How Horrible would it be

Oh, yeah, he is a LHP 6'3" 176, mid 80's has been able to hit 91.

Hopefully Observer 44 or 08Dad will see this. They may have good info for you concerning this question. Good luck!

Suicidal.

Well, just because he's not playing, doesn't mean his clock hasn't started. He has 5 years from the 1st day of full time classes at a 4 year institution to complete 4 years of playing. Take a year off, now he has 4 years to complete 4 playing. Decide to transfer, sit out a year.

I don't see any upside to this, IMHO.

Sorry, he is proposing to attend a JC that does not offer sports.

Midlo- why is it suicidal? What difference does it make that he is working on getting "bigger & stronger" or that he would be recovering from an injury...what exactly would be the deciding factor, what if his family went through some tragic occurance and he was unable to participate, etc. what is the difference? Just curious.

Just for clarity, if the player ultimely transfers to a D1, the 5 year clock starts on first full-time enrollment at any collegiate institution, including a JC.
If he transfers to a D2 or D3, he is eligible until he completes 10 full time semesters, again at any collegiate institution.

Is it suicide? Maybe not for a pitcher. We often complain that scouts place too much reliance on the radar gun, but in this situation, the radar gun would be friendly to this "self-redshirted" pitcher, assuming he can improve to consistently touch 90. I think any JC in the country would give an untested sophomore an extended fall tryout if he can routinely touch 90.

The idea was to make sure he could transfer to the school of his choice.
I am understanding that is does not matter if he is at a JC or a state/uc or whatever --Once he becomes a fulltime student, his eligibility starts, correct?
Thus, he would have to claim a redshirt/greyshirt in order to maintain his full eligibilty?

He was accepted to all of the state schools that he applied to. He was a qualifier out of high school.
An additional question, can you transfer after the first year at JC if you were a qualifier out of high school?

It's suicidal because he will fall off the map in the recruiting process. And you don't get better as a pitcher by sitting out a year. He will lose velocity even if he does get bigger and stronger.

If he's not big and strong enough now, who's going to come a-callin' when he's been out of baseball for a year?

Maybe he could try a D-3 with a tryout process in the fall. But most of those, based on the reports I've heard, are not the most open of processes.

There is nowhere for a 19-year-old to go showcase himself to recruiters. And when would he do that? During his freshman year of college?

I think this is a pipe dream. Sorry to be blunt, but I felt someone needed to throw cold water on this idea before someone goes horribly astray.

I agree 100% with Midlo! You need to stay in there and play and be seen. JUCO is fine, but you better be playing baseball! There is plenty of time to get "bigger and stronger" in the Fall. That's what the Fall is for.

Agree with Midlo - main problem is recruiting.

Go to a JC WITH a baseball program and play. If your description is accurate, then he would definitely pitch. If it is not, then it is hard to give you some advice.

Although I don't think it is suicidal, because he can play summer ball to showcase himself. He will simply be a year behind.

If we are talking about getting "mentally" bigger and stronger too, then taking a year off will not help. You get better at pitching by pitching.

If he had little or no high school stats upon which to base recruiting, why would he take a year off? He needs the work. You need to think this through clearly.

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
The idea was to make sure he could transfer to the school of his choice.
I am understanding that is does not matter if he is at a JC or a state/uc or whatever --Once he becomes a fulltime student, his eligibility starts, correct?
Thus, he would have to claim a redshirt/greyshirt in order to maintain his full eligibilty?

At the risk of being over-pedantic here, let's look at NCAA eligibility requirements. Besides academic, behavioral and talent concerns, there are two prongs to being eligible.

1) A player is permitted 4 seasons of competition.
2) A D1 player is allowed 5 calendar years after enrolling full-time at any kind of college.

A player needs to meet both requirements.

A player may miss a season of competition (meaning he does not play in intercollegiate competition for that season, or has had a serious injury early in the season), and not consume one of his 4 seasons of competition. However, unless he greyshirts (meaning he has not yet enrolled full-time at any college), he does use up one of the 5 calendar years. That's true even if he was injured. The purpose of allowing a player to have 5 calendar years to get in his 4 seasons of competition is to provide an extra year for players who are injured or have other reasons to not play. Of course, schools and players find it convenient to use that extra year for non-injury related red-shirting, but the NCAA generally won't grant a waiver for a 6th calendar year if the player redshirted (non-injury) and was also injured in a different year.

The point is that a player can't "claim a redshirt to maintain his full eligibility". The 5 year clock runs regardless.
The only way around this is to greyshirt.

Greyshirting is not suicide, but it is tricky. In my opinion, the best way to do this is to take classes part time at a JC which offers baseball, and at which the player is wanted. (He can practice at the JC even though he isn't full-time.) Then take a full load the second year, play baseball, and transfer to a D1 school at the end of the second or third year. Yes, a qualifier who hasn't attended a 4 year school can transfer after one year from a JC if he has 12 hours per full-time term with a 2.0GPA.

However, the scenario you are presenting here-- attend one year full-time at a non-baseball JC, and then transfer to a D1--is a high-risk route to D1 baseball, as MidloDad says. It both consumes a calendar year, and doesn't provide a good avenue to convince the D1 coach that the player will be useful. IMO, from a baseball point of view, entering any JC full-time without an intent to play baseball the first year is just not a good idea.

Going to a school w/o a baseball program for 1 year would be a big minus in my mind.

I would probebely choose a jc with a baseball program. Many kids redshirt thier first at a JC just like other levels. Going to a JC with a baseball program will give him the opportunity to:

1. Work with other players so he can measure himself up against the competition
2. Work out with other pitchers on a similiar development program
3 Allow a coach to see him workout which could lead to an opporunity with the same school next year or a referal to another school. Plus many JC schools in our area play fall ball which is scouted by pro scouts and 4 year schools. So he can be seen playing, even if he redshirts.
4. learn about the college baseball landscape by talking to kids playing/and/or redshirting.
5. Get help from the JC coach with a summer league assignment.

I agree with midlodad and everyone else who agrees with him.
You get better by being involved with practices, period, redshirt players are allowed to practice, and for pitchers, they are the guys who ususally do practices, to give players a break.
All players that enter college, no matter what their current size need to get bigger and stronger. It's a natural progression and takes not just one year, but several.
My player, consider "big" out of high school looked like a baby compared to the older players when he arrived at school. As big as he appears at 23, he still needs lots of work and still looks small compared to most ML pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParent:

Many kids redshirt their first at a JC just like other levels.

As I posted on this particular subject in "After High School" about having TOO many hours/credits, one would be very wise to heed 3Fingered's advise about Greyshirting the first year at a JUCO. It is imperative that he enroll part time, not full time.

With all that being said, I have to agree with everyone that not playing this year would set him back in the intangibles while his peers get better.

As I am typing this I can't help but wonder about Chris Dwyer from Clemson. A 21yr old Freshman from Clemson who is about to strike pay dirt this August with the Royals I believe.....? Did he sit out for 3yrs or what is his story? Apparently being out didn't hurt him.

Chris Dwyer, did not take time off from the game, drafted in 2008 by the Yankees and fWIW also a football and basketball player at Salisbury School (I believe a prepatory school). I do beleive it was more about his grades (repeating some grades than anything else) not about getting bigger or stronger, but rather better grades to play D1.

Can't compare him to this situation.

Hindsight being 20/20. You need to redshirt as a kindergartner. And you'll be set.

Thanks everyone for your point of view.
In California things are a bit different than some other places. One JC inparticular loves the RedShirt.
I was just trying to sort out the difference between the self imposed RedShirt and the official RedShirt.
Yes, I understand that everyone needs to get bigger and stronger along the way- it is a natural occurenace
, just earlier for some than others. Genetics do play a big part in that progression. Not playing games and practice would certainly leave him at a disadvantage, yet I'm not so sure he would decline in velocity -- the set up with the pitching coach outside of school, would be very advantageous.
I know things are different in each part of the country which makes this website so great. I was just exploring different possibilities with those more experienced. You never know until you ask!
Hopefully someone else benefited from the question.

I forgot to add a little something.
How confusing is it for players today to hear:
"You need to get bigger and stronger"
"You need to put on some weight"
And not be tempted by suggestions of other players with ideas of PED. Lots of stuff is probably recommended to players as "this works for me" and the incoming players have no clue. or just want it badly.

Of course their natural growth time line is established at conception - one guy on my older son's summer collegiate baseball team is only five months older than my younger son. The guy is a beast, younger son is tall and lean. (two years in age difference between my guys). The beast is just much further along.

My original inquiry was really about, what difference does it make if a player is off for a year due to injury, redshirt, greyshirt, whatever....what is the difference, a year off is a year off. Lots of players do it.
Some will rehab, some will practice with the team, etc.Some will be able to concentrate on school due to the fact that they do not travel.

It was just one of those questions that I have heard people ask recently, a couple of which fit the same profile as my younger son.
Thanks to all.

iheartbb -
The player will be away from competition for a year. I know a kid who got injured his senior year in HS. He was throwing 94 as a junior. Went through rehab and then some. They say his velocity is back up, but now the pros bring up the point that he hasn't seen live batting in 2 years so they are not interested. Back to your question and situation. What was he doing/not doing in HS? I have known lots of HS kids who I thought could have done much better for themselves as far as BB is concerned. I have come to the point of they either want it or they don't. If they do, then they will do what it takes without Dad or anyone else coercing them along. Bigger and stronger? Again what were they doing in HS. PED's? How about hard work and eating more? If there are complaints: again - they either want it or they don't. If they don't and go on and get a degree (or don't) and get a job and are enjoying life and living right, is that bad? I have four boys and they are all making their way through life, learning (hopefully) and doing good. My youngest is playing college BB. He didn't do it the way I told him he should, but he is making his way through life - enjoying school and going on and it is good. Hope that helps.

Tim Robertson

Injuries, red shirts, etc. can set a player back a year, but he still has a "foot in the door," if he's already on a team. That "foot in the door" is huge in the competetive world of baseball.

As to the weight gain issue, I think many freshman recruits hear this from college coaches. I know ours did. Weight training, good food, and physical maturation (time) did the trick. The temptations your son may face to gain weight quickly in other ways can be a little frightening to a parent, but they will always be there, even if he sits out for a year. As in everything, he will need to make good choices.

iheartbb-

Speaking from experience, a redshirt season for a physically underdeveloped LHP is far from suicide, but it is a humbling experience. The part of your query that maybe struck a nerve here with some is the option of him going it alone.

My advice to him is don't under-estimate the importance of being a part of a team. Team conditioning, ream discipline, on-field workouts, scrimmages, camaraderie- all these are a big part of the development process. Just being there in the dugout for home games to watch is good experience. Imagine him seeing game action up close on a regular basis, so he can say to himself, "I can do that," or "I sure don't want to do that!" This is the sort of motivation that he'll need to get through the year if not actually playing.

I suppose for the supremely motivated player, going at it alone with a good pitching coach could yield good results. But as somebody already pointed out, who's going to notice? There won't be a lot of critical eyes watching unless someone's got a vested interest, so feedback may be limited. And who's he going to measure up with? Who's he going to being hanging with? Lifting with? Playing long-toss with? Shagging flies? Shooting the breeze?

One more thing to remember here is that the summer following a redshirt is crucial, a time for him to get back on the baseball field and prove to himself and others that he can compete. Getting on a decent summer team could be tricky with no affiliation to a college team.

I wouldn't worry much about the 5 year eligibility plan right now. With his projectability he may well have some options before that 5th year. A lot of things can happen between now and then.

Lastly I would say to him, let somebody else make the call whether he can play this year or not. There's a lot of sorting out to be done in the fall. If he can contribute right away then all the better. If he's asked to sit for a year, he'll find himself hungry and ready for the first opportunity that comes his way.

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:
iheartbb-

Speaking from experience, a redshirt season for a physically underdeveloped LHP is far from suicide, but it is a humbling experience. The part of your query that maybe struck a nerve here with some is the option of him going it alone.

My advice to him is don't under-estimate the importance of being a part of a team. Team conditioning, ream discipline, on-field workouts, scrimmages, camaraderie- all these are a big part of the development process. Just being there in the dugout for home games to watch is good experience. Imagine him seeing game action up close on a regular basis, so he can say to himself, "I can do that," or "I sure don't want to do that!" This is the sort of motivation that he'll need to get through the year if not actually playing.

I suppose for the supremely motivated player, going at it alone with a good pitching coach could yield good results. But as somebody already pointed out, who's going to notice? There won't be a lot of critical eyes watching unless someone's got a vested interest, so feedback may be limited. And who's he going to measure up with? Who's he going to being hanging with? Lifting with? Playing long-toss with? Shagging flies? Shooting the breeze?

One more thing to remember here is that the summer following a redshirt is crucial, a time for him to get back on the baseball field and prove to himself and others that he can compete. Getting on a decent summer team could be tricky with no affiliation to a college team.

I wouldn't worry much about the 5 year eligibility plan right now. With his projectability he may well have some options before that 5th year. A lot of things can happen between now and then.

Lastly I would say to him, let somebody else make the call whether he can play this year or not. There's a lot of sorting out to be done in the fall. If he can contribute right away then all the better. If he's asked to sit for a year, he'll find himself hungry and ready for the first opportunity that comes his way.

Unbelievably good advice and analysis spizz!

Without giving away any secrets, is there any chance we might see spizz junior in the minor leagues this summer?

I don't think you can overstate the importance of having a college team with whom you work out. If I were the parent of the student in question, I would advice him to enroll part time in the fall so as to start a gray shirt year (usually 11 units at a semester based CA JC) - and try out for the team.

The 5 or 6 days a week worth of activities will be of tremendous help as he develops. Then he can make the decision, along with the coach of the JC, if he ready to play or if he wants to sit that year out. If he sits out, enroll for another 11 units, maintaining the Grayshirt status. If he is ready to play, then he will need to enroll in 12 or more units.

Why grayshirt? As described in the other thread, if he ends up playing three years at the Juco, this will make it a heck of a lot easier to transfer later on to a 4 year school. It doesn't cost the player much (22 units completed rather than 30) and keeps options open.

As Spizz points out, another key issue is summer ball. It is hard for a redshirt freshman to find a summer program. To find a quality summer program without affiliation to a college team would be incredibly difficult. Most college programs require you to be on a college roster to be eligible to play.

quote:

ream discipline

Ooooh that sounds really bad doesn't it? Actually meant team discipline, the kind you often get for someone else's screw up. Builds character

iheartbb

a couple of things.... first if your child does play this year and is not any good then he is off the recruiting map anyway.

Your child being a LHP with some height he will always get a look or three.

It is hard for people to weigh in on this unless they have a 6'3" lhp who needs to gain weight and get stronger.

Everyone takes the path that is right for them and baseball may or may not work out.

Do what you think you need to do. You are probably right because you are closest to the situation.

I would however find a pitching coach who can really analyze why he is not getting the velocity he wants. At 6'3" he has got some size that he should be able to capitalize on. The right pitching coach and the right determination can overcome the year off. (IMO)

Our son was a struggling 6'3", 180lb LHP coming out of HS who developed into a 6'4", 210lb switch hitting center fielder his first year at college. His college coach saw potential where others hadn't, gave him an opportunity to develop that talent, and worked with him relentlessy on both his physical and mental growth. The impact he made on his life both on and off the field was tremendous.

Sometimes you have to take a risk and step into the unknown to discover new opportunities. My best advice is to help your son weigh all of his options and then let him make the decision. He'll be more likely to succeed if he's allowed to follow his heart.

Liberty you were fortunate.
My son had a great P coach as a freshman. As a Soph the 2nd P coach was a nice guy but no P experience. At least he didn't mess with my son's mechanics and loved my son. JR year the 3rd P coach who thought he was gods gift to pitching tried to change sons mechanics and arm slot. That was a total disaster. The SR year he had a very good P coach but the HC told the SR pitchers they were going to act as mentors to the FR and Sophs. Kind of let the air out of their tires. I advised my son to concentrate on his academics. Not a great way to end your college BB but he still had no regrets.

Our second son was a 6'3" 180lb RHP out of HS who decided to go the JUCO route because he wanted to work under the best collegiate pitching coach in the state. He grew in size, increased his velocity, improved his mechanics, and learned a ton about the game, but injuries/surgeries plague his entire collegiate career. Even though he was red shirted his freshman year and struggled his second year, his JUCO coach still set him up with top summer teams and a Big 12 opportunity his junior year. He ended his senior season on the mound in a Big 12 uniform against a conference rival with no regrets, tons of great memories, and an honors degree.

As I said earlier, you never know what lies ahead, but you'll never find out if you don't take that first step.

quote:

As I said earlier, you never know what lies ahead, but you'll never find out if you don't take that first step.

Absolutely !
That is why we didn't chose a college based on BB. Most of our goals were realized. A great city, great education, unbelievable friends and memories plus a chance to pitch against top teams. Yes he even met the girl of his dreams.
He is home for a couple weeks but going back after a week at the cottage in nothern Ontario.

BHdoll...
Sounds like it worked out great for your son, too.

heartbb...
If your son really wants to play at the collegiate level or beyond, he needs to take the next step. In baseball, that's playing on a collegiate or pro team. There's so much more to pitching than velocity. Baseball is a game of adjustments and the best way to make adjustments is by facing stronger competition. The clock is ticking. If your son's dream is to play, he needs to compete to improve.