whether it was what was a well-run program vs. a bad one, what kind of dorm room he wanted to live in, the kinds of facilities and amenities he wanted in a school, what kind of coaching he wanted.

So decide on a budget, try to pick schools you think you and he would be interested in, and then enjoy the experience. Sometimes I think I would love to have some of the money back that we spent on money grabs, but honestly, I wouldn't trade any of the memories we created along the way.

All good advice given thus far.  For us, money was/is an issue and does not grow on trees for us.  Early in the process, we attended a couple money grabs that provided almost zero value.  While this is not a hard and fast rule for everyone, we got to a point where my son would only attend something if he was sure he'd get a serious look at it.  In my experience, there are 2 kinds of players who get serious looks at camps and showcases - those who are in direct contact (like it goes both ways) with the coaches who will be present AHEAD of time and phenom-types that absolutely light it up at the camp.  And I'd argue the latter happens about once for that kid because the "secret" is then out.

Having said that, if money is not tight, I don't think you can too many of them.  I watched my son get more comfortable with each one he did to a point where he knew what his results would be before he even showed up.  That way, he could concentrate on all these extra little things to differentiate himself from the others.  I see SO many kids execute conservatively at these things and I think that's a recipe for throwing money away.  Some think that because they stopped the ball at SS and threw it accurately over to 1B, that they did well.  No.  A kid can completely miss the ball at SS and be more impressive in that one failure than the last kid was in his "success."  You go to these things to impress, not to adequately complete the task they give you in each station.

For those who don't have a ton of money like us, I'd encourage a 2023 to get to as many cheap camps/showcases as you can.  I've seen ones as cheap as $40 (NAIA) to $50 (D2) to $75 (high level JUCO) to $85 (mid major D1) to $90 (elite JUCO).  I consider ones in this price range to be of huge value - pound for pound.  They're all the exact same drills and measurables and each has the all-important, impossible to replicate element of pressure.  My 2021 son committed last month, but just did a $50 one (local hitting facility) and a $75 (high level JUCO) in the last 2 weeks.  Next weekend is a $90 elite JUCO one and God willing, he's doing a D1 one in October for $125 at one of his post-JUCO targets.  Our PBR recently added Trackman and Rapsodo so the minimum cost to do one of theirs is now about $300 - used to be around $200 which was good.  For $300 now, we're doing 3-4 non-PBR ones.  So the measurables from them aren't "verified," but we don't need them to be.  My son wants to keep pushing himself from a numbers standpoint as well as from a comfort standpoint.  So long as he wants to keep playing the game, he's going to need to impress coaches/scouts in small sample sizes like camps/showcases.

thanks all!  great info here.  Kinda confirms what I thought but it's great to hear.  we've gotten a few of these and I've always deleted the emails (not schools he's interested in, anyway) but there was a somewhat personal element to this one (head coach but not the one who sent the email) played at the same HS as I did  (although a few years older than me).  plus, it's in a pretty good fishing area so I can picture myself visiting my son at that school, lol.  

JCG, it's crazy over here.  thankfully, we're not in any fire danger but I know a few who have been evacuated or on evacuation watch. the worst part, for us in the suburban/urban areas is the air quality.  we have fires to the north, east, southeast, south and south west of us so unless the wind shifts to a particular direction, we're going to have some serious haze. the only thing I can think of to describe it is being in the middle of a two part fire on a weber kettle grill.  I could probably lay out some cured salmon filets in my back yard and come away with lox the next morning.

thanks again for the great info and i'm sure i'll be picking y'alls brains more down the road.

I'm still pretty early in this like you (2023 C). I think a lot of it will depend on your financial situation. A couple hundred bucks can get you a lot of value. Sure, it is a money grab, but I'm ok with that as long as the coaches are engaged and my son is learning. Most of all, he is getting to see how he stacks up. He also gets to see some of the things that go on in a showcase (cheating pop times, cheating 60's, etc) and most of all he is getting more comfortable in these settings. I wouldn't go doing every event you are emailed about, but it can't hurt to get comfortable in the ones that don't matter as much before he goes in front of coaches that do matter to him.

In FL most of the cages are closed depending on the facility. The first showcase type thing he did in June he fouled off all but one in his first round and hit a couple decent balls his second round. Next event a few weeks ago, first round was much better, but still not great. His second round was solid. This past weekend he went through his various drills while waiting to hit and barreled every ball he swung at.  We even practice it at home now. I'll tell him to get loose with no tee and be ready to hit when I come outside. 

Look its all a money grab. Please stop feeding the machine. You can do all the background work and make prior contact, but the only responses you will get back will be tailored to dangle just enough hope to get your $200 or $300 for the weekend. Quit feeding the machine.

FYI If a D2 is interested in you, they can have you on campus 1 time for a workout at no charge.  An actual private workout. With coaches you know are paying attention and not on their cell phone.

If you are being asked to pay for camps to get recruited, you are being played for a fool.  Been there, done that.  Don't let it be you next.

Showball, I think there are lot of flaws in youth baseball and the process is currently too expensive and somewhat capricious. It makes me sad that kids are priced out of baseball but I think that starts young and is pushed more by parents who buy $400 bats and pitching and hitting lessons for their 9 year old and coaches who don’t encourage kids to play other sports than it is by anything else. But I firmly believe that if parents are both realistic and judicious, targeted use of both camps and tournaments and/or showcases can be beneficial for a player trying to play beyond high school. 

Good post, PTWood.  For any who are not aware,  Showball apparently had a bad experience and makes it a point to generally trash all showcase events at every opportunity here.   If he/she provided specific detail of that experience relative to anyone's inquiries, that information could be quite helpful.  Unfortunately, that is not the way Showball has chosen to communicate.  So, it's just negative noise.  Constant negative noise. 

Showball, I'm really not sure why you choose to continue participating here.  I have yet to see a positive or even neutral post from you.  You are obviously very bitter... maybe you would be happier stepping away for a while and spending more time with things that don't piss you off so much.  ???  Like I said, a specific cautionary word to posters could be helpful but it' really pretty shameful, IMO, that you would just push your general heavy negativity on every aspiring player/parent that comes here for advice and guidance.  Sorry your experience was bad but that is not the case for everyone.  It can be a very exciting time, with all it's challenges and warts.  Yes, it can also be very difficult, frustrating and disappointing.  This site is known, in part, for helping players and families avoid some of the pitfalls.

My son went to several school events, but only ones 1) High on his list 2) Schools he had been in communication with 3) Some had contacted his travel coach 4) On two he indicated that he could not stay for the two days of the event and he asked if he could come in for one day and have the cost prorated.*  

*Both said yes and gave him preference in taking BP, playing and pitching and let him leave. Gives you an indication if there is serious interest or just filling the team's coffers. Two of the schools came to see him play in HS games (did not get an offer from either) and one he did....so you never know but should use some discernment in making these decisions. One of them he learned a lot from Nate Trosky who followed up and helped him with his recruitment. So not all is negative in these events. 

cabbage, you do you....I'll do me.

If I detailed all the scumbaggery I've witnessed in the showcase money grab and recruiting cesspool.......it would take a month of writing.  And many stories yet to unfold.

Here's one example that I witnessed: (and it embarrassed me to a point of no return because we were on the tour side of this)  50 $paying players at a haha "elite" prospect showcase camp. Unknown to me that a camp was even going on that day. Had a visit set up. Holy cow the coaches on the field LEFT LEFT LEFT their showcase camp to tend to sons visit. I mean dropped the showcase like a hot potato (head, pitch, asst) damn left the paying showcase guys hanging in the middle of the live game portion. With all the parents in the stands watching them leave and go up the stadium steps to go to some recruit in street clothes.

So lets leave the 'bitter' experience crud to another topic and your imagination.  What you see as bitter IS my utter disgust at what money and schemers and scammers and all around bad actors are doing to this sport. I believe you know exactly what goes on......and are just willing to turn an excusing blind eye to it as collateral damage. I'm not. But you do you and I'll do me.

So next time anybody throws a few hundred bucks at a showcase or a prospect camp......keep your eyes and ears open.......closely observe the environment around you. After a few times you will get an education. Because the scenario I described happens every week, every camp, in some similar form, maybe not as openly blatant.................you just have to know what to look for......and sometimes you may be the beneficiary, but more often you are just the mark paying the assistant salary.

Want another way to know when it is not a money grab? When its not an advertised scheduled camp. As in when a camp just happens to be advertised the day before the date of the camp and its priced at $20, and only a select few got an emailed notice of the camp. Cause they gotta charge something to stay within the rules.

Oh yeah if you want to learn some great movements and footwork. Trosky is very good with his instruction. Although even that may be trending too far into the commercial side now.  His old videos and such are a goldmine on Youtube from before he went more high profile.

None of the events either of my kids (one softball, one baseball) did were money grabs. They played for experienced, reputable travel organizations that selected the events. The college programs my kids were interested were at the events. My kids were presold.

The couple of showcases they attended were established, name showcases and came recommended by the travel program and the right college programs were in attendance. 

The handful of camps my kids attended were after personal invites by coaches following much communication. 

After filling out online recruiting questionnaires they received many camp invites. One time my son received an email expressing interest claiming they had seen him at event he registered but didn’t attend. These were money grabs.

I didn't see attending a local D1 camp for $175 when my son was a freshman as a money grab. The only purpose was to experience the process as a 5’11” 135 post freshman. My son came out of it confident and with the knowledge he needed to keep growing and fill out. Rev up the blender.

My kids travel team, tournaments and showcase experiences were all very positive. It’s what happens when a good travel program provides good advice and leadership. 

So many players have positive experience with travel ball, tournament s and showcases. If someone believes they were ripped off at every event maybe their decision making wasn’t sound.

Showball$, I agree with your assessment of showcases/camps.  I would disagree on the money grab part of it when it comes to the camp for $20.  Those are well worth the $20 or so spent because they are invite only.  Son was invited to several of those and I think they are the only ones worth the money.  The camps are money makers for the staff and are only worth it for the top dogs. 

Been on both sides of the camp deal.  Son was invited to a P5/SEC school by personal invite so our HC can see you in person before we make an offer.  Son went and no staff ever spoke to him.  They were not really watching when he pitched two innings.  The Volunteer Assistant told him he needed better control at the end of the camp when I made him go thank the staff for the opportunity.  He had been doing it long enough to know he was being played.  The funny part is he struck out 6 of the 7 guys he faced and the other rolled over to the 2nd baseman.  I wanted to go tell the VA that his comment was funny to a 16 year old but just walked away and marked them off the list.  Great motivation if son gets to pitch against them this year.

The other side was son was invited to a personal invite camp and was treated like a king.  Sat by HC and PC all day.  When he threw, all the coaches from every school there stopped what they were doing and went to watch him throw.  I felt bad for the other players and parents.  My kid was treated like a king.  they made an offer at the end of taking him on a private tour. 

There are always two sides to the story.  You never really know whether they are a money grab until the end.  But for someone out there it was worth it. 

My kids were presold.

And no problem seen there??? Not even a hint of an industry ethics issue? Or a pay to play model re the 'reputable' organization being the pre-seller?

(And if you want to go fully down the entire rabbit hole......lets discuss the various ways money finds its way from the reputable organizations into college baseball funding and outside coach pay? IE Incentives to the decision makers disguised as field rent, a real donation here or there, fees paid to attend event, etc.)

See this is classic what is wrong with the entire game. The basic foundation of the process is tainted by cash flow.

And its getting worse year by year as it all becomes 'accepted' practice and the norm.

Your average travel ball parent just beginning the process has no clue how deep this runs or works. That's why they are here, some of you are acting as industry insiders and apologists for a system that has worked for your benefit (and it worked for me too), but that doesn't mean I can't call it what it is and has become.

Those are well worth the $20 or so spent because they are invite only.  Son was invited to several of those and I think they are the only ones worth the money. 

Sorry, exactly correct. I am 110% for those.

And 110% for any feel good experience trip.

@Showball$ posted:

My kids were presold.

And no problem seen there??? Not even a hint of an industry ethics issue? Or a pay to play model re the 'reputable' organization being the pre-seller? 

It's a business, nobody is going to turn down money to give Johnny the same opportunities as Jimmy. As a consumer it's your job to do the research and make educated purchases. That's why this board is great, it is the research. 

Smart money says getting with a travel team that can help place you is the best bet. More affordable, more direct, and you get live reps. By joining one, wouldn't you be better off than paying for showcase after showcase? 

If you have issues with the costs, well everybody does. But if you're going to get into industry ethics here, well I have bad news about your shirt that was Made in China. 

My son's travel team in Iowa was a great experience for him and got him some exposure. But it was expensive. I can't even imagine what some of you are paying — my guess is far more than we paid for two practices a week and tournaments that were entirely in about three states around us.

Even when those teams went to some of the bigger baseball schools often the HC would give a welcoming speech, talk about the atmosphere, and then we rarely saw them — the camp would be run by assistant coaches and current players, most of whom already knew who they were supposed to be nice to.

None of us can control how a college runs its camps or what they intend to get out of it. If YOU find value in it, then it was worthwhile. If you don't, don't do it again. That doesn't mean that the next kid didn't get value or shouldn't do it. Every journey is different, one of the pitfalls of this is that you have to find the path that is right for you.

Whew.  Entitled much?  I understand the frustration, but this sounds a little like wanting equality of outcome versus equality of outcome.  Spoiler alert!  Neither exist when it comes to this stuff.  Is the recruiting game unfair?  Yep.  Has money fundamentally changed and soured youth baseball and up?  Yep.  Are some camps/showcases money grabs?  Yep.  My response that is "so?"  And?  These are MASSIVE problems that serve as obstacles for everyone and in very different ways.  My guess is that no a single person here likes any of this stuff any more than you do.  I think the issue is the complaining and silly belief that any of here have any control over it.  We could get every member of the HSBW to line up against "the man" and not make a dent in these problems.  Sorry to spoil anyone's dreams, but there will be no uprising.  No revolution.  Whatever changes do happen, they'll happen over time and all the skin any of us have here in the game will long since have moved on.

So what do we do?  We make personal decisions that we're comfortable with and we play the game as it is.  Or we walk away from the game.  This forum is here to help those that choose to get into the game, but it's silly to think playing the game means anyone is okay with every aspect of it.  We're not.  Education is key.

@Showball$ I have a legitimate and serious question. How would you fix it? I've actually thought long and hard about it. Part of the reason you need some variation of camps and showcases and tournaments and metrics is because baseball is inherently harder to scout than other sports. You can watch 20 minutes of a kid playing basketball and have a sense of where he/she can play even if their shot is off that night. In theory, you could watch 2+ hours of baseball and have no clue about how a kid hits or plays in the field if they get walked/HBP and if nothing is hit to them in the field. In addition, talent is so spread out that it is not always easy to see even match ups that will honestly give coaches a sense of how a player will perform at the next level. [For example in girls basketball, the majority of top players, by recruitment sophomore/junior year of high school, are playing in one of three major circuits. Recruitment is a lot more focused by projected level so coaches and players get way more bang for their buck at each game. A P5 D1 coach can go to one game and 10 out of the 20 girls they see are in their wheelhouse.] I believe COVID has accelerated the use of video and that will help but eventually coaches want to lay eyes on prospects. So what would the solution be? Adding to this, as much as we wish everyone did everything for the love of the game, there are inherent costs in running camps, showcases and ultimately baseball programs.  

Finally on camps, and more to the @mattys's question, I would agree that it stinks that it is the way third assistants are paid but I also believe most college programs are significantly enhanced by having that assistant on board. During my son's recruiting process he did 4 camps. He was a player of interest in two and an interested player in two. The first one we did knowing it would be a good experience for him to learn how to handle himself in those situations. It was educational for us in terms of process (how they measured metrics) and information (most camps the coaches talk about their recruiting process and it's much better for your son to hear it from a respected college coach than from you). The second was because the school was very interested in our son and it gave him an opportunity to meet the coaches, see the facilities and interact with some players. For us it was worth the investment as he was able to eliminate a school from his list. The third was a school that we wanted our son to consider that had not shown any interest in him. For us, we decided it was worth the investment because the school ticked all of his boxes. Even though he was not an "invited" player, he did enough during BP, in game hitting/fielding and ultimately pitching that they became interested in him as a prospect. The final camp it was the final piece of his recruitment, a chance for him to meet the coaches, see the facilities and he eventually committed there. The keys were: 1. for all four camps we knew what our goal was; 2. We had a pretty good sense of where our son landed in terms of talent. If we had been wrong, going to a camp and lack of interest would have helped us refine where he was looking; and 3. We determined that we were willing and able to pay the price. There were other camps that he was invited to and we considered but we decided not to because of an issue with one the points above (in particular at the end of his process we just decided that we could not justify the cost). 

Back to your point on paying into the system, I believe that if parents are judicious, knowledgeable (which is why this forum is so great) and realistic, they can tap into the system in a productive way. 

Sorry for rambling but I think the question is a really good one and hopefully the conversations will help someone starting the process. 

@Showball$ posted:

My kids were presold.

And no problem seen there??? Not even a hint of an industry ethics issue? Or a pay to play model re the 'reputable' organization being the pre-seller?

(And if you want to go fully down the entire rabbit hole......lets discuss the various ways money finds its way from the reputable organizations into college baseball funding and outside coach pay? IE Incentives to the decision makers disguised as field rent, a real donation here or there, fees paid to attend event, etc.)

See this is classic what is wrong with the entire game. The basic foundation of the process is tainted by cash flow.

And its getting worse year by year as it all becomes 'accepted' practice and the norm.

Your average travel ball parent just beginning the process has no clue how deep this runs or works. That's why they are here, some of you are acting as industry insiders and apologists for a system that has worked for your benefit (and it worked for me too), but that doesn't mean I can't call it what it is and has become.

 

 

 

 

I don’t buy anything expensive without doing some research first. I wouldn’t expect college baseball coaches to do any differently. 

With my daughter I was the parent who didn’t know anything. I played college ball. But summer ball and recruiting had completely changed. When my daughter was eleven I hooked up with a dad who knew what he was doing to start a 12u travel team. When my daughter was thirteen she was asked to play for a highly regarded travel program. She played there through 18u Gold. But I never stopped leaning on the dad for advise. He had been through recruiting with three older kids. 

When my son (five years younger) turned thirteen I started a team for him along with three dads who had played college ball. When he was fifteen he was recruited  by top 17u teams in the area. When he was playing 16u I asked a lot of questions about 17u teams.

I was the parent who didn’t know the process. I took it upon myself to learn. My daughter committed after her freshman year of high school. It’s how it is with girls. I didn’t see her as a college prospect until she was a freshman. 

With my son his talent was more obvious. He was the typical younger kid who developed faster hanging around an older sibling’s practices. When he was fourteen I started attending college games and asking parents. “How did your son end up here? Where else did he consider?” Then I shut up and listened for a half hour. I got “go where you’re loved” from asking the dad of an NCSU freshman if UNC had showed interest. 

My kids got to go “away” to colleges of their choice because of how the process works. They targeted colleges. When I was in high school and played Legion my options were the colleges that targeted me. Some of my Lesion teammates took the risk of walking on at programs that had never seen them play. All they had was a letter of reference from high school and Legion coaches.

The best advice I can give for advancing to the next level is don’t throw spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks. Have a business plan. Preplan. Presell. Be prepared.

Wondering if Showball is the whiner at the water cooler at work. These are the people with all the complaints and no solutions. Then they complain others advance over them.

As our company grew ownership/management would discuss these people. Every company has a few. When they suggest they will resign don’t talk them out if it. We wanted employees with solutions, not problems.

ptwood I have a legitimate and serious question. How would you fix it? I've actually thought long and hard about it.

I don't know either. On one hand the supposed responsible decision makers in the college coaching rank could fix it immediately, IF they wanted to.  But they don't and won't.  You have approached a situation now where many of the younger assistant coaches have grown up from showcase payers to now young men coaching. This system is ingrained in them as the norm. They are fully invested in the money flow of it all. (This is the top down approach  to where the fix is needed to start)

But if you want to go bottom up, then its obviously the parent responsibility to just say No. But that's not gonna happen near term either because many are blissfully happy to be player #89 on a roster, any roster............

The middle approach would require honesty over business practices for the 'reputable' organizations.  (IE we can get your favorite player on a roster, just keep paying us, while going unsaid silently is that yeah you're on the roster, but don't call us when you are cut or find out 89 players are there)

It may not even be fixable. It may just eventually implode upon itself as the product deteriorates.

Honestly, as a fan and as a former lower level coach I want to see players who want it, not an entitled collection who bought it. Trosky was mentioned earlier. I want to see players that have the mentality he preaches, the grinder, the hustler, he calls it the 5th tool, I'm tired of watching 2 tool 'measurables' players sabotage the game because they lack consistency, awareness of game flow, and that 5th tool.  If I had to coach a high school or college game these days I'd need a case of TUMS to endure what I often see executed on the field now.

@JCG posted:

Matty, a few things:  first of all, I see you're in San Mateo - stay safe! Crazy  how many fires are going on up there right now.  We were in Sonoma County through 2018 so I know it's not fun.

2nd - a money grab is not always such a bad thing, IMO.  If it's nearby school that you and your son think could be a match, $200 is not such a high price for getting eyes on him, and if you're helping a low-paid assistant pay his rent, that's ok too.  But if it means hotels and flights, I'd pass.

3rd - I have said this here before so I apologize to anyone who's tired of hearing it, but for kids in the Bay Area and Sacramento area I cannot recommend attending the NorCal World Series too highly.  It's free (or was) and nearly every 4-year college program at all levels on the West Coast attends.  It was the only event my 2017 needed to go to, though we didn't know it at the time. Many if not most of the players are part of the NorCal program, but they'll take any kid on his HS coach's recommendation.

Good call on the NorCal World Series @JCG. My 2013 attended 2012 at the request of a Coach. He was not in the NorCal Program. They won championship. Tons of eyes on every kid, HC, RC and Scouts. 6-8 players ended up at Dl programs(2 Stanford, Washington, UCLA, CAL, Fresno, UOP) and I know of 4-5 that were drafted before and after college, some still playing. Find a way to get your son to this event. Not sure if it is still free. It was also played at a beautiful park at the University of the Pacific.

@Picked Off posted:

Good call on the NorCal World Series @JCG. My 2013 attended 2012 at the request of a Coach. He was not in the NorCal Program. They won championship. Tons of eyes on every kid, HC, RC and Scouts. 6-8 players ended up at Dl programs(2 Stanford, Washington, UCLA, CAL, Fresno, UOP) and I know of 4-5 that were drafted before and after college, some still playing. Find a way to get your son to this event. Not sure if it is still free. It was also played at a beautiful park at the University of the Pacific.

thanks for the endorsement of the norcal world series.  I know a coach in the program and he likes my son (thinks he's just enough of a knucklehead, lol).  I'll reach out to him and ask about it.  

thanks to all for all of the advise and experiences. this is helping a lot to fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle. things sure have changed since the 80s

@Picked Off posted:

Good call on the NorCal World Series @JCG. My 2013 attended 2012 at the request of a Coach. He was not in the NorCal Program. They won championship. Tons of eyes on every kid, HC, RC and Scouts. 6-8 players ended up at Dl programs(2 Stanford, Washington, UCLA, CAL, Fresno, UOP) and I know of 4-5 that were drafted before and after college, some still playing. Find a way to get your son to this event. Not sure if it is still free. It was also played at a beautiful park at the University of the Pacific.

UOP does have a great facility, though the city is not California's finest destination. The year my son went it was at Santa Clara University, which also has a beautiful ballpark and is in a nicer locale with a wesome Filipino restaurants nearby.

Agree, Stockton is not the best of CA cities. Santa Clara was a top pick for 2013. Beautiful park, he got the full tour and behind the scenes look, but in the end $60K + is way to pricey even if you could get a 50% scholy.

Santa Clara, LMU,  Pepperdine, St. Mary's -- lots of really nice schools in  the West Coast Conference, but they all have the reputation of giving very little need-based or academic aid.  UOP too.

Showball$, I agree that the system is a mess but it fits under the supply and demand theory whether we like it or not.  Some parents are willing to pay whatever it costs to get their kid seen.  There are those who pay $80,000 a year to go to schools like IMG and others to get a college scholarship that is worth so much less than that.   There are those who pay $5,000 a year to play on a third or 5th tier team of a certain organization because the organization is the best and the top high school recruits played for that team and they get players to college.  There are parents who will pay $1,500 to go to a showcase to possibly get a write-up or get seen or get a profile on such and such page.  They are willing to spends thousands of dollars to get somewhere that they dreamed of going only to last 1 year or 1 semester.

The problem is not the coaches fault, or the organization's fault, or the team's fault, or the parents' fault but everyone's fault.  As long as there are players willing to pay (parents willing to pay) then the showcases and camps and showcase teams will charge large amounts. 

I have an answer to the original question.  How do you know if it's a money grab?  When you got nothing for your money.  The problem is you sometimes don't know until you spend the money whether it was a money grab for you.  It may have been a waste for your family but was a success for someone else.  Because as has been said there are those who can afford to spend the money and those who can't.   There are those who get something out of the showcases/camps and those who don't. 

College softball does camps now where they guarantee a certain number of scholarship offers will be given out at the end.  The catch is most of the time they already know who will get those scholarships and from what schools.  Some times it is one player who gets multiple scholarship offers from various schools.  But they are not lying.  The problem is some parents don't understand the writing and thinks every player that comes will get a scholarship offer. 

Our journey was PG tournaments that my son paid very little to play because they were either highly wanted by teams or they played on fully funded teams.  Yes, we were the ones who caused a kid on the 3rd or 5th tier team pay a lot to play so that they could pick up my sons to play on the top tier teams.  Do I feel bad?  Most of the time but it was also supply and demand.  They had a need and my sons were the answers. 

@PitchingFan nailed the answer.  "I have an answer to the original question.  How do you know if it's a money grab?  When you got nothing for your money."

I'll take this one step further.  It's when YOU didn't get what you expected to get out of it.  The key piece here is YOU and the expectations YOU set for it.  Not what was sold/hyped on the flyer/in the email.  We fell for (read as "we allowed") a couple money grabs early on, so we learned from them.  Have done 8-10 more showcases/camps since those learnings and got EVERYTHING we expected from each one of them.  But guess what was never an expectation of ours?  To walk away with an offer.  Or to be "discovered."  That doesn't mean getting an offer or being discovered can't be an expectation of yours.  But if your strategy is to hope for an offer or to be discovered, you don't have a strategy and your expectations are your mistake.  We always had goals for each one my son did.  They were realistic and he went into every one knowing what he'd walk away with.  Anything more than that was frosting and we viewed it as such.

@mattys  PM me if you'd like to talk specifics with your situation.  I'm happy to share all I've learned.

When we started, we didn't know what we didn't know.  We thought that playing on a higher-level organization travel team was better than playing on a local travel team coached by dads who didn't know anything.  We thought playing better competition was important experience for my son's high-school team.  We didn't know, even freshman and sophomore year of high school, that we should be thinking about college recruiting.  And obviously, if our son had been a top D1 talent, someone would have told us.  We stumbled our way through, doing the occasional showcase because a high-school or travel coach recommended it.  Did a local college camp because it sounded like fun.  Kept doing PBR showcases without really knowing why.  Kept paying the travel organization because the baseball was fun and challenging.  Travel coach said "could be mid-major D1" - that's what they say when they know you're not yet D1.  We didn't know that either.  Didn't find HSBBW until spring of junior year, then I read like crazy.  It turned out o.k., but you could say that a lot of the money we spent was not necessary. 

I only felt really cheated once, that was a showcase, had to stay overnight, son ran the best 60 he had ever done . . . but they mixed up his number with the guy he ran next to, so then his outstanding round of fielding, no-one cared.  In hindsight, I do wish I had asked for our money back!  I wonder about college camps - if they said, "come to our camp and learn something," would people still come, if they didn't think it was about recruiting?  I think we would have - in fact, I think that's what we did (he had gone to that camp as a little kid, we didn't really know the difference). 

I agree with what $howball says to some extent, but as I see it, the problem isn't the actual events, each of which has benefit for a particular small group.  It's that all of these companies, camps, etc. make their money off people's ignorance, and thus have no reason at all to enlighten them; in fact, have every reason not to enlighten them.  I'm guessing that if PBR said, "you don't need to go to go to a showcase unless you have D1 measurables," they would lose most of their business.  Or if PG said it about WWBA.  HSBBW can enlighten people, as in this thread, but only if you find it in time.

When I created the Area Code games in 1987 there was NO showcases and a few College Camps.

Players who achieve athletic scholarships were recommended by pro scouts, HS and Summer team coaches. The College Coaches listen.

For 17 years, I was amaze at the cooperation between College Coaches and Pro Scouts. When the  showcase promoters appeared at our AC tryouts and wanted our rosters, I refuse their $$$.

Ability, 6 tools and a competitive development summer team with the support of the HS Coach are the "stepping" stone. Baseball prepares a young man for his future career.

Bob

Just today I listened to a podcast with the RC for DBU, discussing how to best utilize travel tournaments to get recruited.  A lot of great points were made, but nothing earth shattering.  The main point he made was to really evaluate your players playing level and get him to the right tournaments where there will be coaches and recruiters for the level the player can play at the next level.  He said that if you are a DII/III type player don’t go to WWBA thinking that if you have a good tournament that you just might catch the eye of a DI coach.  If you want to go to get the experience, knock yourself out.

As long as I can remember we have all been taught to evaluate any purchase from the viewpoint of caveat emptor (buyer beware).  Hey, I don’t like the showcase system either. I’m on record many times for saying I don’t like to see an industry that is succeeding by monetizing a boy’s dream. I have been very critical of PG on this board (huge waste of money for majority of youth players) and gotten a lot of backlash for it. But to continue to gripe about the system is a cop out. The system succeeds because its being supported by uneducated parents and crooked travel ball organizations. The onus is on the parents to create the change - nobody else is complaining. Parents should have 2 things in their tool belt : an understanding of the game AND a realistic view of your son’s level of ability. Some parents have one or the other. Hardly any have both. Most have neither. So parents are uneducated consumers and regularly get fleeced when it comes to youth baseball, which often leads to disappointment in the HS experience (and sometimes beyond). Everyone seems to understand that you have to do your homework before you buy a car. You can’t trust a car salesman when a $30,000 sale is hanging in the balance, right? Travel ball is no different - but I bet a lot more parents don’t do the same diligence when choosing a travel team as when buying a car AND (if you are honest about it) have invested at least 30k in your kid’s travel sports. I don’t know what it is about baseball that makes so many people that never played the game think they know so much about it. I have never understood that. But the point is, it’s up to the consumer (parents) to drive the change - if there is going to be any - and that starts by being more educated. An educated consumer always makes better choices. 

@adbono posted:

As long as I can remember we have all been taught to evaluate any purchase from the viewpoint of caveat emptor (buyer beware).  Hey, I don’t like the showcase system either. I’m on record many times for saying I don’t like to see an industry that is succeeding by monetizing a boy’s dream. I have been very critical of PG on this board (huge waste of money for majority of youth players) and gotten a lot of backlash for it. But to continue to gripe about the system is a cop out. The system succeeds because its being supported by uneducated parents and crooked travel ball organizations. The onus is on the parents to create the change - nobody else is complaining. Parents should have 2 things in their tool belt : an understanding of the game AND a realistic view of your son’s level of ability. Some parents have one or the other. Hardly any have both. Most have neither. So parents are uneducated consumers and regularly get fleeced when it comes to youth baseball, which often leads to disappointment in the HS experience (and sometimes beyond). Everyone seems to understand that you have to do your homework before you buy a car. You can’t trust a car salesman when a $30,000 sale is hanging in the balance, right? Travel ball is no different - but I bet a lot more parents don’t do the same diligence when choosing a travel team as when buying a car AND (if you are honest about it) have invested at least 30k in your kid’s travel sports. I don’t know what it is about baseball that makes so many people that never played the game think they know so much about it. I have never understood that. But the point is, it’s up to the consumer (parents) to drive the change - if there is going to be any - and that starts by being more educated. An educated consumer always makes better choices. 

I have heard many times, that there is more money in bad baseball than in good baseball.

I can see both sides of this argument. To me, it all comes down to your budget and your expectation. Last summer I was in Boston with my son who was a 110lb rising freshman at the time. Harvard is he “dream school”. They happened to have a camp going on and he jumped at the opportunity to do it. He had a great time seeing the facilities, doing the showcase type stuff, and playing against rising seniors. He grounded out against a kid throwing 91 and was so excited. For us, the few hundred bucks was worth the memories. 

There were also rising juniors there who were expecting to be evaluated and recruited. There were 2 kids there who were invited by the coaches, the rest just signed up. The invited kids got private meetings, tours, conversations and attention. Some of the kids had no business expecting to be recruited. My son was better than them as a small incoming freshman. I doubt some of them even got a hello from the coaches. If I were them I would have felt like it was a money grab. 

Adbono, I agree with you, but the problem for many is finding people to ask. Baseball is a small world (especially in a small town), people talk, you don't want to say the wrong thing to someone, be "those parents," have it get back to the high school coach, for example.  Son's first travel team was pulled out of rec ball by dads who didn't know about those things either.  Found our way to a hitting instructor, a great guy, who recommended a travel organization.  So, off we went.  

When my son entered high school, we thought, naively, that the high school coach would be the right person to ask for advice, being unbiased (i.e. not a dad).  We met with him in fall of freshman year, for general advice, and especially about travel organizations.  We had no idea that that was the kind of thing that gets you completely panned on HSBBW:  PARENTS NEVER TALK TO THE HIGH SCHOOL COACH!  What did we know?  It only occurred to us later that it could have been seen as trying to influence our son's placement in the program; and I have to say, I don't think the coach ever took it the wrong way.

I don't have a bad word to say about any of the coaches, instructors, etc., but we didn't get much useful advice either.   But, it's not actually like buying a car, because for baseball, doing the due diligence involves asking questions that then you wonder if you are getting a straight answer, and if not why not - it's not like gas mileage.

One weekend fall day I was driving by Villanova’s field. They were having a camp. I stopped to watch for a few hours. There were 36 players. They do four of these. 

Of the about 25 position players only 4 had D1 bats. I mentioned to a Villanova pitcher I knew. When I pointed them out he told me it was the same four the Villanova players picked out. It turned out they were invited post PG. The other 21 position players were locals on a prayer. 

Every position player had good hands and a good arm. But the difference in swings was obvious to a baseball person. The other 21 were likely all conference players around the area who didn’t understand the difference between very good high school player and D1 prospect.

I've read through these posts with a big grin on my face.  My honest conclusion is you don't know until you know when it comes to your first couple experiences with travel baseball, camps and showcases.   If there is anything to learn here it is to start small, and don't put a lot of money down until you know what you are getting for your money.  So, listen to other's feedback through friends, parents, players and read HSBBWeb.   Some of us have probably made some small mistakes along the way and some of us have made some big mistakes.   If it doesn't pass the sniff-test, stay away.   Chalk up the losses for the "cost of doing business", let others know and move on.

As always, JMO.