How many on a college roster is too many?

KD,
I'm no expert on the subject but I think you have to look further down the road than who is on their roster now. It will be essentially 2 years before this years high school seniors get to college baseball season. A lot can change in that time including transfers, injuries, next years class, etc.

I think the most important thing to consider is the school itself and if your son will enjoy the experience regardless of what happens on the field. If he is meant to be an everyday player on the field and has the skills,
the baseball side will work itself out.

JMO

Now your talkin' H & U.

True words.

Good advice H&U.

I would also advise you to get to know the coaching staff as well as possible and talk to former players who have played there. Also, look at how many players transfer after one or two years.

The reality is, if your not happy with the first program you chose, get out! Look at the UTA roster last year, many of the players were playing at their second or 3rd college. Look at the Texas roster, I would guess 30% to 40% leave after thier freshmen or sophomore season to get a chance to play every day some where else. Unless baseball is not a top priority in choosing a college, you need to be ready to change if the situation is not right for your son.

quote:

Originally posted by reggie-3-77:
I would also advise you to get to know the coaching staff as well as possible and talk to former players who have played there. Also, look at how many players transfer after one or two years.

The reality is, if your not happy with the first program you chose, get out! Look at the UTA roster last year, many of the players were playing at their second or 3rd college. Look at the Texas roster, I would guess 30% to 40% leave after thier freshmen or sophomore season to get a chance to play every day some where else. Unless baseball is not a top priority in choosing a college, you need to be ready to change if the situation is not right for your son.

I sort of understand what your saying but can I offer a different perspective?

Allowing youngsters to just "get out" isn't a good message in my opinion.

We all make decisions in life. Some good, some bad. But in my opinion, too many times kids are allowed to just "get out" of a situation. There is something to be said about learning from a bad situation.

Now circumstances can be bad enough to warrant a change, but I think today's society allows too much ease in "just getting out".

IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:


Allowing youngsters to just "get out" isn't a good message in my opinion.

We all make decisions in life. Some good, some bad. But in my opinion, too many times kids are allowed to just "get out" of a situation. There is something to be said about learning from a bad situation.

Now circumstances can be bad enough to warrant a change, but I think today's society allows too much ease in "just getting out".

IMHO.

Ken, I agree 100% with your statement. I have worked for the same guy for 16 years, thru good times and bad. When paychecks had to be held onto for a couple of extra days to make sure they were good to times like now where a 70 hour week is still not enough. Some people say it's a character flaw, I don't think so.

With that said, there seems to be a portion of College Recruiting that reminds me of Used Car Salesmen. They sell the kid and the rest of the family on situation X, but time and time again I hear horror stories about kids showing up and things being 180 degrees from what was stated during the "process"

This is where I think this website is a great tool, to find out who the real "Used Car Salesmen" are, and who are the upstanding coaches. But even then, the coach can leave without any punishment and all of his good intentions leave with him.

You gotta outhit and outplay the players ahead of you, even with you, and behind you.

Every year.

No matter who the coach or the players are.

You have to win your position every year.

It doesn't matter how many are on the roster.

Look at the stats.

Only about 9-11 play in the field.

Maybe 5-6 pitchers out of maybe 15-20 get more than a few innings.

The best hitters play and the best pitchers pitch.

FO is right -- the stats are on the sites -- innings are hard to come by at times -- but those that hit, play. Some schools recruit athletes that can play multiple positions -- and they sell the team concept, which is to be expected. Playing college baseball is like having a full-time job. Those that perform are rewarded. There are no sure things.....so a player's makeup is nearly as important as his skill set. I too have noticed how many baseball kids change schools....perhaps more than in the other sports. The fact that the scholarships are partial may play a large part in the decision-making process.

Before we get too far into this debate, I have been working for the same company for 25 years, married to the same person for 24. I am not advocating change for the sake of change. But, if playing baseball is a top priority for your son in choosing a college, being in a bad situation 4 for years is not very rational. I will bet you that where ever your son decides to go next year, at least 20% of the incoming freshmen baseball players will transfer after their first year or 2. Not every situation will be right for him.

Keller Dad,
I agree with Former Observer’s way of thinking. It doesn’t matter how many players are on the roster, all it takes is one other player to put your son on the bench. I had some real concerns prior to my son signing his NLI because there were 5 catchers on the roster. I asked the coach about each catcher and what he saw each catcher’s role in the following years. He was very honest and explained as best he could. He said: “There are no guarantees but this will be your son’s position to lose.”
On transfers: I don’t think I would go in with a transfer as being part of the plan but I would never rule out a transfer. A transfer can be the best thing for a student/athlete if things don’t pan out. In college athletics things don't always pan out as anticipated. Players do get caught up in the "recruiting hype" you talk about.

Honest and Unbiased writes:

quote:

I think the most important thing to consider is the school itself and if your son will enjoy the experience regardless of what happens on the field.

Some players may agree to that philosophy but not the dedicated baseball player. It varies with each player. You have to ask yourself; "How important is it to my son that he play college baseball?"
Of course as a parent I think it sounds honorable but most ball players don’t surrender their bat and glove quite that easily. They want to play college baseball any they should if they have the ability to play college baseball. The game of baseball, while it may not be ultimate career of most student/athletes, is a very important aspect of their college experience. I say find the right “fit” on the baseball team (without compromising academics) and your son will have a great college experience.
Fungo

It is also very important to remember that not all transfers/opportunities are because of dissatisfaction. Many are because a player gets seen in a summer league and word gets to the player about other programs being "very" interested. Luckily, this was what confronted and challenged our son.
But transfering has a number of academic issues, the most important being losing credits. Any player in this situation may lose enough credits that they will surely be in school for 5 years and in some cases 6. For ours, even though he could have played in the ACC, having at least one full additional year of college was a major downside that dissuaded him from transfering. Even with the academic downside, the quality of the baseball experience is extremely important and weighs heavily in transfer decision making process.
KellerDad, I agree with the responses you have received about depth and being the best player. If depth is an issue, I would very strongly recommend going to Fall practices and doing your own assessment of the "quality" of the depth. I do think most coaches will give you best judgements, but it it helps to supplement the coaching input with your view of the quality of those outfielders and realistically assess your son's skills comparatively.
Finally, if you are not familiar with the program and allocation of innings, I would go through box scores for at least the past year to see how the coach handles depth. Many play the same 8 day in and day out, especially at top 40 programs at all levels. If you end up the 4th outfielder at a program with that approach, you can be a good player with no AB's.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
If you end up the 4th outfielder at a program with that approach, you can be a good player with no AB's.

Did you forget to put down that that player also got 1 year of a college education?

Let's not forget folks, playing college athletics is important because it allows an athletic environment to accomplish the primary purpose......

an education.

I must second that statement Ken. Some players may be solid players, not studs... solid, and just looking to use baseball to get into a school maybe that would be much more difficult to get into if baseball wasn't there.

I would like to know the flip side of the issue. How does an exceptional student (3.95 GPA) fair in gettting an athletic scholarship vs an average student? How much difference will this make when being recruited/signed?

Ken, I didn't forget the education/quality of education at all. I thought that by including the academic "downside" to transfering, the importance of education was incorporated. If not, I apologize.
Our son graduated in 4 years from a top academic DIII in TX. He took 17 and 18 units the last two years, even during baseball season, to accomplish that goal. Great academics and good baseball can and should coexist but the student athlete needs to be very disciplined at both.

Interesting thread and question.

After one year of college experience, my naivete has been mitigated somewhat with the hard realities that FO speaks of. At many colleges, you can not just look at the roster to determine the roster. I noticed one roster when my son was recruited, another one when he entered in the fall. A different roster altogether when the spring practices started. All the while kids were being dropped or added to the program.

I see it as a continual tryout where the competition will be carried out on a national scale in some cases. Five outfielders does not sound like an inordinate amount to me and the actual starters come next spring (or two springs from now) may be playing at a JUCO or another college right now.

I understand what Ken has said about education being the primary importance. It may be in many cases. In other cases, baseball is the primary importance as Fungo has suggested. It is nice to try and seek a balance between the two requirements - if possible.

John G.- coming from a school where academics are generally high I will say that kids often get partial athletic, partial academic scholarships. This allows them to save athletic scholarships. I also have heard of scouts asking to only look at kids that are eligible academicly.

quote:

I understand what Ken has said about education being the primary importance. It may be in many cases. In other cases, baseball is the primary importance as Fungo has suggested. It is nice to try and seek a balance between the two requirements - if possible

Great points CD. In my view, the "balance" is/ can very much be impacted by playing time. When you see the amount of time/effort/sacrifice that college players at all levels commit, to sit on the bench and maybe get 20-25 AB's or 10-15 innings is extremely difficult.
To a certain extent, players can experience some variability of performance in the classroom and succeed academically. To be honest, if they have that same variability on the field, they will lose some/all playing time.
I am sure there are exceptions, but from what I have seen, for a talented and driven player, getting a 3.5 in his classes wouldn't overcome the disppointment of getting 20-25 AB's in a college season. It might not be right but I think I can understand it better now that I know how much of himself a player commits when he plays college baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by John G.:
I would like to know the flip side of the issue. How does an exceptional student (3.95 GPA) fair in gettting an athletic scholarship vs an average student? How much difference will this make when being recruited/signed?

I know it has opened doors in the recruitment process to my son. Some of the Ivy's and schools like Trinity and Emory have contacted my son because they meet their profile as a student first.

I think some are missing the point here.........

If your son is disappointed in the playing time he achieves, it's probably warranted by his baseball ability. Some cases not, but let's just say it is for this example.

If playing time is limited, son may be dejected which leads to transfer ideas.

My suggestion is this, try and make the kid understand that it's not the AB's that are important. It's the piece of paper he gets when his 4 to 5 years are done.

If your son is struggling with playing time at a college, chances are he won't be playing the game after college. There are examples that go against this, but they are few and far between.

So, try to help the student/athlete understand that those 25-30 AB's may not seem like much, but that full year of education working towards that degree is a whole lot that came with that 25-30 AB's.

Or, you could just transfer and more than likely be in the same situation again.

But we are getting away from the basic question. How many position players at each position is too many?

Is 7 OF normal?

I'd be concerned with 7 eligible outfielders on a roster -- if 4-5 are juniors or seniors and the school sends players to pro ball, it might be more acceptable. JMO.

KD- I think these are good questions for a HS coach... a good one at least. I would think with kids trying to get into college, HS coaches have been asked these questions before... I could be wrong.

The answer is never definate.....

But, if your son is offered a "reasonable" scholarship, I would think the college is interested in seeing your son reach their expectations.

quote:

I also have heard of scouts asking to only look at kids that are eligible academicly.

DTiger are speaking of pro scouts or college coaches?

Kellerdad,
I looked at roster at son's school roster from last year. 35, 7 are outfielders, 2 redshirted. I would assume that to be a normal number for that size roster.

quote:

But we are getting away from the basic question. How many position players at each position is too many?

Is 7 OF normal?

I am not exactly sure what is normal. 7 may be normal if the seventh guy can also be a DH. I was told they (e.g., my son's college) like to have at least two position players at every position so that they can run full team intra-squad scrimmages. They need more catchers for obvious reasons. I was shocked at how much throwing my son was doing as an infielder until I watched the catchers work out. I am not surprised when I hear about catchers having arm problems.

I am guessing the positon player numbers/needs can vary from team to team depending on how strong some of the hitters are at the respective positions.

quote:

Posted August 15, 2006 08:03 PM
I think some are missing the point here.........

If your son is disappointed in the playing time he achieves, it's probably warranted by his baseball ability. Some cases not, but let's just say it is for this example.

If playing time is limited, son may be dejected which leads to transfer ideas.

My suggestion is this, try and make the kid understand that it's not the AB's that are important. It's the piece of paper he gets when his 4 to 5 years are done.

If your son is struggling with playing time at a college, chances are he won't be playing the game after college. There are examples that go against this, but they are few and far between.

So, try to help the student/athlete understand that those 25-30 AB's may not seem like much, but that full year of education working towards that degree is a whole lot that came with that 25-30 AB's.

Or, you could just transfer and more than likely be in the same situation again.

With all due respect, I completely disagree with this point of view. I do not want my son to settle for not being happy or satisfied in baseball or in life, especially when the result of his decision will most likely not adversely impact anyone including the coach. I also know many players who have transferred and believe it was a very good decision. Many of the players sign at a D-1 and do not see any playing time and transfer to a JUCO to get a chance to mature and receive more playing time or transfer to a D-2 or D-3 because playing baseball is very important to them. I work with many people who go to work each day complaining about their job. My advice has always been, if you’re not happy in your job or anything in your life, do something about it!

In the long run it is the degree that will be most important goal, but transferring will not necessarily result in your son not getting his degree. That’s up to him to get the job done in the class room as well as on the field. If he is happy with something he loves (baseball), he will be more likely to succeed in the classroom also!

quote:

My advice has always been, if you’re not happy in your job or anything in your life, do something about it!

The number of position players is dependent upon coaches philosophy and his coaching ability. While 5 -7 may seems like a lot, you have to break it down right handed, left handed as many of the larger schools will pinch hit and sub acoording to the pitching changes made during a game. This way, many of the players do get to play, not necessarily everyday, but enough to get in experience. This avoids the redshirt issue.

Of course the OF that can field his position well and produce either a good BA, significant RBI's or a way to get on base, the position will be his and remain his until he doesn't produce anymore.

Also remember you may have catchers and infielders who can play OF, but it is not listed as such. A wise coach will use his players to the best of their ability, under different circumstances. A wise coach also knows he can't get by in a season with only 2 players per position (not including pitchers) with 58 games plus post season.

Rather go with how many are listed at the position I would look for the entire roster size, no more than 35 was it for us. Consider things like how many games per week are played, if only two,three, 7 may be too many, with 5 it may be just right.

Ther eare lots of factors to determine what is too much and what is to little.

Ken makes a very good point. They don't give good % scholly's to kids that will be buried on their bench. Obviously, you have to perform when you get there....but I agree that they want the kids' expectations to be met.

quote:

Originally posted by reggie-3-77:

quote:

Posted August 15, 2006 08:03 PM
I think some are missing the point here.........

If your son is disappointed in the playing time he achieves, it's probably warranted by his baseball ability. Some cases not, but let's just say it is for this example.

If playing time is limited, son may be dejected which leads to transfer ideas.

My suggestion is this, try and make the kid understand that it's not the AB's that are important. It's the piece of paper he gets when his 4 to 5 years are done.

If your son is struggling with playing time at a college, chances are he won't be playing the game after college. There are examples that go against this, but they are few and far between.

So, try to help the student/athlete understand that those 25-30 AB's may not seem like much, but that full year of education working towards that degree is a whole lot that came with that 25-30 AB's.

Or, you could just transfer and more than likely be in the same situation again.

With all due respect, I completely disagree with this point of view. I do not want my son to settle for not being happy or satisfied in baseball or in life, especially when the result of his decision will most likely not adversely impact anyone including the coach. I also know many players who have transferred and believe it was a very good decision. Many of the players sign at a D-1 and do not see any playing time and transfer to a JUCO to get a chance to mature and receive more playing time or transfer to a D-2 or D-3 because playing baseball is very important to them. I work with many people who go to work each day complaining about their job. My advice has always been, if you’re not happy in your job or anything in your life, do something about it!

In the long run it is the degree that will be most important goal, but transferring will not necessarily result in your son not getting his degree. That’s up to him to get the job done in the class room as well as on the field. If he is happy with something he loves (baseball), he will be more likely to succeed in the classroom also!

And with respect, I do see your point of view.

I guess it all goes back to the new age and the way things are done today vs. a decade ago.

Just like in the big leagues with free agency and trades, it is rare to see a player finish his career with one team.

Just like transfering High School's for players today. Ten years ago that was unheard of.

Things are just different. Individuals are looking to make sure their situation is better for them regardless of the circumstance. And I can certainly see some validity in that.

I personally, hope to teach my son to make the best of the decisions he makes. Some may not work out as originally planned. But as an adult, I can look back and say the things I learned in situations that weren't perfect were just as beneficial as some situations that worked out as planned.

How many posters had fathers who retired with the company they started with? I would bet it is much greater than percentages today.

Times have changed indeed.

It's a personal opinion if they have changed for the better or not.

That's why I have moved to BFE. Yeah, I know there are problems everywhere. But I hope to limit them for my son with an environment that might provide what I think the important things in life are.

And...........

AB's in college is not at the top of my list for him.

Transfering colleges worked out pretty well for Troy Aikman.....

quote:

AB's in college is not at the top of my list for him.

Ken it struck me odd that you call it MY list?
Where is his list? Where does AB's fall on his list? I agree parents and players should discuss these issues but misunderstandings arise when the parent and the player don't agree on the goals. Shouldn't these young men be chasing their goals?
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:

quote:

AB's in college is not at the top of my list for him.

Ken it struck me odd that you call it MY list?
Where is his list? Where does AB's fall on his list? I agree parents and players should discuss these issues but misunderstandings arise when the parent and the player don't agree on the goals. Shouldn't these young men be chasing their goals?
Fungo

Absolutely. And I will be the happiest dad alive if he enjoys baseball.

But it's not my job to push him that direction. I was simply implying that his AB's will not be what's important to me.

They might be for him, but that's where I try and help him understand why he is there in the first place and a little more work and better performance might get some increased playing time.

I personally, hope he likes golf. Now that's a sport. No scouts, just put up the score baby.

Ken, Funny you mention golf. Now that I have spent all this money on bats and gloves over the years for my son and he's finally making a little spending money playing pro ball, one of the first things he does is buys himself as set of Cleveland G4 clubs.
Fungo

Fungo- College scouts. A friend of mine was at a showcase and a scout walked by saying he was very impressed with the Tiger organization and Dallas baseball in general. He then asked if any players were eligible academicly for Stanford.

First question on Stanford's entrance exam:

Spell "academically" -- hint: if you miss this one, turn in your paper, do not pass GO, do not collect $200!