How Important Is The Pipeline To The Varsity Team?

It's not impossible to forecast but for most HS V teams, success will depend very much upon how strong the top 3 (give or take) pitchers are and then how strong the top 8-10 position players are, along with any depth and then, coaching, development, cohesiveness, health and minimal attrition otherwise for those top players.

Those key players will come from the large pool of returning V, JV and freshman teams.  So, it doesn't really do any good paying attention to the weakness of each subclass.  Also, results of JV and frosh games have limited meaning - if run properly, IMO, they are playing all or most of the players with the idea of seeing who will grow and develop most for V.  Some of those currently weaker younger players will grow and become stronger.  So, if you are determined to predict, look at the best handful from each class and at those who look like they may really develop when they grow into their bodies.  And what type of training and development is happening, whether it be from within the HS program, outside instruction, good travel organizations or any combination of.  A LOT of gains can be made with better development and commitment as compared to your competitors. Another BIG key is look at the groups and get a read on the level of mental competitiveness and passion.  I have seen large groups of fairly polished players with regard to proper instruction, etc., but if they don't collectively have competitive fire, they aren't going to win tough games.

All of this, of course, is a sliding scale based on the quality of competition they will face.

My sons high school typically only progresses 5-7 guys from any given year’s freshman team to the varsity level in the course of their baseball career. Of those, maybe 2-3 are impact players. Physically, a lot changes between 9th - 11th grade and with that the player skills will improve (strength, speed, coordination). There will be a few guys who make the team simply to round out the roster, may never see meaningful innings. 

In my experience bad frosh/JV teams feeding into varsity usually compound the lack of success at varsity level.

I think the idea of JV is to get the top 4/5 guys to be varsity contributors the following year. In our town 3 sophomores played varsity. JV (which was very bad) had another 4 players that with more size/development could play varsity the following season. When you move those players up next year, they will be with a group of most likely 7-10 guys that have been there and played. You only need 9. If you can get 3/4 from each class that can actually play you can usually put a decent product on the field. 5+ gives you good depth when you consider there will be 10-12 regulars. 

A freshman or JV team doesn’t have to be good for the varsity to be successful. All it takes is four talented kids from each class (soph to senior) and a varsity team can be very good. What it really comes down to is having quality pitching.

Good responses above.  Here are my 2 cents.  I love it when my son's team is successful and wins.  However, he has been on below average teams where winning was infrequent.  Just remember that baseball does much more than being a "winner".  If coached properly, these impressionable young men will learn values in life, such as:  teamwork, sportsmanship, humility, humbleness, effort, support, dedication, working towards goals, time management, and many others which I have failed to list.  If your son enjoys playing and the game itself, strong characteristics and personality development are being introduced and worked on, both during a win or loss.

In my area the schools are all 500 plus per grade, I can't think of any program that would be considered a "power" or consistently upper level, say top 25% or so that doesn't have strong Freshman and or JV programs. They all are good at every grade every year. The pipeline is always being filled, there are seldom enough roster spots for the talent available. I have been actively watching HS baseball for the last 7 years and very seldom do you see a team come out of nowhere and suddenly become good.

Maybe it is more volatile in smaller sized schools but the big ones are reloading all the time.

I think the attrition begins here for many kids who played travel, rec, LL or other organized ball or none at all up to HS. Making freshman and JV quads varies across schools, areas and size. Varsity baseball is where the road begins to end for alot of kids. 

Francis, you are leaving out development.  Some players who you believe to be of lower ability will improve.  In fact, some might being going through puberty and will gain strength and thus be more athletic.  Also, a varsity coach knows that there are years when the freshman squad will not produce more than a couple of players.  Therefore, they have to either work with the hard charges with lower abilities to make them adequate for varsity play or scrap them early in lieu of getting more playing time for others.  Finally, how do you know the goals of the jv coach/squad?  It is possible that playing time is being used to develop players at certain positions where players have not played before which sometimes results in fewer wins as they develop.  

Edited to add:

There are times when a varsity coach will recognize that he has a strong class of freshmen or sophomores and so will move them up to the varsity as a unit.  I did that a few times.  Both times I did so, the result was teams that won a ton of games over their careers.  

A look at my sons HS history on MaxPreps has data for frosh teams back to 2011. Worst frosh team from then until now lost 10 games in a 28-game season. That team had players make varsity, but none were impact players or even played much. None went on to college ball. Three sophomores played “up” on Varsity that season and were major contributors. Of those, 1 went on to play NAIA, 1 played D1, one was drafted 1st rd out of HS. Studs don’t play freshman baseball. 

“Usually”...sometimes they do and develop into starting P5 shortstops their freshman year as happened 2 seasons later at his school.

I don't think you can predict it because there is a HUGE difference in 13/14 and 17/18 year olds. 

Kid's grow into their power and strength.  the kid hitting right to CF at 14 is now hitting it over the fence at 18.

Our star Varsity pitcher last year was slinging 93, he was at 75 in 9th grade.  What those top 3 pitchers do on Varsity have a dramatic affect on how the team does.

Son is still in 8th grade, but as I understand it, our school doesn't play any freshman up to varsity.  They could play JV, but not varsity. 

Dadof3 posted:

Son is still in 8th grade, but as I understand it, our school doesn't play any freshman up to varsity.  They could play JV, but not varsity. 

That’s short sighted if the guy is a stud.

Are you considering changing schools for your son?

2022OFDad posted:

Dadof3 posted:

Son is still in 8th grade, but as I understand it, our school doesn't play any freshman up to varsity.  They could play JV, but not varsity. 

That’s short sighted if the guy is a stud.

I think his kids high school is like my kids high school.  A 9th grader rarely gets called up at the end of JV but he’s not going to get put on Varsity from the start.  Way too much talent up top, to get to Varsity as a 9th grader. Also, there is such a thing as paying your dues.

Don't believe in paying your dues.  A good coach will play his 9/10 best players no matter grade or what they did last year.  A senior should not play over a better freshman just because they have been in the program.  A senior should also not take a roster spot if there are better underclassmen in the school.  Play the best.  My last year as HC, I had a parent of a senior come to me after first game and wanted to know why he was not starting or playing.  I said #1 don't talk to me about playing time again.  I will let this slide but next time you take your son and go home unless he is the one talking.  #2 this game is about playing the best players and your son is not even close.  I played him in 2 varsity games that year when we were way up with one being senior night.  I played him on JV when the other coach would agree a senior could play JV.  I would have cut him but we did not allow cuts at all in our sports programs which was silly.  I know many disagree with the mentality of playing best because they think HS is still part of program and upperclassmen should be rewarded.  I disagree and think it is the coach's responsibility to win games and play best players.

On that we can agree! Let’s get it on!

PitchingFan posted:

Don't believe in paying your dues.  A good coach will play his 9/10 best players no matter grade or what they did last year.  A senior should not play over a better freshman just because they have been in the program.  A senior should also not take a roster spot if there are better underclassmen in the school.  Play the best.  My last year as HC, I had a parent of a senior come to me after first game and wanted to know why he was not starting or playing.  I said #1 don't talk to me about playing time again.  I will let this slide but next time you take your son and go home unless he is the one talking.  #2 this game is about playing the best players and your son is not even close.  I played him in 2 varsity games that year when we were way up with one being senior night.  I played him on JV when the other coach would agree a senior could play JV.  I would have cut him but we did not allow cuts at all in our sports programs which was silly.  I know many disagree with the mentality of playing best because they think HS is still part of program and upperclassmen should be rewarded.  I disagree and think it is the coach's responsibility to win games and play best players.

Paying your dues means spending some time on JV to me, not playing a senior over another kid. The point is moot at my son’s high school.  There is no 9th grade team.  9th grade has to play JV or V but with the amount of talent there, it’s just not conceivable that a 13/14 year old has the strength of the upper classmen.  Yes freshman can get called up at the end of their JV season but they ride the bench.  

Between JV and V there are around 45 players.  Typically they have 5-8 D1 players sign per year, and usually at least one drafted.  Largest high school division in GA, over 40 travel ball kids didn’t make the team last year, there are no 8th graders playing JV and no 9th graders starting at Varsity. There is just no need. Let them help out JV and get more playing time, AND pay their dues which allows the coach to see how they handle adversity.

Very rarely will you see a 9th grader on varsity make a huge difference and they are usually up there to fill in on defense somewhere.  Now with that said there is your occasional stud, but more often then not  they don't get a lot of reps during the season unless they bounce between JV and Varsity.  My 2021 son played JV all year last year and bounced up to varsity a few times to fill in as backup catcher.

He's been told that he'll be on varsity as a sophomore, which is all cool to say and everything; but I'm not sure how many games he'll play...but he made a huge jump from Spring => Summer and into Fall so he is read to play.  And I think that is the key for underclassman... how much time have they dedicated to getting better?  Even with playing multiple sports they still have to find time to get better at baseball no matter what grade they are in.

Coach_TV posted:

Very rarely will you see a 9th grader on varsity make a huge difference and they are usually up there to fill in on defense somewhere.  Now with that said there is your occasional stud, but more often then not  they don't get a lot of reps during the season unless they bounce between JV and Varsity.  My 2021 son played JV all year last year and bounced up to varsity a few times to fill in as backup catcher.

Depends on where you're located. In the northeast there are plenty of freshman playing varsity. In a state like GA, TX, or SoCal there are going to be very few. But when you head up north to some of the cold weather states it is much more common, even on state championship level teams (although not as common). JV baseball is typically very bad up north. Even if there is a freshman who won't contribute, it might be better to bring him up and have him practice with older, stronger, faster stronger kids than have him kill 72mph pitching on JV. 

PitchingFan posted:

Don't believe in paying your dues.  A good coach will play his 9/10 best players no matter grade or what they did last year.  A senior should not play over a better freshman just because they have been in the program.  A senior should also not take a roster spot if there are better underclassmen in the school.  Play the best.  My last year as HC, I had a parent of a senior come to me after first game and wanted to know why he was not starting or playing.  I said #1 don't talk to me about playing time again.  I will let this slide but next time you take your son and go home unless he is the one talking.  #2 this game is about playing the best players and your son is not even close.  I played him in 2 varsity games that year when we were way up with one being senior night.  I played him on JV when the other coach would agree a senior could play JV.  I would have cut him but we did not allow cuts at all in our sports programs which was silly.  I know many disagree with the mentality of playing best because they think HS is still part of program and upperclassmen should be rewarded.  I disagree and think it is the coach's responsibility to win games and play best players.

I agree. I also think the claims of favortism (coach's kid...) and seniors playing because they "earned it" are way overblown, it happens but mostly coaches want to win games, they are neither there to be loyal to seniors nor to develop young players.

Most of the time a freshman is not playing is because he is not good enough yet. Parents think it is bias because their little boy hit .400 in his expensive 14u travel team but 17/18  year olds are just stronger than most 15 year olds. Now occasionally a 15 year old is either so much better or earlier matured than the older players and once in a blue moon you see a 15 yo with adult strength but usually just being able to play fundamentally sound is not enough unless the older players are very bad.

I don't know about the overblown part.  I have heard from multiple people that our V coach likes to reward the seniors and lets them play over some better players.  Again, son is not in the HS yet, but as I understand it the coach isn't about winning, he is about building character of the boys while trying to win.  I am not saying that is a bad thing either.  Like so many have said on here already, the HS program is not really a factor that much anymore. At least here in the NE/Mid atlantic.  Our HS does have a fresh team, as well as a jv team.  I was really hoping that they would allow 8th graders (son is 13 and in 8th grade) to try out for the freshman team this year, but they don't do that in our township - for any sport.  Oh well - that will give my son more time to grow and get stronger.

Usually claims of favoritism comes from the parents of kids who aren’t starting. I remember hearing it from the dad of a kid who started opening day, started the first three games, went 0-8 with 5 whiffs and let 3 balls get by him in the outfield. This occurred the kid’s soph and similar results early junior year. The kid didn’t play senior year due to previous “favoritism.” I thought the coach had grossly overrated the kid when he started opening day soph year.

Another claim is parents who believe the coach’s kid is starting due to favoritism freshman or soph year. Yet the kid develops into a D1 prospect. Heaven forbid the coach”s kid makes one error. The parents will be talking. 

Dominik85 posted:

PitchingFan posted:

Don't believe in paying your dues.  A good coach will play his 9/10 best players no matter grade or what they did last year.  A senior should not play over a better freshman just because they have been in the program.  A senior should also not take a roster spot if there are better underclassmen in the school.  Play the best.  My last year as HC, I had a parent of a senior come to me after first game and wanted to know why he was not starting or playing.  I said #1 don't talk to me about playing time again.  I will let this slide but next time you take your son and go home unless he is the one talking.  #2 this game is about playing the best players and your son is not even close.  I played him in 2 varsity games that year when we were way up with one being senior night.  I played him on JV when the other coach would agree a senior could play JV.  I would have cut him but we did not allow cuts at all in our sports programs which was silly.  I know many disagree with the mentality of playing best because they think HS is still part of program and upperclassmen should be rewarded.  I disagree and think it is the coach's responsibility to win games and play best players.

I agree. I also think the claims of favoritism (coach's kid...) and seniors playing because they "earned it" are way overblown, it happens but mostly coaches want to win games, they are neither there to be loyal to seniors nor to develop young players.

 

Not sure I agree...I've seen plenty of varsity teams where senior's start over more talented underclassmen...early in the season as a "reward" if you will for dedicating the time to the program and give them the first shot at being the full time starter.  Now, with that said there is a short leash with kids that do not perform over time and the best kids will play in the end no matter the grade; because as it was already stated...Coaches want to win.

There are times a younger player may have more potential upside but the senior starts. There’s something to be said for the leadership and confidence a senior may  bring to the team. 

I still disagree.  I have seen it way too many times at 5A schools in all sports in Tennessee, GA, and South Carolina where we have lived and I have umpired.  The coaches feel pressure to play the upperclassmen over the freshmen from the parents and school.  I know a friend who finally resigned at a 5A school in Ga where he had won 3 state championships because the new AD said he had to reward the seniors because they had put in their time even at the expense of losses early in the season.  He had a talented group of young players who went on to become great players with 2 that were drafted out of high school that didn't get a chance to start as freshmen who should have.  They both transferred when he resigned.  He said either they let me run my program and I play the best players no matter the age or I'll quit coaching all together.  Went to another program and won 2 straight state championships starting 3 freshmen. 

I caught a little flack early on for starting my freshman but then when he led team in pitching and hitting the parents got quiet.  I rewarded our lone senior with key starts on the mound at the end and it put us out of playoffs.  Swore I would never do it again. 

PitchingFan posted:

I still disagree.  I have seen it way too many times at 5A schools in all sports in Tennessee, GA, and South Carolina where we have lived and I have umpired.  The coaches feel pressure to play the upperclassmen over the freshmen from the parents and school.  I know a friend who finally resigned at a 5A school in Ga where he had won 3 state championships because the new AD said he had to reward the seniors because they had put in their time even at the expense of losses early in the season.  He had a talented group of young players who went on to become great players with 2 that were drafted out of high school that didn't get a chance to start as freshmen who should have.  They both transferred when he resigned.  He said either they let me run my program and I play the best players no matter the age or I'll quit coaching all together.  Went to another program and won 2 straight state championships starting 3 freshmen. 

I caught a little flack early on for starting my freshman but then when he led team in pitching and hitting the parents got quiet.  I rewarded our lone senior with key starts on the mound at the end and it put us out of playoffs.  Swore I would never do it again. 

I have seen the same thing in 6A schools in Texas - especially with baseball.  There is a lot of political pressure on many HS baseball coaches to play seniors because its "their turn" - and many coaches either cave into it or agree (not sure which is worse).  Like you, I disagree with this creampuff mentality.  But I have come to understand that there are more people who think differently than we do than those who are like minded.  I guess that's a commentary on where we are as a society to some degree. But my personal experience has been that the majority of HS admins & HS parents are more concerned with participation than competitiveness. They want to see their son on the field as a senior whether he belongs there or not.  IMO this "juice box & participation trophy" mentality that has become so prevalent hinders the mental and physical development of young athletes - and sets them up for failure later in life. In theory the best player should play and everyone should learn how to deal with it. But that's not the world we live in.

We have a coach that the 1st parent meeting tells parents that he'll put the best 9 on the field.  So he sets the expectations.

He also tells them, that "Johnny may have been good over there in that little league, but we've got kids coming up the pipeline that have traveled to GA/FL/CA to play against the best, and just because you dominated rec league in the city, that don't mean squat". 

And I might add that the coach is very successful with deep runs in the playoffs 7/8 years, so his way has proved successful. 

russinfortworth posted:

We have a coach that the 1st parent meeting tells parents that he'll put the best 9 on the field.  So he sets the expectations.

He also tells them, that "Johnny may have been good over there in that little league, but we've got kids coming up the pipeline that have traveled to GA/FL/CA to play against the best, and just because you dominated rec league in the city, that don't mean squat". 

.. 

This is pretty much standard protocol in our neck of the woods.  I don't see HS's playing seniors because they are seniors.  Of course, the senior parents don't like it when theirs don't play but that is somewhat to be expected.

cabbagedad posted:

russinfortworth posted:

We have a coach that the 1st parent meeting tells parents that he'll put the best 9 on the field.  So he sets the expectations.

He also tells them, that "Johnny may have been good over there in that little league, but we've got kids coming up the pipeline that have traveled to GA/FL/CA to play against the best, and just because you dominated rec league in the city, that don't mean squat". 

.. 

This is pretty much standard protocol in our neck of the woods.  I don't see HS's playing seniors because they are seniors.  Of course, the senior parents don't like it when theirs don't play but that is somewhat to be expected.

I have personal experience with 2 different 6A programs in Texas - meaning I have sons that played there. At both schools the Varsity Baseball Coach played seniors over more talented younger players. One of the coaches has since been fired. Neither one of them knew how to build a program. Both started as volunteer Asst Coaches and were promoted as a result of attrition because it was easier than conducting a search. Happens way more than you think. 

We had seniors with sub .150 batting averages hitting over sophomores hitting over .350 regularly.

Playing ability was not a factor in who played last year at my son’s school. We were good enough to win some games, whilst not playing the best 9. If you were a better player than a senior, you would not play over him. 

All the while, you would be told that the best 9 would play. 

It just wasn’t true. 

It should be true, the best 9 should play.