How much difference in speed for a pitching surface?

We had a kid throwing 77-78mph in gym no mound, in his high school tryouts with mound thru 82mph, not really sure how accurate either radar was but you would think a couple miles an hour, maybe somebody with a radar gun could chech it out.

I'd say put away the radar gun and play baseball. Let these kids play baseball for the right reasons. Save the radar gun for the showcases.

I don't really agree with ballpark here. My son doesn't pitch so maybe my views are skewed. But velocity is one of the primary elements that scouts and college coaches consider in a pitcher. Why would you choose to remain ignorant of what your fastball velocity is?

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I don't really agree with ballpark here. My son doesn't pitch so maybe my views are skewed. But velocity is one of the primary elements that scouts and college coaches consider in a pitcher. Why would you choose to remain ignorant of what your fastball velocity is?

Rob, my son does pitch and my views may be skewed as well. I can honestly say that I have never owned a radar gun or hounded folks who did to clock my son. I had an uneducated guess at what he threw before someone told me what they saw on a gun. This year he is a sophomore in college and I could not tell you today what he tops out at or cruises at. I do know what he has hit in the past (year ago or so). My point being that I don't feel there is any problem being ignorant of your sons velocity. If he can pitch he will pitch. Folks will decide if he can pitch and if he has the needed velocity to be successful. In my opinion, work just as hard with or without the velo and then you've done everything that is in your control.

Not arguing with you Rob, just saying how I look at it and approached it.

It isn't about ignorance, as much as overuse of the radar gun. I feel the same way about playing for the scouts in the stands instead of playing for the team in your dugout.

Play the game for the right reasons and let the rest take care of itself. It goes back to enjoying the ride instead of always thinking about what will happen some time in the future.

My feeling is that the last thing you want a kid to do is pitch to/for the gun during a game.
IMO if a kid is always focused on his FB speed he could lose his focus or screw up his delivery trying to throw too hard. Then you risk a bad outing and possibly an injury.
The only good pitch speed is when it comes via a pitchers natural and fluid delivery which he can maintain for years to come.

There is a time and a place to focus on pitch speed, it is not soemthing that should be the focus of every pitch everyday.

This first time my son was gunned was 14U. It was done by a dad on the sideline. I wasn't aware of it at the time. Neither was my son. I wasn't concerned how hard a 5'4", 120 pound kid throws. In 16U travel and high school they get gunned at the beginning and end of the season in practice.

This year on the travel team they were gunned along with being video'd. My son was given a copy of the video detailing to flaws the pitching coach said are taking 3-4 mph from his fastball. So the goal is fix the mechanics and add the extra mph. With permission, I forwarded the video to his high school coach.

My son has gone through tremendous physical growth in the past couple of years. All his velocity is natural. In the offseason between soph and junior year he'll focus on arm strength and velocity for the first time.

The journey is a marathon, not a sprint. I've seen dads try to work on everything before kids pass through puberty/growth and destroy the kid's health.

There are two goals. 1) Work hard to become a good player and have fun "playing" the game, and 2) be showcase ready by summer after junior year.

fillsfan, there is a big difference in knowing the velocity of a pitcher and having it be the "focus of every pitch everyday". Nothing wrong with getting a reading here and there to measure progress. I'm talking about different points in the season, not a game. Don't become obsessed with it, but you don't have to ignore it. If you don't want to know or just aren't interested, that's fine for you. Doesn't mean it is wrong for someone else to want to know. JMHO.

I don't own a radar gun. I could careless about a radar gun and at this time, really how fast T-bone is throwing. He is an 8th grader playing high school ball and they happened to record his velocity around 80 mph pitching off a flat surface yesterday. I thought it was interesting that he was throwing so much faster this year with excellent mechanics that he didn't have in years past. I also asked a simple question of how much difference there is in the velociy of a pitcher throwing from a flat surface to pitching off of a mound? I am more concern about my son's mechanics than anything else right now. However, since I do know his velocity, I was glad to see how proper mechanics and proper pitching lessons are starting to pay off.

I think a radar gun can be a valuable tool, even in bullpens. It gives a coach a way to accurately gauge how well a pitcher holds his velocity, as well as the seperation between a fastball and offspeed pitches. Some folks can get a decent idea of this by naked eye, but a gun can't hurt. The problem arises from the pitcher overthrowing trying to ring up a big number. However, it is often the case that when a pitcher really bows up and tries to let one rip, their velocity actually doesn't change or may drop a little. Showing them this may help reinforce the idea of not overthrowing.

I would still base my judgements of who pitches and if someone continues to pitch on whether they're still effective, regardless of what the gun may say unless you're getting to a point where the pitch count is up and it looks like the pitcher is done.

That is 100% correct Emanski. I have seen it happen and that is a great teaching tool for the kids. Shows them that in a game situation, no matter the situation, just make your pitch. Don't try to bow up. Just stay calm and make your pitch.

bballman/rain delay,
Boy, you guys are a little sensitive today.
I stand by my post, don't obess on the speed. It is not a bad thing to be clocked during training, but once the games start forget about. If it's there it will come with proper work and training.

I agree with Emanski, the more you try to throw hard for the gun, the higher the chances are that you won't.

I am a firm believer that the more we clutter our kids heads with speed, power, scouts, and acheivements the more they try and play to those things instead of just playing naturally and letting their talent take over. Train hard in the off season, practice hard during the season and be focused during the games and all the stats and the other stuff will take care of itself.

Sorry fillsfan, didn't mean to seem touchy. I agree, you don't need to be obsessed. I have seen this on a team where they had a dad gunning kids - every pitch every game. It was rediculous. I asked the coach about it and he said he basically had that dad do it so he would stay away from the dugout and quit bugging him.

Still don't think it's bad to measure progress during the season.

I think it is nice to know the velocity if it is gunned but I wouldn't go out of my way to have him gunned. Like Rain Delay's T-bone my son is a 14yr old (just turned a week ago) 8th grade left handed pitcher. He has been gunned twice ever that we know of. Once last fall and once in January. Both times were after periods of little throwing so I don't put much weight on the readings and told my son the same. Told him the batters would let him know if he is throwing hard enough or not. Being a lefty his big thing is movement...ball moves all over the place, even when throwing a 4 seamer it is rarely straight. Movement and location are what are important now...though good velocity like T-bone has wouldn't hurt either.

I do agree that getting a reading is good for watching progression. Bum has some great age vs velocity progressions from his son Bum Jr as he aged from 13 and up. It is helpful in that matter to see that you are still progressing as a pitcher.

It shouldn't ever be a focus, but realistically come showcase time "speed sells" no matter how much we like to think it is location and movement and results.

I think it was RJM that mentioned that a coach thought that by ironing out his son's mechanics he would find 3-4mph. I honestly believe this to be true with my son as well. He has never had a true "pitching coach". We will go that route this winter to prepare for High School ball next year.

set up the hitter, hit your targets, help your team.....i've never seen a number on a radar gun help a team.

agreed, that if used correctly a series of radar results (in workout setting only) can help to gauge progress for scouts, college coaches, etc. i hate it when they pull the guns out in game situations (for hs players or lower, college and above should be used to the presence).

So back to rain delays question does anyone know the dif of mph from a flat surface compared to a mound?

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
I have seen this on a team where they had a dad gunning kids - every pitch every game. It was ridiculous. I asked the coach about it and he said he basically had that dad do it so he would stay away from the dugout and quit bugging him.

Huh? He told me I was really helping the team.


There is talk here of throwing for the gun messing with mechanics. Now, I don't know too much about pitching. But I wonder, wouldn't pitching from a flat surface instead of a slope kind of hinder good mechanics if speed is an objective?

Yes, but many of us with limited indoor facilities , in Northern climates( that don't cost outrageous amounts) don' have a indoor mound. I think you were joking--infidel_08 so pardon me, but the whole point of the question is just what dif it makes in mph of coarse pitching from a flat surface does decrease speed, the question is how much?

Why would a pitcher be gunned off a flat surface?

This study says 3 mph:

"According to the study, Kinematic And Kinetic Comparison Of Baseball Pitching From A Mound And Throwing From Flat Ground, G.S. Fleisig, R.F. Escamilla, S.W. Barrentine, N. Zheng, J.R. Andrews, American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, AL 35205, the difference in stress on the arm from throwing off the mound versus flat ground is as follows (first number represents defeat from mound mound/second number represents 60 ft. on flat ground)

Arm cocking phase:
Elbow varus torque 54 ± 7/51 ± 8,
Shoulder internal rotation torque 55 ± 10 /54 ± 10,
Shoulder anterior force 330 ± 40 /340 ± 70

Arm acceleration phase:
Elbow flexion torque 52 ± 7/52 ± 8
Arm deceleration phase:
Elbow compressive force 800 ± 90/780 ± 100,
Shoulder compressive force 910 ± 110/890 ± 110,
Shoulder posterior force 360 ± 200/350 ± 150

Instant of ball release:
Ball speed (mph) 79 ± 4/76 ± 4

From these numbers we see that there's virtually no difference with between flat ground and mound with respect to stress represented by torque and force on the arm. From a percentage standpoint there is a significantly greater percentage increase in velocity throwing off the mound as compared to the present difference of stress on the arm in other words it appears that can throw with greater velocity with less stress off the mound you can on flat ground. Which makes sense, i.e. the additional dropping distance due to the mound versus flat ground allows more energy to be developed from the falling potential to kinetic energy of the body. Bottom-line, flat ground throwing is neither a significant negative or significant positive with respect to its effect on throwing ability. How and when its used as part of a larger training program, training plan."

http://www.webball.com/cms/page1432.cfm

Do you throw from a flat surface in a game? I don't think so


So why worry about it

quote:

Originally posted by Baseball Dad 46:
I think you were joking--infidel_08 so pardon me, but the whole point of the question is just what dif it makes in mph of coarse pitching from a flat surface does decrease speed, the question is how much?

Contrary to my normal nature, I wasn't joking. Sorry. I really didn't know if there are detrimental effects from pitching full speed from a flat surface. I think I'm reading Backstop-17's interpretation that there's no problem pitching from the flat surface as opposed to a slope. Let 'er rip.


Still, I have to agree with TR on this one, "Why worry about it?"

quote:

This study says 3 mph:

I'm glad to see someone finally answered this guys simple question.

I guess I'm feeling grumpy today.

So now that you know the average gain is 3MPH from the hill, what will you do with that information?

If one is tracking velocities, I think it would be better to keep things constant. Maybe you need track the flats separate from the slopes.

Oh, by the way, was this a JUGGS or Stalker.

To me it is still pointless; especially if it is just for bragging rights.

We do it for fun, we can't get outside on a mound till March just for shi** and giggles no real reason just asking a question.

A little off topic I guess, but as long as we're there...My pet peeve as far as using guns is that my son's HS coach has a gun on the pitchers the first week of practice when they are throwing in the gym due to cold weather outside. Some of the pitchers are not really in great throwing shape yet and get sore arms trying to impress the coach with good readings. There is one kid who has had a sore arm from this each of the last two years and probably will again this year. Is this common practice? I don't know why there is the need to get the gun out so early and tempt these kids to throw hard before they may be ready.

quote:

Originally posted by infidel_08:

So now that you know the average gain is 3MPH from the hill, what will you do with that information?

To me it is still pointless; especially if it is just for bragging rights.

Good observation.

For some strange reason, I get the impression that a lot of this inquiry is not for a learning opportunity, but to let us know how good your player is without coming off as bragging. If you didn't care you wouldn't ask.

I don't understand why anyone would gun an 8th grader on flat gound anyway this early in the season. Getting too hung up on pitchers velo at such a young age IS NOT GOOD. JMO.

I don't think I am the only one who has noticed it. Please scroll down further on the boards to see that you can post your pitching questions in another forum.

First of all, in this part of the country my son has played more baseball games pitching off a flat surface at beer league soft ball fields than at upscale super nice baseball fields as found in other parts of the country.Especially, in spoiled South Florida. We would truly have to go out of state to find baseball fields much less fields with grass infields. It wasn't until last year he started throwing regulary off a mound. Secondly, I'm involved in the science field as my profession and I have a very deductive mind in trying to find out things. As far my son, I can't help if was practicing with 17 and 18 year old kids throwing the other day when they had a gun out for fun checking out everyone's speeds. I agree, I think it really doesn't matter how hard T-bone throws at this age and there is no need to obsess about it. I just honestly wanted to know if there was a difference in speed between throwing off a mound and a flat surface? And I got my answer, thanks for answering it. Sorry to bother and come across bragging.

rain delay-- I think somehow your off the cuff question got twisted into a bigger deal then it was meant to--Everyone who has children and loves them braggs about them, don't apoligize , just forgive-forget and move on-to the next baseball question.

quote:

My pet peeve as far as using guns is that my son's HS coach has a gun on the pitchers the first week of practice when they are throwing in the gym due to cold weather outside. Some of the pitchers are not really in great throwing shape yet and get sore arms trying to impress the coach with good readings.

Isn't it the pitcher's fault for not showing up with his arm in shape? Our high school's coach tells the kids one month before tryouts to show up with their arm in shape ready to throw. They only have two weeks after tryouts before the first game. Getting ready can't wait. Even if they're playing another sport it's not difficult to get in some throwing three times a week.

Not sure where you get the impression that the fields here in Florida are so superior.

If you are involved in the science field or any field for that matter, I suppose one could google to find out the answer. But you must realize by now that most topics turn into discussions. Maybe on page 2 or 3 or 4 you will get the answer.

I only suggested that you post in the pitching thread, because it is visited more by those that have more knowledge in pitching.

You must have a talented son to be in 8th grade and play in varsity, but your example (using the gun for fun) shows why, IMO, young players do not always belong with older players.

Would be good for you to do some homework, read up on Dr. Andrews feelings about gunning young players when not necessary and why.

Some of us have been there and done that, some have learned the do's and don't's. If you truely feel your son shows promise after HS, you will read through the info posted here carefully.

I am sorry if you feel offended by my post, I guess I am only speaking for myself and my perception and some suggestions to help you.

JMO.

quote:

I don't understand why anyone would gun an 8th grader...

I agree. Big red flag. Odd, at best.

quote:

Isn't it the pitcher's fault for not showing up with his arm in shape? Our high school's coach tells the kids one month before tryouts to show up with their arm in shape ready to throw. They only have two weeks after tryouts before the first game. Getting ready can't wait. Even if they're playing another sport it's not difficult to get in some throwing three times a week.

Actually it is pretty darn difficult where we live to get throwing in before baseball practice starts, unless you want to spend a ton of money in private training facilities. Luckily, I am able to afford to get my own son into a facility a couple of times a week to throw over the winter, and he also attends a conditioning program for pitchers. But if you are not willing or able to pay the high rates they charge for cages around us, then yes, it is difficult. The school does not make any gym space available to the kids before the start of practice, and it is too cold and snowy to throw outside. Yes, the coach tells the kids to throw to get in shape for the season, but there is no provision made to facilitate that...every player is on their own. When my son was a freshman, we used to sneak into the school gyms in the evenings until the janitor would throw us out. After a while that didn't work either. I know kids who would love to throw more but can't.

quote:

Originally posted by casey75:

quote:

Isn't it the pitcher's fault for not showing up with his arm in shape? Our high school's coach tells the kids one month before tryouts to show up with their arm in shape ready to throw. They only have two weeks after tryouts before the first game. Getting ready can't wait. Even if they're playing another sport it's not difficult to get in some throwing three times a week.

Actually it is pretty darn difficult where we live to get throwing in before baseball practice starts, unless you want to spend a ton of money in private training facilities. Luckily, I am able to afford to get my own son into a facility a couple of times a week to throw over the winter, and he also attends a conditioning program for pitchers. But if you are not willing or able to pay the high rates they charge for cages around us, then yes, it is difficult. The school does not make any gym space available to the kids before the start of practice, and it is too cold and snowy to throw outside. Yes, the coach tells the kids to throw to get in shape for the season, but there is no provision made to facilitate that...every player is on their own. When my son was a freshman, we used to sneak into the school gyms in the evenings until the janitor would throw us out. After a while that didn't work either. I know kids who would love to throw more but can't.

My son's coach got gym time for prospective players from 5:45-7am three days a week. A lane in a baseball academy is $25 for 30 minutes or $6.25 each for four.

quote:

My son's coach got gym time for prospective players from 5:45-7am three days a week. A lane in a baseball academy is $25 for 30 minutes or $6.25 each for four.

That's great...there are some other schools around us where the coaches also make gym time available for their teams. I have asked our coach the last couple of years if he would be able to reserve some gym time for the players who want to throw, and we could get parent volunteers to supervise if adults need to be present, but that has been a no-go.

quote:

Not sure where you get the impression that the fields here in Florida are so superior.

One thing I do know about Florida fields is that after the daily afternoon shower/storm, they dry out a lot faster than the fields up here.

quote:

Originally posted by golfball:

quote:

Not sure where you get the impression that the fields here in Florida are so superior.

One thing I do know about Florida fields is that after the daily afternoon shower/storm, they dry out a lot faster than the fields up here.

Ask Perfect Game how well those MLB practice fields in Jupiter dry out after a REAL Florida rainstorm, not an afternoon quicky.