How important are the intangibles?

KmomNH:

In my opinion, if an otherwise technically correct and academically smart player lacks the intangibles that you mention then this player will struggle and would draw much less interest...imagine the difference between two players...one having all the skills that you mention plus all of the intangibles vs. another player having only the technical skills and academuc abilities. Which of the two would you choose? For sake of argument let's assume that they are equally projectible.

Intangibles, in my opinion, do matter.


BTW...great question!

gotwood

I totally agree--all other things being equal the intangibles can be the difference between and offer and no offer

I think the intangibles can very much be the difference between offers. As a spectator I would also say they contribute to the enjoyment of the game as well. While, I love baseball and enjoy watching a talented kid on the field - to see one play with intensity and heart only adds to that joy.

A kid that's talented but has no heart, an attitude (bad), and is all about himself - not much fun IMO!

Unfortunately, average ability WITH the intangibles won't get you the interest as opposed to have the ability and no intangibles. I know at least one D-I school that has turnover every year b/c they bring in the talent and ignore the other aspect. Perhaps they "get" these kids b/c the better programs know to avoid them?

lafmom:

quote:

...to see one play with intensity and heart only adds to that joy.

I wanna' give you a hug for that one lafmom...absolutely true!

JT:

quote:

Originally posted by JT:
Unfortunately, average ability WITH the intangibles won't get you the interest as opposed to have the ability and no intangibles. I know at least one D-I school that has turnover every year b/c they bring in the talent and ignore the other aspect. Perhaps they "get" these kids b/c the better programs know to avoid them?

And who loses in the long run with that scenario?

That's why this HSBBW is so important...so folks can learn about the pitfalls of the recruiting process...know to avoid programs like the one you described!

I guess it's important to compare rosters from one year to the next to see how many players return in subsequent years. I hadn't thought to do that. But I suppose this speaks to the issue of turnover and the caliber of the coaching staff.

.

OK...I'll take the cruifiction here...

While we would all like to believe the warm fuzzy notion that intangibles alone will make a difference and while it does happen, In the last few years have seen raw physical talent WITHOUT grades, team play, smarts, test scores, GPA'S, statistics, guys who have blown up team programs... rewarded over and over...

Physical talent trumps.

Now, if physical talent is equal, OR if smarts are SO good tyhat they can trump that talent then they are considered...but when a player hits a ball 400 feet few ask what his GPA is other than minimum entrance requirements, when a player can throw 93, few are interested in what his stats were coaches get stars in their eyes...

Not saying to ignore the intangibles, or not to value them, or that there is no chance but you have to be realistic to what is really out there..

Go ahead nail me up...

44

A lot of the situations Newcomer brought up should be taught and trained on the high school practice field. I am pretty sure most teams are learning these things. However, many players do not project these qualities well, some better than others. When scouts begin sniffing around for talent, its talent they're looking for. If a kid has a reputation as great SS, then I'm sure its due in part to his ability to perform intangibles. But most scouts I speak with feel they can get the kid instruction on the game if they sign him. Talent is first and foremost.

Perhaps I'm generalizing, but I would think that to some degree the more talented players tend to have a better grasp of some of the on-field game intangibles anyway. Their talent has allowed them to work on those intangibles while players with fair/average talent have been (or may not have been) working on their basic fundamentals. They've probably had more opportunities to learn some of that stuff all along through select teams, travel teams and generally more and better coaching, more game experience and higher levels of competition than players whose talent level does not give them those opportunitites.

Of course, there are exceptions, and probably many of them, as well as thick, stubborn or head case talented players who just don't get it, but get by with talent alone.

I can't answer how much weight intangibles carry with recruiters/scouts. But I know it when I see it, and if I can then scouts surely have detected it long before me and have made some note of it. Better to have it than not.

Hand me that short handled sledge over there and a couple of those rusty gutter spikes...I've got some fierce payback to collect from 44..."Who's that shoutin'" now?

Nice post 44...it is what it is...but it shouldn't be...I'm still hugging lafmom for her comment...it is a joy to watch those that play the game the way it should be played.

Granted 44...if you can wrap it all up in one package then you have a real gem...a gem for the ages.

It's just a shame, in my eyes, for the good attitude player with heart to lose out to the player who falls way short in lots of important categories, but can crush the ball or throw it into the next county.

A pendulum swings...hopefully it will swing back to the way lafmom and I like it soon...I think she's getting tired of me hugging her!

IMO - All things intangible are considered heavily by all Major League Scouting Departments and high level colleges. In a word, it is generally called Makeup!

That said, talent will always be most important. Never have I heard a discussion about some players makeup (good or bad) unless that same player had the necessary talent.

I have heard and had many discussions about very talented players and their (good or bad) makeup. Bad makeup can cost a talented player dearly!

The other intangibles include knowledge and feel for the game. This usually is described in scouting as "Polish". Once again there are not a lot of discussions about "polished" players without the necessary talent. There are many discussions about talented players who are not "polished". In a word, these players who lack polish are described as "Raw"!

Players who are "raw" play baseball. Players who are "polished" are Baseball Players! There is a big difference between the two!

Sometimes the "raw" guys who play baseball never become true baseball players.

Intangibles are very important, depends on the coaching staff and their recruiting and team philosophy. Depends on teh program as well.
Many talented players can not do all that is described above, so coachibilty is an important factor in the recruiting process. Willingness to learn, take feedback well and make adjustments, being a team player, leadership abilities is very important to many coaches. I know of a few players that had all the stuff, but did't bring much other intangibles to the team, weren't given opportunities where they wanted to play. I know of other players that are not as talented but have leadership, and traits named above and maturity skills to add to team chemistry.
We did our homework on coaches, just like they did their homework on son. It was important for us to understand the philososphy of the coach, how he puts a team together to make it work. The coaches who told son that you couldn't play at HIS school unless you were THE BEST, he steered clear of.
JMO

dad10:

I agree with what you say...it's logical and makes sense.

To get at what 44 and Coachric are saying let me relate a short story to you...

My son played in a national CABA tournament held each year in Euclid, OH (great tourney!) and played against a showcase team from Bergen Beach, Brooklyn, NY. What an impressive team that was. Highly, highly, skilled and for the most part, huge!

My son is a very good shortstop with, in my opinion, an overabundance of those beautiful intangibles. He is 5'9", or so, and those intangibles were learned and earned out of necessity...always trying to work harder and smarter than the larger, more physically mature, players that were relying primarily on their brawn. This approach has seved him very well.

With that Bergen Beach team you found out quickly that these guys had all of what my son possessed coupled with tremendous size and speed. What a show!

There was a shortstop from somewhere in Florida I believe...I think his name was Josh Bell (not Fungo's son)...and he could flat out get after it on both offense and defense...he made everything look absolutely effortless! Oh...Henry Sanchez was on that team too...talk about being able to hit the hide off the ball!

After seeing this team, that is when the lightbulb went off in my head and my son's head...we both knew what true major league prospects looked and played like...it was a great experience! It allowed us to realistically view where he is at in the broad spectrum of baseball talent...and that was very helpful!

Still...I wish that those great intangibles would be valued more...even if it just is the big guys...those intangibles add much to the game!

PG:

quote:

Bad makeup can cost a talented player dearly!

I hope this doesn't sound wrong...but I'm glad to see you state that.

Some otherwise very good player has felt the repercussions of bad behaviour or bad makeup...that actually is reassuring to know...thanks for enlightening us PG.

TPM:

quote:

We did our homework on coaches, just like they did their homework on son. It was important for us to understand the philososphy of the coach, how he puts a team together to make it work. The coaches who told son that you couldn't play at HIS school unless you were THE BEST, he steered clear of.
JMO

That is some of the best advice that you will ever see! It's obviously not easy to do...it involves alot of work...but if you follow that advice, then you will most likely be very satisfied.

Great post TPM!

quote:

It's just a shame, in my eyes, for the good attitude player with heart to lose out to the player who falls way short in lots of important categories, but can crush the ball or throw it into the next county.

Great point, GW4S. It is so frustrating to see the local D-I YEAR AFTER YEAR make the same mistakes.

PG, you are, as usual, right, too. Make-up don't mean squat if you can't HIT. Even if you can run a sub 6.8, good glove, good arm...
...it all comes down to how well you swing the stick.

PG - very interesting. The word that my son's college coach used to describe him was "polished". That he "was very polished and coach could tell that he'd "played a lot of baseball". I always considered that a compliment, but moreso now!

I know of a former player who played for a top 25 team (hint, hint), walk on, red shirted who in 5 years played very little, and earned a wonderful degree. Team Captain. Knowing what a certain RHP (hint, hint) told me about him and the Head Coach's philososphy (hint, hint), I can see why he remained with the team.

Woody,
That Josh Bell from Florida got me confused for awhile with Fungo's Josh Bell.
Your post was very honest and enlighteneing. It's amazing how one can take two talented players, play them side by side and just KNOW there is a differnce. It's a great debate for us, but only THE coach or scout knows what he is looking for in a particular player.

TPM:

You hear the term get real...well even though we have been and continue to be real with all four of our players...that experience in Euclid was very rewarding.

It was my son's first chance to play against a team full of top, elite players...he had some success in the game but as compared to Josh Bell...that kid is definitely in a different league than my son...and that is a good lesson to learn.

By knowing where you fit you can avoid many problems encountered with unrealistic expectations. Very valuable indeed.

Great posts by TPM and PG, and the rest of you guys too.
I do think there is quite a sizeable difference in what pro scouts are looking for and what a college coach is looking for. Scouts have to put forward players that project to be big leaguers one day. College coaches, and there are so many levels to college, have to know that they can work with the kid, that he's a student and player that will fit their program, and as TPM has reiterated often, that the player feels is a good fit for him.

.

Back with the Wood Man and TPM again....

quote:

Great post TPM!

I agree completely....

quote:

depends on the coaching staff and their recruiting and team philosophy. Depends on teh program as well.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK! Some programs are very tools biased...some value and appreciate the whole team aspect and work ethic, character...you have to hope that fit is right and that that school that values such things wants your son...IMO there are not enough of the "good" programs out there...do your homework...


44

Hey TPM - Any chance that top 25 team recently replaced Texas at the top of a certain well known poll?

quote:

Originally posted by KmomNH:
Hey TPM - Any chance that top 25 team recently replaced Texas at the top of a certain well known poll?

quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
TPM:

quote:

We did our homework on coaches, just like they did their homework on son. It was important for us to understand the philososphy of the coach, how he puts a team together to make it work. The coaches who told son that you couldn't play at HIS school unless you were THE BEST, he steered clear of.
JMO

That is some of the best advice that you will ever see! It's obviously not easy to do...it involves alot of work...but if you follow that advice, then you will most likely be very satisfied.

Great post TPM!

Thanks Woody,
But not hard to do. I have found that baseball media guides can tell a lot about a team. If you are sent them from schools, read them, if not any media guide from any program can be ordered.

During the recruiting process we encountered several college coaches that had a particular "profile" of player in mind.

One very prominent university even went as far to say that they were looking for the blue collar type of player. A player that had confidence, skill and makeup to work hard on becoming the best player they can be. They particularly talked about not wanting kids that had huge egos and all the associated problems even if they had high draft potential. They did not want prima donnas. After hearing this, the conversations leading up to our visit made a lot more sense.

I agree that you need the physical skills but given the choice the intangibles are also a consideration.