How Good is My Son...How Do I REALLY KNOW?

The only way to tell is by how well he does against the best competition. If your son is playing above his level and against the higest level you will get a pretty good idea. All players have off days so expect them.
You should look for consistanly good play over a reasonable time period.
You also shold get independant advice but even that can be miss leading.

Great questions!

I know some people do it based off of stats but that does not begin to tell the whole story or perhaps even a relevant story imho. For instance, some kids are unbelievable hitters until the velocity goes above 75 mph. Obviously, stats will also support the better players as well.

I used my own eyes to compare my son with other kids and ABSOLUTELY kept my opinions to myself. It was no one elses business and many people only wanted to offer negatives in the first place.

My technique was basically to observe what happened when we faced better competition. Some kids were afraid when the harder throwers showed up. Others could not produce against better pitchers. Still yet others could not play consistent defense or throw consistent strikes if there was pressure. Another thing I observed was I would see my son make plays that I did not see other kids make. That might have been the best evidence I had for things.

When he tried out for his college team, I saw him stand out above all other kids at the camp. We could have stuck around to see what the coaches opinions were but I already knew what the answer was based off what I had observed. Also, I already believed we had made a good faith effort to demonstrate our interest in the program so I wanted any further contact with the program to be unsolicited on their part. About a week later, the Coach called with an offer and the rest is history. At that time, he asked why we did not hang around to discuss things. I told him I wanted to see if their interest was genuine and I turned out to be right.

I would tell any parent not to wear rose-colored glasses but at the same time, they need to continually and objectively compare their son's talent to other kids who are also considered talented. For me, I didn't seem to need someone to tell me "Watch this kid, he can really pitch." I could tell when some kid could pitch and would use that information when my son played them. Obviously, high-level showcases are a place where you can find the truly talented to measure your kids by but even then the whole story is often not told. At the end of the day, it is you and your son who have to make the decisions and no one else can do that for you imho.

One other point that some people use (often times incorrectly imho) is one-time anecdotal evidence. For instance, just because your pitcher just struck out a nationaly ranked hitter does not then mean in and of itself that your pitcher should also be so ranked. Evaluation needs to be made over time imho where performance plus consitency is measured. Similarly, even though you may have not gotten the showcase ranking you might have liked does not necessarily define a player over the long haul. Sometimes you just have to believe in yourself when there are forces who may see otherwise.

At the risk of getting yelled at, I am going to link this topic into the main forum because it seems interesting and relevant.

I like watching my sons play more than any other players at any level. Since I only like top quality things, they must be as good as I think they are!

This is very interesting. I always felt I knew quite a bit about baseball, quite a bit about our son's ability and quite a bit about how the two merge.
In reality, though, I honestly believe the only way you really know how good your son is as a player is when his coaches, at each level to which he progresses, has his name on the line up card.
The coaches are the ones who see players 5-7 days per week and judge their talents against their peers at that level. As players progress, and the coaching improves, you can get a better sense of their talents when their name is in the lineup.
In our experience, even having his name in the line up in college wasn't a true barometer because of the DIII label. However, when he went to top summer league programs and had his name in the lineup, when they selected All Star teams and his name was in the lineup, you began to know.
As CD very accurately emphasizes, it is the combination of consistency and quality of play that measures talent and skill.
Most of us, as parents, don't see our son's enough to make the types of judgments with any sense of accuracy. I am not convinced showcases do that either because they are a glimpse in time.
For me, looking back, I only "really knew" when the line ups, at every level he played, were posted and his name was on it.

On a humorous/sarcastic note (please don't take it too seriously -- though there is some element of truth to it...), when we were at a seminar on college recruiting at our high school with our middle son (back in the late 90's), one of the players asked the presenter how they could know what level would be appropriate for them. The presenter said, "As a rule of thumb, probably one level below where you think you should be, and 2 levels below where your DAD thinks you should be!"

You need to see him play for and against a wide variety of competition. Being the tiny town we are, the high school coach also coached the summer teams, with always the same kids for competition and teammates. Until we were willing to drive to a larger area and compete for and against stiffer competition, there was no way to tell. In fact we were under the impression other guys were more talented as they never sat. Since then it's been great fun leaving the small town behind and a journey of discovery for the young man. I learned I always underestimated my own kid and to knock that off. He loves proving people wrong.
I also believe there is a work ethic that can almost only be instilled by being underestimated.

quote:

Originally posted by lhpx2:

"As a rule of thumb, probably one level below where you think you should be, and 2 levels below where your DAD thinks you should be!

AMEN TO THAT!

I always thought this a strange question.
If you have to ask/wonder maybe not that good.

BHD, would that mean that if you don't question/wonder, that means your son is that good?
Not sure how the two correlate?

Very good post!
How good is my son?
How good will be my son?
Is my son a prospect?
it is not about performance, it is not about hitting, pitching, or fielding. It is about tools!

How is the strenght of his arm comparing him with the rest of the team?
How is his running speed comparing him with the others around?
At batting practice, how hard he hits the ball comparing him with the other hitters?
At fielding practice, how smooth he catchs it the ball comparing him with the rest of fielders?

If your son is at the top of the list when you answer this questions, your son is good, will be good, and could become a prospect.

quote:

How do you as a parent or parent/coach REALLY know if your son is any good? Are we looking at his play through rose colored "glasses" on or is he just that good?

He's as good as other knowledgeable people tell you he is.

quote:

BHD, would that mean that if you don't question/wonder, that means your son is that good?
Not sure how the two correlate?

If you have watched your son play high level ball for the last 5 or 6 years I would say that you should know wether he has any ability.
How can you go to games , watch your son get picked for teams and not have a clue about his ability and potential ?

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
He's as good as other knowledgeable people tell you he is.

I don't like to brag too much, but at age 8 son was at a winter skills developing event at a local D-1 for all comers 8 to 18 years old. At the end, the head coach was talking to the attendees and used my son as an example in his talk. He said he could see son had the necessary quick-twitch muscles and also had the best arm of all those at the event. I was a little skeptical at the time, but never forgot his words. Son has gone on to prove the coach knew what he was talking about.

quote:

I don't like to brag too much, but at age 8 son was at a winter skills developing event at a local D-1 for all comers 8 to 18 years old. At the end, the head coach was talking to the attendees and used my son as an example in his talk. He said he could see son had the necessary quick-twitch muscles and also had the best arm of all those at the event. I was a little skeptical at the time, but never forgot his words. Son has gone on to prove the coach knew what he was talking about.

Meaning..........he is a good select player now, outstanding high schooler, or is now contributing at the collegiate level?

Anyway congrats!!

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
Meaning..........he is a good select player now, outstanding high schooler, or is now contributing at the collegiate level?

Anyway congrats!!

Thanks. Two out of the three so far.

Altough I don't put much stock in the pre 15 yos you certainly get an idea over the years wether your son has any skills. there are too many factors that can come in to side track a young player until they reach college age.

Let’s see, some ongoing measurement tools:

Play little league and be a stand out
Get on to the all star team and be a stand out
Join a tournament team and be a stand out
Be a stand out on the tournament team which does well in the local area
Be a stand out on the tournament team which does well in the regional area
Be a stand out on the tournament team which does well on the National basis
Go to a high school which has a very strong team in a strong league and be a stand out
Be a stand out on the high school team which wins league
Be a stand out on the high school team which wins their section
Be a stand out on the high school team which wins in strong high school tournaments
Go to an elite travel team
Be a stand out on an elite travel team which does well in the regional area
Be a stand out on an elite travel team which wins national tournaments
Participate in local showcase and be a stand out
Participate in regional showcase and be a stand out
Participate in National showcase and be a stand out
Get invited to National Invitational tryouts
Get invited to tryout for the USA National team
Be a stand out for the USA National team
Go to a strong college team and be a stand out…..the cycle continues on.

The one thing for sure; until you get into the MLB HOF, there is usually someone better and you can always improve!

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
Let’s see, some ongoing measurement tools:

Play little league and be a stand out
Get on to the all star team and be a stand out
Join a tournament team and be a stand out
Be a stand out on the tournament team which does well in the local area
Be a stand out on the tournament team which does well in the regional area
Be a stand out on the tournament team which does well on the National basis
Go to a high school which has a very strong team in a strong league and be a stand out
Be a stand out on the high school team which wins league
Be a stand out on the high school team which wins their section
Be a stand out on the high school team which wins in strong high school tournaments
Go to an elite travel team
Be a stand out on an elite travel team which does well in the regional area
Be a stand out on an elite travel team which wins national tournaments
Participate in local showcase and be a stand out
Participate in regional showcase and be a stand out
Participate in National showcase and be a stand out
Get invited to National Invitational tryouts
Get invited to tryout for the USA National team
Be a stand out for the USA National team
Go to a strong college team and be a stand out…..the cycle continues on.

The one thing for sure; until you get into the MLB HOF, there is usually someone better and you can always improve!

Short version: He's as good as other knowledgeable people tell you he is. Also, good is a relative term based on what the player aspires to achieve.

Let's be honest here, we all know a talented player when we see one, including our own.

I think what is important is not what we always see, but what others see and how our players see themselves. It is our responsibility to provide opportunities for them to compare themselves against others (not just on the HS field) and to provide opportunities to improve.

I am strongly against a parent telling their player they are better than others, just as I am strongly against a parent jumping all over their player because they don't meet their (parents) expectations. There are some things our kids have to figure out in life and where they belong and where they want to be in the scheme of things is up to them. The only time we got on our son a** was if he was lazy. We offered support if had a bad outing. We never said you are better than that, we always said you could do better than that. We never compared him in conversation with him to anyone but himself.

I agree with some points that IFD and CD have made, especially consistancy. If you faced a top player one time and he beat you (either being a pitcher or hitter), wa he that good or were you having a bad day and vice versa? You need to face that top player quite a few times, with metal and with wood, maybe for 2-3 years before you can determine if you have it or you don't, that's a true test, IMO. My son used a few players he faced as his benchmark. One was Matt Weiters. On occassion he struck him out, on occassion he blooped him out, on occasion he got on base and also got jacked. But each time it was a battle and there were quite a few of them. He knew he was most likely facing the best hitter in college baseball and did well. He learned a lot from it all.
Seeing your son in the lineup consistantly through his career is also a good measure as to his ability, especially if you face tough competition.

JMO.

TMM_Dad,

Now, now. I know your son well, and you and I both know he'll never make it at the college level!

.

Does it really matter what I, as a parent, think?

I am there to support HIS passion, to help him chase HIS dreams. To use baseball as a means to help him grow and learn life lessons. To use baseball as a way for us to connect. To help him develop as an athlete. If he remains passionate, and ambitious I will get him “seen” and other decision makers whose careers depend upon such assessments will give us a clearer picture.

I have seen many parents overestimate their sons abilities, and get them artificially pushed forward...temporarily....However reality always catches up.

I have seen parents who were ambivalent about their sons talent, yet their sons managed to blaze some pretty amazing trails on talent alone.

As TR said in another thread...

quote:

...sit back and relax --let you son do his thing and let it all come together--- your son cannot be what he isnt--he is what he is...

Great advice.

44
.

quote:

Does it really matter what I, as a parent, think?

It means everything imho. My good friend why would you say something like this? Now if you meant, does what my opinion (as a parent) matter to what OTHER PEOPLE think then I agree, it means nothing.

I take another view of parental evaluation. *90% of parents will rate their sons "above average" during the pre high school and high school years. However only *10% of those players actually become "above average" players. The parents of those above average players are called respected old timers on the HSBBW ---- the others parents that felt the same way about their sons, but failed to guess correctly, have faded away. Trust me I'm not an evaluation expert as TPM suggest ---- I'm just a parent that was lucky and fortunate to have an above average player.

*The percentages (90% and 10%) are used as examples only and are not the actual percentages.

quote:

*The percentages (90% and 10%) are used as examples only and are not the actual percentages.

How about 99% and 1% Not sure if you meant it that way, but I got a nice chuckle from your post!

Personally - I rarely thought about "how good he was".

I usually just thought about whether he was good enough to hit the next pitch - or catch the next one hit to him.

Sometimes - he was - and sometimes he wasnt.

Then I went home.

Fungo, my comment was meant to be funny. I too got a chuckle from your post.

I understand what 44 is trying to say.
I understand what CD is trying to say.

I have a friend whose son was not a very good baseball player compared to the other players on our pre HS fall team. He attended a magnet school for pre medical studies, in a predominately black school (they do that here to integrate). The school is not known for baseball, but basketball and football. He was the star on his very weak HS baseball team. One day at a game when we were playing against one another, she turned to me to tell me that she knew DK had a bright future in baseball, and although she knew her son was not that good, as far as she was concerned it was her son and he was the best.

I had no problem with that statement.

quote:

Personally - I rarely thought about "how good he was".

its - the fact you used the word "rarely" means the thought has crossed your mind. I think what you are trying to say (or imply) is this game is about production. Am I missing something?

CD - you arent missing a thing.

I think the game is (and always should be) - all about production.

I know that isnt always the case - but that doesnt change my mind.

I have to admit I think I might have underestimated where my son might stack up in baseball. Would you call that Gray Colored glasses?


My guy has been very fortunate to have great baseball mentors that have pushed him to pursue some incredible opportunities to showcase his skills. If you can give your son a chance to be seen by decision makers and play against the best competition you can find there are people out there with greater baseball smarts that you that will let you know where he stacks up.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
TMM_Dad,

Now, now. I know your son well, and you and I both know he'll never make it at the college level!

Good one, MD.

If you watch alot of baseball, and see that your son is making plays, hitting, fielding and doing the same kind of things at his age that are similar to those of the great players in the MLB, and he is always voted into the post season tournaments as a starter, then I would say you might have a player with potential.

That's one side of the coin...

The other side is coaching and development environment. If these two are not in sync with your players potential his talent will be retarded and he will not develope properly. Result will be when it comes time to be seriously evaluated his skills will not match up.

The variables on that side of the coin are much more important then his athletic ability. Without proper coaching and development environment he will lose his confidence and doubt whether he even belongs on the same field with the other good players...even though he may be the best of all of them...

Seen this happen...get your son onto private teams with the highest level of competition and use the in season leagues (schools) to keep him tuned up for summerball.
JMO

This is what we have done, besides just using our eyes:

1) Try to get the objective things measured when it is appropriate to do this (60-time, throwing velocity, home to first, etc.)
2) Look at the semi-objective things (stats relative to the league)
3) Get other people's opinions (what role does the coach assign to the player and how important is that role, did he get post-season recognition, get a scout evaluation).

When we got to the stage of choosing colleges with our first two children, we did the third item differently. Our daughter (different sport, but the concepts are similar) was on a state championship volleyball team and was voted by the PA coaches as a first team all-state player. She had played lots of club ball and HS ball, so it was easy to see where she fit (taking into account her size - too short for D I) and she was able to get in to the college she desired. Our son (the baseball player) decided kind of late that he wanted to play in college, so we just got a pro scout evaluation for 1 & 3 on the list. This helped us to pick the right level of school and his process has gone smoothly, so far.

I would highly encourage high school parents take their sons to some D1 College games this spring. Get there early for infield practice.

Go to some of the early tournaments at the end of February and first of March that are being played across the country. I know that you will be at the start of your high school season but there will be games played on Sunday that you can go to. You drive all over the country to go to showcases - take the time to drive to see the college competition.

It is an eye-opening experience that will show your son (and you) more than any words you can say. JMHO but I think it will help both of you see where or if your son can achieve that level of play. Many outstanding players on that college field will never make it at the next level.

Edited post: Also go to see the D2, D3, JUCO, and NAIA play!

This is an interesting question.

My son wants to play college baseball at a high level. Is he good enough? I honestly don't know.

As he enters his junior season in high school, one of the more critical times, it would be nice to really know - to have some kind of definitive objective benchmark. We all look for validation.

But really there is no such thing. The best you have is a variety of proxies - opinion of knowledgable people, stats, measures of skills, expressed interest of college coaches, etc.

I've pretty much stopped thinking much about it, because it will all become clear in the next year. It will take care of itself. The only opinion that really matters in the question of whether he is good enough or not to play at a high level in college is the opinion of the coach who wants him on his team.

So, to answer the question this thread poses: NO - we don't REALLY know how good our sons are. And I think that it is probably better not to worry about it all that much - just let him play and prove how good he is to the people whose opinion on that question really matters!

I agree with not worrying about it. You play the best competition you can. We were lucky to be able to face college guys/ex pros for the last couple of years before college.
We knew without any doubt that son could pitch against them. His 1st time at 16 just about to turn 17 he was on a 19U elite team. He started a game against a team that had expros and college guys. He struck out 5 in the 2 innings he was scheduled to pitch including a guy who held the historical BA and HR record at a U in Virginia and who played 2 years Independant League. He struck out a guy who just got signed last year out of coastal Carolina. Another held the batting record at a strong university.
We were fortunate to have the oportunity to test my son's skills against guys who were college players. You could see him handle these guys like a seasoned pitcher. No nerves and just flat out dominant.
We had no doubt he could play colleg ball. I also believe he could pitch in the pros but I doubt he will get the chance so college will probably be it. I say that even though he has been told by pro scouts he has the ability. I just don't see his velocity improvimg enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
So, to answer the question this thread poses: NO - we don't REALLY know how good our sons are. And I think that it is probably better not to worry about it all that much - just let him play and prove how good he is to the people whose opinion on that question really matters!

Good post. I agree strongly with the part about not worrying about it, let them play to prove to the right people whose opinions counts.

We never worried about it, neither did son. He went to USA tryouts early in HS and although he didn't make the final cut, he played with and could keep up with the best in the class before him (2003), many drafted players and some playing in MLB. That was enough for HIM to decide he had the stuff, he just had to figure out what to do with it. He told us not to sweat it, so we didn't. I think that is why what we did was limited as to what others have done.

BBHD,
I am amazed that you remember this stuff, I don't remember what I had for breakfast this morning, let alone who son pitched against with details.

I had a parent tell me a few years back "Coach we have alot of guys on this team that can play in college. Why dont we have any coaches up here taking looks at them?

I asked him "Have you ever been to see a college game?" He had this funny look on his face and didnt respond. I then said "Have you been up to see Louisburg College play? They are right down the road and they are juco. Have you ever been to see any level of college baseball?" This time he said "No I dont have time to go watch games Im too busy working and taking my son to his own games and practices." Well I then said "Then how do you know if any of these players are capable of playing at the next level?" Again no response.

You go and watch top level hs players play. You go to college games. D-1 , D-2 , D-3 , juco and community college baseball. You educate yourself and then you make sure you see reality and not what you want to see.

If your son does not stand out on the field with other hs players then thats a clue. Personally I dont think its very hard if your realistic with yourself. And I dont think its very hard if you go out and see whats out there. I knew my oldest son was not a very good baseball player. I knew my youngest was.

Get out of the little pond and take a visit to the ocean. If your the big fish in the little pond go see just how big a fish you are by visiting the ocean. If your just another fish in the pond that is your answer right there. And if your a minnow in the pond "come to grips with reality". Before you get swallowed by the whale.

CM,
You bring up some good points and I like your no nonsense get to the bottom line posts.

I think maybe I just assumed that if ones son has desire to play the college game, you've made it your business to go watch a game with him. We told son if you want to play top D1 baseball you go watch D1 baseball. He grew up on UM so it was a good opportunity for him. For a parent to just assume that every HS player is college material is whacky..IMO.

I remember Jim Morris giving his speech about what it takes to play UM baseball, position by poisition. Pretty tough stuff, IMO. I wonder how many folks and players really listen to those HC speeches at camp.

So with that in mind, I have to say it IS important to know how really good or not good your son is, and take the necessary steps to find out (showcases, top tournies, watching college games). This should give a parent a benchmark as to where he might fit in.