How does talent compare at top D3 vs Bottom D1?

Another topic that comes up a couple of times a year. Do a search and you will find lots of threads on this subject.

 

The top D3 teams can beat good D1 teams a game or two. The biggest difference is pitching depth, the top 1 or 2's on a D3 team would likely be on a D1 roster, below this it drops off significantly. Sometimes these starters take a year or two to develop, which they would not get the chance on a D1. You can also put the top 1/2 of the position players in this same category, but you will find that the talent level drops off in the bottom half of a D3 roster. 

 

If you expect to play much on a top 15 D3 team you should have D1 talent, or be willing to work hard to develop it and then play in the last two years of school.

 

 

Are you talking team or individuals, pitcher or position?

More than a few of the responses are likely to reflect whether the player was a top D3 or a lower level D1.  I just saw on one website of one D3 that their player was just selected to the All Star game for one of the top Summer Wood Bat Leagues, where he is the top BA average hitter.

Overall, if a lower level D1 is fully funded and does not have the depth of quality players and pitchers through an entire roster to be better than a top D3 over a full college season, the D1 staff should be looking for work. With that said, I believe the D3 Champion this year probably has the depth of talent and level of talent to give more than the bottom D1's a battle.  But that D3 is a very large public school from the North which could be considered to over-recruit, also, according to a number of posts I have read.

If you search on the site, you will find this is a recurring topic and nothing much has changed from the prior threads and exchanges.

Searching old threads, I do see lots  of discussions.  Good stuff.

(I am wondering mainly because my secret desire (and his mom's too) is for the kid to play at a strong D3 program.  Just seems more likely to us that he will thrive in a smaller school environment in many ways, not necessarily having to do with baseball. But the kid has serious baseball ambitions too.  I suspect but don't know for sure that a good d3 would give him, in a sense, the best of both worlds -- a high quality baseball experience that pushes and challenges him and the kind of academic setting in which he could be at his best. )

It depends on who's pitching that day.

Since you are from NorCal I would suggest he look at:

 

1. Linfield:

2. Chapman

3. Trinity (Tx)

4. CLU

 

As a start for top D3's that have kids drafted and are consistently top programs. Beyond this then you go to MidWest and Eastern programs, which is frankly where most D3 programs are.

 

Visual here:

 

https://maps.google.com/maps/m...b3b44&dg=feature

 

Go to D3baseball.com and you can find the top D3 programs year in and year out.

 

Good luck.

 

 

There is no one answer. The great thing is there are plenty of options, which, as I posted recently also include Summer Wood bat league opportunities which exist and further add, or subtract, from the experience which lies ahead.

Depending on his talent level and especially his academics/SAT/ACT, the options could include  schools like St. Mary's and Santa Clara, which offer a somewhat similar experience in terms of size, to the schools BOF included.  They are also very different because of the more rural feel at St. Marys and distinctly urban sense at Santa Clara, especially the baseball field with huge fencing to keep balls from getting onto busy streets. For D3, CLU and Linfield would have a feeling more like St. Mary's with Trinity and Chapman being more like Santa Clara. Other factors to include are the quality of the coaching and coaching staffs,  playing time, winning vs. not winning, opportunities for each in established programs like Linfield, Trinity and CLU vs new coaching staffs at St. Mary's and SCU.... and cost.

At the core level, though, provided cost isn't the decider,  it is what is best for your son, not what we as parents view as best for our son. He will be the one in the classrooms and spending incredible hours on the field, in the weight room, traveling, etc.

The more you can support getting your son exposed to schools of the type being discussed, the better feel and sense he will acquire for where he hopefully fits and which coaching staff and school support that fit.

Helping him realize baseball ambition and D3 are completely compatible at schools like those which BOF included can also be quite important.

 

SluggerDad - There is a lot of great aspects to D3 baseball, and it sounds like you are well aware of them.  The biggest challenge I've run into is convincing an 18-19 year old kid that D3 baseball is the "best of both worlds" (I agree) before they've experienced those two worlds.  I think it takes a lot of maturity and self-awareness for a young man to make those life decisions ahead of experiencing them.  JMO.

"Just seems more likely to us that he will thrive in a smaller school environment in many ways, not necessarily having to do with baseball. But the kid has serious baseball ambitions too"

 

As infielddad points out their are many small school D1's.  Even USF and LMU are not "large schools" in my book (6,000 students).   You say your son has serious baseball ambiitions, if you are referring to pro ball and he is a position player, he is best served by playing D1, even if its a weaker league.  

 

Position players playing JC, D2 and D3 are more likey to receive a hitting "discount" evaluation, then similar players in D1 because they aren't facing guys throwing 90ish to 95 every game. i.e. The scouts told my then JC player son prior to the draft,  their only concern was whether or not he could hit guys throwing 90-95. 

 

If your son can show that he can hit good D1 pitching, he improves his chances and round selection in the draft. 

CollegeParent brings a very good perspective on a position player and the next level beyond college.  Where I would broaden the perspective again comes back to College Summer Wood bat leagues.  The D3 kid I mentioned earlier is proving, this Summer, what he can do with wood and proving he can do it against a consistently higher level of pitching than one would see across a D3 season.

Personally, I would see part of the balancing to be whether it would be more of a "fit" to play  on a top D3 team which wins, provides high quality coaching and gets me exposure needed for the next level by the coach placing me in a top Wood Bat league as contrasted with a D1 which might struggle in W's but gets individual exposure by the competition.

This assumes that the coaches staffs at each can develop the talent to a much higher level going out than coming in, which is another very overlooked aspect of college baseball once, generally,  we get outside the top 40-50 programs.

Here's an interesting example. One of the local D3's in my area puts out highlight videos from their games. Quick 5 minute game highlights. I found the clips interesting and  kept up with them for a few seasons. I noticed one player who continually hit well and hit several homeruns. I learned that he transferred after his freshman season at a good D1 program. He did get playing time as a freshman, but transferred back closer to home to the D3. And he raked for three seasons as a D3 player.

 

I recently spoke to someone who knew about this player. I was told that he didn't love baseball, and the stress and grind of playing D1 was more than he wanted to deal with. So, he chose the small private D3, which was the kind of school he really wanted to attend. And playing at the D3 level made baseball fun again.

 

 

 

I would echo what others have said, especially the above quoted poster.

 

There is at least one thread (cant remember how to find the link) about the number of players drafted broken down by D1-2-3 that also includes HS and JUCO. If memory serves me correctly, D3 was at the bottom of the list.

That of course is not to say there are not plenty of talented kids playing in D3 as some might choose a John Hopkins or Trinity for higher academic needs and still be able to play. Rather it seems that scouts might view the general lower competition level as an X factor in trying to determine whether they could handle a higher level of competition.

Vector is correct that there are about 15-25 D3 players drafted each yr, and most are pitchers. With the shorter draft you do have a some signing non drafted contracts which don't show up in the stats so the exact number is not known, but if being drafted is high on the list you should be in a major top 50 D1 program not a lower end D1, but kids are taken from all types of programs. Playing in the wood bat summer leagues then becomes a high priority as infieldad and CPNM mentioned. 

If a HS senior is faced with a choice of a lower/low level D1 or a top level D3, I am having trouble with interfacing those options, realistically, with the next level, i.e., the draft. 

Certainly I appreciate the player and his parents have a view and dream of the next level.

However, top level D1 coaches or even mid-level are not. MLB scouts are not

That player we are discussing has to be a completely different player as a college junior or senior.  Do we really think a consistently  lower level D1 coaching staff is more likely to develop the talent and skills of that player better than a top level D3 coach?

To be completely honest, putting the "next level" of the draft and  Milb 3-4 years later as a factor into the choice out of HS between a high level D3 and lower level D1 does not compute with me.

Oh my...bolded is exactly how our family is feeling right now, we have a strong 2017 that is trending up quickly on the scale right now, his coaches have told him if he continues to work hard good D1 is reasonable goal...I can't but help feel like 4 years of top D3 would be better than grinding D1 at a mid-major to earn your spot. plus I like and he likes winning! We have been blessed (and have good financial planner) so cost is not an issue - the quality of the years are the most important thing. The draft is totally dismissed in my house - out of your control and not even discussed.

As a general rule you should only strive "to play at the next level up" Frosh it's JV, JV it's Varsity, Varsity it's college.....

Is baseball the dream or is it a top school? 

 

As for baseball, there are very few D3 kids competing in the top summer wood bat leagues at the collegiate level.. important from a scouting perspective.  There is maybe one or two D3 guys on my son's pro (independent league) roster.  When he was in affiliated ball, I can't remember any.

 

Figure it is 10x harder to make it as a D3 guy.  That's probably a good rule of thumb.

 

The original question is level of competition.  If the level of competition is a question, go D1.  If school is the overriding concern, figure baseball is probably a dead end going D3 so focus on the quality of the school.. and maybe the top-quality D3 is a good choice in that case.

Highest level DIII will have some players very capable of playing DI And not necessarily at the lowest DI level.

 

The lowest level DIs will have players that would have a hard time starting at the very top DIII programs.

 

Also, players develop at different times.  Some are fully developed while still in high school.  Others develop in college.  

 

The DIs get the most scouting attention, but small colleges get scouted, too.  Pitchers with a great arm can go pretty much anywhere and still create professional interest.  Position players  would be advised to attend the very highest level DIII schools if they do go DIII.  But only if they are interested in playing professional baseball after college.

Over the years I have seen many very talented DIII position players that have been overlooked.  Not so many pitchers getting overlooked.  The new CBA has created a lot of opportunities for college seniors (No leverage... Clubs saving money). I think this might really help some small college players get an opportunity.

 

If education is the only important thing... Forget about the baseball part and find the best education. But I would try to have my cake and eat it too.

The best D-III schools (Linfield, UW-Whitewater, Eastern Connecticut, Cal Lutes, Marietta, etc) could easily be favorites over some of the bottom feeders of D-I in a three game series, especially if the D-III school in question was JR/SR heavy.

How does talent compare at top D3 vs Bottom D1?

 

Every year, I love to read the responses to this question.  Unfortunately, we never get to see actual D1 programs going head to head against D3s.  So, everything is purely conjecture, radar guns and stopwatches.  Certainly, we can look at the players who are drafted out of each Division, but that would not tell us how they would match up in a game of winner take all.  Drafted players out of each Division tell us how many players have projected to the next level compared to others in a draft pool.  So, that doesn't tell us what we want to know. 

 

So, at this point we are left with conjecture, radar guns and stopwatches unless we turn this question around to what is most important to the recruit who has the opportunity to choose between these two types of programs.   I think the question has a lot of value when a recruit has an opportunity to play at a top D3 program or a bottom D1 program.  I've always advocated that something has to be most important to a recruit whether it is financial, academic or athletic. All are important, but one of those three things is going to be the primary driver to the school selected.  So, I think the question should read.....How does (your) talent compare at top D3 vs Bottom D1 in the context of your goals?  If looked at from a broader context you can assign your value and your measurement and forget about how they would play each other in a game (not going to happen).  So evaluating your own personal opportunities at either of these programs is the only way to compare them.  JMO.

I'm not sure the conjectural question of how talent compares at various levels of college baseball really addresses SluggerDad's situation.

 

It sounds like SluggerFamily is like a lot of families here:  good enough ballplayer that it's not totally unrealistic to dream, but realistic enough about the chances not to want to cut any corners on education while keeping the baseball dream alive.

 

In situations like this, the question isn't so much how the levels compare but what effect choosing a top D3 over a bottom D1 will have on a position player's baseball dreams.  Personally, I don't think it matters very much.  Mom and dad can steer SluggerSon to the best-fit school without guilt about ruining his baseball future.

 

Here's my logic:

 

Lots of good players coming out of high school don't get drafted and don't get big offers from major conference D1 schools.  But they still dream of going pro.  So they hope to "catch up" to the established prospects through dint of hard work, determination, and maybe a little late-blooming action.

 

Each year, a very few players do beat the odds and get drafted out of small colleges even though they weren't prospects when they were 18 or 19 or 20 or even 21.  

 

Those rare exceptions prove the rule that it is very, very hard to catch up to players who have better facilities, better coaching, more games, and better competition--and are themselves learning how to work harder and smarter each year. 

 

My take:  It's like the Dilbert comic where Dogbert sells used lottery tickets for half price.  He argues they are a bargain because the chance of winning is almost identical to the chance of winning with a full-priced new ticket.  

 

If your pro chances depend on a used lottery ticket coming through, it doesn't really matter whether your used lottery ticket is low D1 or high D3.  It's still a used lottery ticket.  When you're battling extremely long odds, you might as well wage the battle in the most suitable environment for you.

you nailed my concerns exactly Swampboy. And your reply contains lots of food for thought. 

 

On the other hand, just a few minutes ago,   the kid just got a  very encouraging email from the recruitment coordinator at a D1 in a very competitive conference -- in fact, one of the most competitive in the country (though this particular school isn't (yet) the top dog in that conference --  to let him know that they are coming to watch him in some upcoming events.   So maybe his big dreams may be more realistic than I have been thinking.  I certainly wouldn't at all want to squelch his dreams.  And ultimately the choices are his to make.  But mom and dad  definitely  do not want him to lose sight of the bigger picture of what a great college experience can do for him in the long run (even if his ultimate baseball dreams don't fully pan out, and baseball is  just one part of a rich and rewarding college experience. ) 

Sluggerdad you have got some great advice in this thread. The only thing I would add is it is important for you to keep your son's emotions balanced. There will be emails that get your son all excited about because a coach is coming to watch, then he may not show, they will say they will call and some do and some don't. Sometimes he will go weeks without contact. We had a coach say (during a visit) that he was going to present an offer and we never heard back from him. Just remember some advice from my wife on the subject "during the recruiting process baseball coaches are a bunch of used car salesmen" They will say things that mean one thing to them and something completely different to a recruit. Bring him up when he is down and bring him down when he get's too high. It's a long stressful process.

 

Good luck!!!

Also do your homework - you have to know who you are playing for. Your coaches must put development first and respect their players. Very few can compete at the top of their conference AND do their players right - a perfect example is the Tim Corbin / Derek Johnson / Scott Brown group of guys at Vanderbilt.

I resurrected this thread because my son’s D3 team played OU this weekend and this was my first opportunity to see some top D3 and D1 kids on the same field. (Other than summer leagues)

 

First OU won the game 8-5, however overall it was pretty competitive was even though both teams were rolling through a lot of players. TU was in the game the whole time, a couple of plays here or there were the difference in the game.

 

The two big differences I saw were pitching depth as well as the “length” of the roster from a hitting perspective. Defense was similar except for the SS at OU got to everything and took a couple of “hits” away. I believe he was the Big-12 freshmen of the year last year and I can see why.

 

Pitching.

 

OU kept rolling out kids all throwing 90+ with tops at 97, 2-3ea were 93-95. Until they got late in the game every pitcher was 90+. TU had two kids sitting solidly above 90 topping at 94. 5 of their 7 were 88-89 and touching 90. This was the single thing that stood out to me, except for maybe the difference in the OU 2-3-4 batters. For reference TU probably easily has a top 10 D3 pitching staff and probably 4 of their pitchers could be on a D1 staff.  They have 3 pitchers who I think are draft material.

 

Hitting

 

Overall bat speed appeared higher with the middle of the order D1 kids, plus 1-9 they were deeper. TU had 2 players who I thought had D1 power, with probably 6 of their starting position players making a D1 roster. There was a noticeable gap in power between the 2-3-4 hitters in the OU lineup. (from both teams) Their DH hit a ball that still has not come down. (pitcher -  note to self, don’t hang a slider to the number 4 batter )

 

Overall

 

Overall I thought on any given day TU could take a game from a top D1, if they rolled out their top couple of pitchers they could easily hang with most teams in the country. If you got below their top 5 pitchers it could get ugly, where the OU staff was 10+ deep. The 2-3-4 batters at OU had noticeable bat speed differences to everyone on the field. 

 

The neatest thing about the night was that baseball took a second seat to breast cancer awareness and fundraising. Both teams decked out in pink gear, you could see the friendship that Coach Hughes and Scannell have and that extended itself into the players and fans.  

 

http://www.soonersports.com/Vi...amp;ATCLID=209754773

 

 

 

BOF, Interesting story!

 

BTW, Do you have good/comprehensive video link(s) that has body workout routines help increase pitcher's velocities?  

 

Have you heard some pitchers have cycles (ups and downs) in pitching velocities? 

 

Thanks.

Please don't let him run a more than a mile - or this thread will explode!! 

Thanks BOF ... Very interesting. I have wondered about this.

Very interesting BOF. 

 

Somebody posted this ranking of the D1 conferences a while back:  http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2014/conferencerpi

 

So if a top D3 school like Trinity can hang with a team in one of the best conferences in the country, do you think it's fair to say that they'd be likely to beat teams lower in the D1 food chain, like Horizon League, Summit League, or Patriot League?

IMO, the top 10 or so DIII teams could beat any DI team in the country on a given day.  After all, this is baseball.   On a given day college teams have beaten top Major League teams in exhibition games.  Does that mean they would beat the lesser MLB teams consistently?  Truth is, they would have a hard time winning, let alone on any kind of consistent basis.  Those baseball scholarships are suppose to mean something and they are a very big advantage.

 

When you see a top DIII program you will see an outstanding coach. Someone that can develop talent and knows how to win.  The chances of seeing some of the best coaches at the DIII level is much better than seeing the best players. And those coaches are looking for the players that the DI programs missed. So in the end, you see several DI ability players at the other levels. But you don't see very many high draft types like there are at DI.

 

Bottom line, there are some great DIII programs.  There are some extremely talented DIII players.  There are a lot of great DIII coaches.  But there is a reason they have different levels.

JCG, You get the right kid on the hill for a game and a team like Trinity, Linfield, Marietta, UW Stevens Point, etc can beat anyone in the country, forget about conference. We are talking about one game however. You put someone in the bottom half of the pitching rotation on the hill and it could get really ugly, really quick. These teams are really thin on top shelf pitching (when compared to a top conference D1). Watching OU run out pitchers,  I kept thinking to myself "how many guys do they have that can throw 95", it was really really impressive. 

 

Late add as I just saw PG's post. He is 100% correct. You take some of the top D1 scholarship players and they are much better than the top D3 players, and in fact they are much better than the average D1 player. You put a couple of them on a team and they can carry a club over the long haul. A top D3 team does not have the depth to compete in the long run in a full conference schedule. Zimmerman (a former D3 pitcher threw a MLB no hitter, Ben Klimesh (ex Trinity) was pitching in the Arizona Fall League All Star game last week. 

Excellent discussion.  Great insights/perspectives from the vets of these boards are really appreciated.

DPBpitcher, sent you a DM

In 2009 Trinity College (CT) won the D3 national championship. In 2010 I was watching a Harvard at Boston College game. A Harvard dad I chatted up a conversation with was from Connecticut. I asked him if he was familiar with Trinity. I asked if he thought last year's Trinity team could beat Harvard. It turned out he was friends with Coach Decker from having been college teammates. He had asked Decker the same question. Ironically, Decker is now the Harvard coach. His feeling was yes, with Tim Kiely on the mound. Kiely had incredible command. He had two non intentional walk his senior year. He was drafted in the 28th round, moved up from short season quickly and ultimately made it to AAA. The team also had four other players signed as free agents over the next two years. However, he felt in a best of seven that would be the only game they could win due to the difference in depth.

 

Sometimes the difference is between the ears. That dad pointed out the struggling Harvard pitcher on the mound. He was getting lit up against BC. He said the kid had the velocity and the stuff to beat BC. He excelled in Ivy games. But he lacked confidence against major conference teams.

This is why the one game do or die wildcard game is an abomination.  The quality of a baseball team is simply not measured by a single game  (unless it's game 7 all hands on deck time in the WS or something).   A single game does not test the depth of a roster.    They really gotta figure out how to make the wildcard series a series, rather than just a single winner take all game. 

 

But I digress.

 

The lowest level DI's are DI in name only, A couple of years ago a DI decided to drop down into my son's tough DII conference. After a 7-16 conference record and a perfect game pitched against them by one of our pitchers, they decided to run back to DI the very next year. This year in the fall our DII played a nearby DI in a doubleheader. We crushed them 22-4 and 14-4 and sadly most of their players don't look like they could even make our DII. So there is no doubt in my mind that an elite DIII like Trinity and others would beat those types of DI's most of the time.

This observation by PG is what every player and parent probably should consider  if they are facing the dilemma of a top DIII vs a walk on at D1 programs #100 to 300 or a scholarship opportunity at maybe 200-300. Just because the program might be D3 or D2, that distinction does not apply to the coaching and development a player can receive.

As BOF said the difference is mainly in depth. Lots of DIII schools have 1-3 really good players who contribute and carry the team, but one injury or bad year can cause the team to tank pretty quickly. The pitching at my DIII dropped off super quick after the first few decent arms. Seeing guys throw high-70's once the game got out of hand wasn't uncommon.

There is no doubt there are DII programs stronger than lots of DI programs. This is because they do a better job of recruiting.  Also there are DI programs that aren't fully funded.  Still this becomes much tougher at DIII with no baseball scholarships.  

 

Sometimes there is money available at small colleges, institutional grants and academic money.  However, when we ask the best high school players which colleges they are most interested in, it almost always is a DI college, along with a few Tampa or other top DII programs.  Hardly ever is it a DIII college.  So it appears obvious where the most talented end up. That said, extremely talented players get missed by DI and DII programs every year.  The very best DIII colleges do a great job of finding those players. Some also look for the projectable types and develop those players. Sometimes by the time these players are juniors, they are better than most DI players.

And a minimum scholarship + probable bench spot is often worse than big academic money and a much better chance to play 3-4 years at the D-III. Scouts don't miss premium talent at DIII schools anymore, it's not like it used to be when Matt DeSalvo went undrafted. (Look up his stats sometime - one of the most dominant pitchers I've ever seen in person, and he went undrafted!)

 

EDIT: Oh what the heck. Here they are! Career (1999-2003): 53-6, 1.79 ERA, 395.2 IP, 603 K