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How long

SC Some call me the space doctor, some call10+ posts
High school aged summer league (AABC) game last night.

After a couple of close calls not going his way, the opposing manager comes out of the dguout with a shouting vengance. Didn't heed the field umps instruction (at least 3 times) to get off the field and went bill to bill with the ump. Got tossed. Still jawing like crazy. Shoves ump hard. Finally leaves (while threatening to be waiting for the ump in the parking lot) and the game proceeds. Wasn't in the parking lot.

Obviously this guy will need suspension but I'm curious, how long would he be gone in your respective league?
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piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
we have seen coaches suspended for the rest of the year for just the threatening part...

The physical contact would get him banned from ever returning....

And if the league doesnt handle it promptly there will be no umpires from our chapter showing up to do that teams games.....(we support our own 100%)

(The assaulted Umpire should also file charges with the police.......)
Last edited by piaa_ump
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
No place in any level of baseball, but some coach is going to really take a high school "summer league" game to that degree. That is a disgrace and if I had a kid playing on that team he wouldn't be anymore.


quote:
The coach is an idiot that needs to not be around kids.


Let's all remember there was an umpire who punched a high school coach earlier this year..

That said, I do agree that a lifetime ban and criminal charges are probably warranted..
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
No place in any level of baseball, but some coach is going to really take a high school "summer league" game to that degree. That is a disgrace and if I had a kid playing on that team he wouldn't be anymore.


quote:
The coach is an idiot that needs to not be around kids.


Let's all remember there was an umpire who punched a high school coach earlier this year..

That said, I do agree that a lifetime ban and criminal charges are probably warranted..


Certainly you remember the post here on the HSBBW in the general forum titled "umpire hits HS coach" since you posted in it as well....where I and 2 other umpires from our forum stated basically the same thing about the umpire in question.....

Dont think you would find any umpires here who would defend a coach/umpire physically assaulting one another......it just has no place in baseball period...
Last edited by piaa_ump
O otownmike100+ posts
Bulldog.....the moral of the story is nobody associated with kids playing baseball should let a situaton escalate to the point of an altercation. That goes for players, parents, coaches, and umpires.

Paplebon barely bumped the umpire and will miss 3-games and lose approxamately $225,000. MLB has a way of hittng you where it hurts for an altercation.

High school baseball has no resemblance to MLB, so maybe perspective is what is needed more than debate.
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by otownmike:
Paplebon barely bumped the umpire and will miss 3-games and lose approxamately $225,000. MLB has a way of hittng you where it hurts for an altercation.


This isn't as bad as it seems. Papelbon has pitched in 26 games this year, equaling a bit over 42% of the games Boston has played. Missing 3 games for him is about the same as a fielder missing 1 game.

You see it more in starters who are given a 5-game suspension. It's essentially equal to one game, as they only pitch once every 5 games.
trojan-skippertrojan-skipper1,000+ posts
In my neck of the woods, if it was a game where the umpire was a city employee that coach would get a life time ban and be prosecuted by the city attorney to fullest extent of the law.
But if the very same thing happened on the same field and the ump was working Legion, Babe Ruth, high school i doubt there would be any re-percussions and it would turn into a he said he said thing where nothing much was done about it.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Yep, and if an umpire bumps a player in MLB he umpires the next day and no suspension..


If he umpires the next day, it's because the penalty has not yet been levied. The same happens with players. They can play for weeks while a penalty is being appealed. If you are insinuating that umpires are not punished for such behavior, that is patently untrue.

Umpires are fined, severely for their salary, for such action and lose games. For behavior less severe than that they have been known to lose post season assignments.


In 2007 Mike Winters referred to Milton Bradley as a piece of $hit and Bradley made contact with him. Bradley was fined $750 while Winters was fined thousands, suspended and lost post season games.

The difference is that often umpire discipline is not made public. This is a century old policy that MLB believes helps prevent bullying by coaches and players.
Last edited by Jimmy03
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Tell us.. how long did Joe West miss?

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14523967


I dont know exactly about the discipline of Joe West in the instance you are refering to, but if you are just trying to use JW as an example, He clearly was included and called out publicly in the discipline event last year.

Ozzie Guillen, pitcher Mark Buehrle, and umpire Joe West were all fined an undisclosed amount for their actions during a May 2010 game against Cleveland, leading to the ejections of Guillen and later Buehrle after they disputed two balk calls.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
But piaa_ump, what was brought up in this discussion was that a player was suspended 3 games for bumping an umpire. Now I don't know if he bumped him or shoved him so I can't say whether the player deserved the suspension or not. But I have seen other players get suspended for incidental contact. Joe West is a perfect example of how MLB lets its umpires do just about whatever they want. His was not incidental contact; it was multiple shoves. And maybe he was fined, but why wasn't he suspended like a player would be automatically?
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Joe West is a perfect example of how MLB lets its umpires do just about whatever they want. His was not incidental contact; it was multiple shoves. And maybe he was fined, but why wasn't he suspended like a player would be automatically?


The point is that MLB does discipline umpires as Jimmy has pointed out previously.....its just that MLB does not publicly announce the penalty on umpires for their own reasons....(you and I might not agree about that, but it is what it is)

Umpires can and do get suspended for actions like this....MLB Umpire Mike Winters was suspended by Major League Baseball for the remainder of the regular season a few years ago because of a confrontation with San Diego's Milton Bradley....(and that was very publically announced)

It happens we just dont often hear about it....should JW be disciplined for this recent incident?....yes, I'd probably say so....just because I know if it was me in any of my leagues or chapters I would be......But Im not a MLB umpire....they have differing standards and take a whole lot more abuse than I do.
Last edited by piaa_ump
GG Gold Glove100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
Because he is a CC trying to peel an idiot that has been ejected off an umpire. Francona pushed Joe every bit as much and recieved no time off.


Michael, usually you are a source of level headed discussion but to defend Joe West and call Francona an idiot is absurd. A different ump maybe but Joe West is a disgrace to the profession. You should see him do basketball, he is even worse.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
And maybe he was fined, but why wasn't he suspended like a player would be automatically?


And you know he wasn't? Really?

Joe paid a price for the Francona incident but not as much as he could have since MLB, controlled by owners, not umpires, found Francona to be the instigator.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove:

And Joe West is the bigger idiot then because he obviously doesn't know how to umpire a big league game anymore!


Really? And you base this on your professional training at which school? Or maybe you've based this on your years of work in professional baseball umpiring followed by years evaluating professional umpires?

Or, it's possible you make such a judgement based on years of sitting on the couch and watching TV?
GG Gold Glove100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
And maybe he was fined, but why wasn't he suspended like a player would be automatically?


And you know he wasn't? Really?

Joe paid a price for the Francona incident but not as much as he could have since MLB, controlled by owners, not umpires, found Francona to be the instigator.


And you know this how since PIA said MLB does not publisize discipline?
GG Gold Glove100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove:

And Joe West is the bigger idiot then because he obviously doesn't know how to umpire a big league game anymore!


Really? And you base this on your professional training at which school? Or maybe you've based this on your years of work in professional baseball umpiring followed by years evaluating professional umpires? Or, it's possible you make such a judgement based on years of sitting on the couch and watching TV?


(Before I start, I like and respect MST but he's the one calling Francona the idiot) Hmmm, then what does Michael base his judgement on? His years of coaching amd managing in the major leagues or from his days watching on TV? What do you base your constant ripping of coaches and managers, your years of coaching amd managing in the major leagues or from your days watching on TV?

These are my opinions which I am entitled to. Jimmy you are very similar to Joe West in that your attitude is that you are never wrong about anything. You are great with the rules and interpretations but you constantly love to belittle anyone who disagrees with anything you or any other umpire says.

I did not rip any of the umps that are on here because I have never seemany of you do your job, so I have no opinion.
Last edited by Gold Glove
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove:

And Joe West is the bigger idiot then because he obviously doesn't know how to umpire a big league game anymore!


Really? And you base this on your professional training at which school? Or maybe you've based this on your years of work in professional baseball umpiring followed by years evaluating professional umpires? Or, it's possible you make such a judgement based on years of sitting on the couch and watching TV?


(Before I start, I like and respect MST but he's the one calling Francona the idiot) Hmmm, then what does Michael base his judgement on? His years of coaching amd managing in the major leagues or from his days watching on TV? What do you base your constant ripping of coaches and managers, your years of coaching amd managing in the major leagues or from your days watching on TV?

These are my opinions which I am entitled to. Jimmy you are very similar to Joe West in that your attitude is that you are never wrong about anything. You are great with the rules and interpretations but you constantly love to belittle anyone who disagrees with anything you or any other umpire says.

I did not rip any of the umps that are on here because I have never seemany of you do your job, so I have no opinion.


The difference is that MST commented on Francona's behavior, upon which we all have the background to judge. You, on the other hand, commented on West's abilities, upon which you, apparently, do not have the background to judge.

If you stuck to your rant on Joe's behavior you'd have found much more agreement.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
Golden Glove:
I take no exception to your disagreement of my feelings for Francona. He may be an excellent manager, that can't speak to, but there are a handfull of managers in pro baseball that just don't seem to get how to argue a point and when to quit. I have no problem with a manager going out to question a call or express his displeasure, but he just doesn't get where the line is. Ozzy is another and seems to be way worse. There are several others but names escape me.
I can see you not liking Joe's handling of situations, he doesn't always have the best bedside manner but his skills can't be questioned.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
but his skills can't be questioned.


His crew is the only one calling balks it seems. Very few other crews call "questionable" balks. They get the obvious ones and nobody disagrees. The Joe West/Angel Hernandez freak show finds all of them that nobody else sees.


Cite? Evidence?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
And you know he wasn't? Really?


Until they announce it, we will assume he was not punished.


I see. So since you personally are not privy to the facts, you feel free to make them up.

Most folks I know chose not to assume that which they do not know. You style is completely alien to me.

Those in charge of discipline of umpires are governed by the team owners, not umpires. They are ones who decide which punishments are made public and which are not, not the umpires. MLB decided long ago that it is not, for the most part, to publicize these matters. Word, however, does filter out, mainly through umpire sources. Having personal relationship with a few MLB and MiLB umpires and having a son working in minors provides me with some information at times.

But you go on making up the facts as you need them to fit your world, and I will be content knowing reality.

Have a nice season.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
...having a son working in minors...


Hmmm...he doesn't happen to have the same first name as yours truly, does he?


No. Nor does he have the same name as me. You will note I haven't spoken much about him. He worked his first year the same year I moved to California. I decided that if he were identified, or I spoke too much of him, it could cause him grief in his career.

I do plan to fly east and see him work this summer, though.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:

No. Nor does he have the same name as me. You will note I haven't spoken much about him. He worked his first year the same year I moved to California. I decided that if he were identified, or I spoke too much of him, it could cause him grief in his career.


Yes, understood. That's why I don't go into too much detail here myself.
O otownmike100+ posts
quote:
I take no exception to your disagreement of my feelings for Francona. He may be an excellent manager, that can't speak to, but there are a handfull of managers in pro baseball that just don't seem to get how to argue a point and when to quit. I have no problem with a manager going out to question a call or express his displeasure, but he just doesn't get where the line is. Ozzy is another and seems to be way worse. There are several others but names escape me.
I can see you not liking Joe's handling of situations, he doesn't always have the best bedside manner but his skills can't be questioned.


For many MLB coaches isn't getting tossed more of a strategic thing? I would bet many of them are going out to the field knowing they are going to get ejected because from the there they can get their say in before heading to the showers, and other times the ejection is for defending a player to keep them from getting ejected. On occassion it can fire up the team, and it is a way for the players to know the manager has their back.

Aguing rules interpretations rarely get a coach tossed more likey is is over judgement calls and ball/strikes/balks arguements which the coach is always going to lose.

Bobby Cox, Ozzie, Francona, Gardenhire......it's not about how to argue or when to quit. It's more like toss me and then they are going to let them know about how they feel about the umpire's performance.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
Even at the majors, you can tell an umpire what you think of his performance without getting ejected. It's what you tell him next that gets you ejected.

Some managers apparently believe that getting ejected fires up their team, or indicates to players that they have their backs. Some managers have/had serious anger management problems and some seem to enjoy putting on a show. Still others like to get personal with umpires and tell them not what they think about their performance, but more about their parentage, heritage, character and other issues.

And a few appear to just want to get out of the game, shower and relax or go home.
Last edited by Jimmy03
O otownmike100+ posts
quote:
Still others like to get personal with umpires and tell them not what they think about their performance, but more about their parentage, heritage, character and other issues.

Jimmy, your remarks are a good point. Personally the abiltiy for an offical and a coach to go at it like they can in baseball is one of the beautifull parts of the game. In no other pro sport does this happen. From Billy Martin, to Earl Weaver, to Sweet Lou, to Ozzie, and Bobby Cox an umpire may not like having to deal with their antics but as a true fan first I love it about the game.

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