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46 replies

how much should an ump crew influence a game?

A ACowboyFan100+ posts
Ok,

I understand umpires are mortal men and make mistakes but how the Umpire Crew the called the Coppell - Keller series inserted themselves into this series was just plain wrong.

All three guys had small strike zones, a shoe box is bigger. In game one the guy behind the plate had to wait to decide if he thourht it was a strike or not. If a ball passed through the strike zone it wasn't a strike. To Keller's credit their hitters at least figured it out early and just waited for the ump to make our pitchers either walk them or put it on the tee...right down the middle. This same guy would again insert himself in game three but we will get there later. I think that guy really thinks the game is about him.

A wise man told me tonight that he was told by a wise old ump that if an umpire wants to stay an umpire for a long time that that umpire should have a strike zone that promotes hitters swinging the bat and moves the game along. ( I change the words a bit but I think you get the point).

Games two was just as bad from a strike zone perspective. No corners and no calls on strikes that got the black.

Hey, buy at least the first two guys were consistent on their non-strike zone.

Game three, WOW!!! not only did the homeplate umpire have a small strike zone small but it was all over the place. That was confirmed by one of our top hitters. Then the ump that was behind homeplate in game one decides he needs a little attention so he calls a balk on Cole Green, Cole had not even stepped on the rubber yet and would have had the guy on first picked off but instead the guy on third was awarded home.

Then in the bottom of the sixth inning with the bases load and 1 out, Higgy lays down a great two strike bunt on for a squeeze, our guy on third get to the plate before the third baseman can get to ball to the catcher who is squatted beyond the plate, the homeplate umpire calls him safe, the runs scores.....but nooooooooo mister I got to control the game on the firstbase line comes in to talk with the homeplate umpire and reminds him it was a force out situation and calls our guy out and disallows the run. The homeplate ump was the only one who could see the play and once he made the call then the call should stand and the run should stand. He never asked for help and didn't need it.

But justice does prevail, Johnny Walsh comes up and hits a towering pop-fly to left and the wind grabs the ball and does all kinds of funny stuff to it. The left fielder drops the ball and three runs score for Coppell to take the 5-3 lead. Unfortunately for the kid playing left field, we did feel bad for him, a higher power decided he waqsn't going to let this crew change the outcome of the game. I hope to never see those three umpires again.

Hey, a bad call happens, small strike zones happen but not three in a row on the same crew. All these guys need to go back to umpire school, I wouldn't even wish these guys on the JV.
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Old PitcherOld Pitcher1,000+ posts
It irritates me when an umpire has an extremely small strike zone in HS. Some guys behind the plate act like these kids are big league pitchers and have to throw black to black. I think in HS, a couple of inches, side to side and up and down is acceptable. These are HS pitchers for crying out loud.

Umpires should never, ever try to be a part of the game. They should only make judgements on what happens in the game in my opinion.

disclaimer......I do have a son that pitches, so I'm a little biased in my opinion.
Last edited by Old Pitcher
A ACowboyFan100+ posts
This isn't just about the strike zone. These guys tried their best to determine the outcome of the game.

And even in summer ball most umpires have bigger strike zones then these three guys.

Clemente, you are right outside is outside but if the any part of the ball crosses the strike zone at the plate...not were the batter is standing in the box...it should be called a strike most of the time.

And it is during the summer time.
B blackhawk3210+ posts
I felt I was squeezed more than my liking against Flower Mound earlier in the season...

But as far as playoffs...I have to vent this a little bit Smile There are, at least in our case, four umpires. One would think that four umpires could make better calls in more important games than the traditional two, right? I have found this assumption wrong in several instances but it had to rear its ugly head in our series this weekend. NOW, I am most certainly not blaming the umps on our losses (well maybe just one Smile) but it does seem to ring true in some degree. One bad call could lead to the downslide of a team for the rest of the night sometimes. It just depends on the who/when/where.

All in all, umpires are in fact human and will make mistakes. I have just found in my days that those mistakes come at the worst of times. :P
Last edited by blackhawk32
T Texan1,000+ posts
Bottom line is it happens. The pitcher better adjust. And he has to pitch smart.

When the zone is tight, movement becomes much more valuable than velocity. And the pitcher who throws straight & flat is going to get whiplash, no matter how hard he heaves.

Won't be the first tight zone the pitcher has seen, and won't be the last.
UE Uncle Ethan100+ posts
MeatsDad,
I would respectfully disagree with your analysis of the play at the plate and I am an impartial observer in this case (although I probably lean more to the Cowboys than the Indians - see "Uncle Ethan") From my vantage point, the catcher's foot was on the plate, he had the plate blocked and the Coppell runner was out on both the force and the tag. I think the umpire got caught up in the moment, was reminded of the situation by his fellow crew memeber and rightly reversed the call.

His strike zone was horrible, but the Coppell faithful screaming at him after every pitch from right behind the screen probably didn't help his attitude.

Congrats to the Cowboys. JK had a scary moment at the end. Glad to see both he and Boone get up and finish the game.
D Dtiger1,000+ posts
As a pitcher, consistency is all I ask. Don't call a curve ball that barely misses the dirt a strike and then not give the same to my change-up which drops slightly less and is usually higher. Don't give me 3 balls outside all game and then in the last inning not know where the corner is. Pitchers can adjust, in HS I think we're all that good. But being inconsistent simply messes with the pitcher's mind. Of course I wasn't there for the Coppell games. Umps are in a no-win situation. I must give them that. I must say though, all too often do I run up against a very "cocky" umpire who is going to have it his way or no way. I don't know. The fact that we need umpires proves the problem. People are going to see it their way... umps or teams.
JG John G.100+ posts
Meatsdad.... I was there at game 1 (can't comment on 2-3) the ump behind the plate was not consistant but he had a large zone...(at least 3-4 inches off the pate) not so much up and down. The bottom line is players have to adjust... I have said this before If you play outside of the metroplex the stike zones shrink...(were at an dis-atvantage) Pitchers have to learn to pitch IN THE STRIKE ZONE ...I used to complain about the BBI umps and there small pie plate zone, now im thankful that my son (son's) were forced to pitch in that zone, It taught them to pitch inside, set pitches up, and find weaknesses in players swings...JMO
A ACowboy10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MeatsDad:
The homeplate ump was the only one who could see the play and once he made the call then the call should stand and the run should stand. He never asked for help and didn't need it.

But justice does prevail, Johnny Walsh comes up and hits a towering pop-fly to left and the wind grabs the ball and does all kinds of funny stuff to it. The left fielder drops the ball and three runs score for Coppell to take the 5-3 lead.


I don't think the umpires were biased, but they were inconsistent. Although I disagreed with the homeplate ump's call in this case, at least he realized he wasn't paying attention and asked for help.

As far the Keller leftfielder, no one can blame him. It was dark and the outfield lights at Hebron are too low for a high fly. The wind was blowing cross-ways and the centerfielder was coming right at him, perhaps should have taken it. Plus he'd run a long way backwards and sideways to the warning track. Coppell also missed two or three fly balls during the game as well. Lost one completely in the dark.
A ACowboyFan100+ posts
In the end an HSBBWEB Old Timer sums it up best.

It's a very unfortunate fact that many times you must beat both a team and an umpire crew. Thanks FO for your wisdom.

UE, From my angle the catcher had neither but that is why they pay a guy to be standing almost directly over the play and in this case the plate. The umpire didn't hesitate in calling the runner safe. He also want back after a few seconds and looked where the plate was just to make sure the player had gotten to the plate. He was sure about the call and didn't ask for help but he let the other umpire talk him into over ruling a call that was already made. From were I was standing the actually touched the plate before the catcher had the ball, no force. I was 10 feet up the line and three feet behind the fence, I had a real good look at the play.

John G, the plate ump might have given the Keller pitcher the 3 inches but on a very rare occasion did any Coppell pitcher get a call that wasn't perfect. And you can't discount the up and downs in the strike zone especial the downs. The ball had to be above the knee in the catchers mitt to be a strike.

Small strikes zones are a fact of life for pitchers and batters as well. My son actually adjust well to the situation in game two, he made his curveball work because he had to, he changed speeds and he throw a lot of pitches in 4 1/3 innings.

I think De Le Chappelle as a smart senior pitcher made the adjustment quickly and was the difference in the series.

But again I say this post wasn't about the strike zone but about a crew being way to much a part of the game and trying very hard to influence the outcome....balls, strikes, balks etc...

In the end our boys grew a little bit yesterday and learned that in baseball as in life sometimes you have to overcome the circumstances to advance.
C crawdad100+ posts
An umpire with a very "small" strike zone is usually an umpire who does not have confidence in his ability to call a strike. In other words, if a pitch is a "borderline" strike, an "unsure" umpire is always going to go with the "ball" call. The very good (and experienced) umps can call the "easy" strikes as well as the "tough" strikes on the outer parts of the zone - either up and down or in and out.

Obviously the toughest pitches to call are those that cross the plate in the strike zone but are out of the strike zone by the time the catcher receives the ball - 12-6 curves and sliders are two of the toughest. Of course it works the other way too - pitches that are NOT in the strike zone when the ball crosses the plate but are then "in" the zone when the catcher receives them.

And then let's don't even get started on how hard it is to call a game in the field with a two man crew. With a man or men on base it is almost guaranteed that the lone man in the field is going to be out of position on almost any call on the bases - he usually will have to make the call from BEHIND the play. Since he can't properly see the play, he has to call what he thinks SHOULD have happened. There is really no other way to do it.

Three umpires helps that situation in the field alot.

I honestly think most umpires (99% of them) try to call a fair game. They know these high school kids deserve to have a fair game called for both teams.

One more thing - I don't know this for sure - but I think it would do more harm than good for parents to scream at the plate umpire from behind the backstop. I just can't see how that would do anything but make the calls go worse for you. Human nature is human nature - you can't change that.
Last edited by crawdad
LD Line Drive100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Old Pitcher:
Some guys behind the plate act like these kids are big league pitchers and have to throw black to black. I think in HS, a couple of inches, side to side and up and down is acceptable. These are HS pitchers for crying out loud.


The only part of that I can agree with is that these are high school players (and umpires). By this age if you can’t play (or call) the game as defined by the rules, you don’t belong on the field.

(I also appreciate you admitting your bias so please rest assured I’m not taking a shot at your son. I just see this issue differently.) Smile
Last edited by Line Drive
JAFOJAFO100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by En Fuego:
I constantly hear about the bad umpires yet I never see a father or mother take the training and put themselves out there. If you are that good from the stands, think of how good you could be on the field??? Make a difference in a young persons life....become an ump!!!
Eek
K KellerDad1,000+ posts
The strike zone was horrible, not small, just inconsistant..the play at the plate questionable...the balk was a balk.

The strike call on Justin Tramp to end the game was both high and outside. Just terrible.

The play in left that decided the game was a tough one. The kid is a converted short stop and turned the wrong way and had to adjust, he made a valiant effort but couldn't recover.

But it boils down to leaving 8 runners stranded in each of the games on Saturday.
A ACowboyFan100+ posts
En Fuego,

I compliment way more umpires then I post complaints about. It does take a certain type of person and a good memory and quick reflexes to be an umpire.

I don't have either of those anymore. But, I do coach and have coached youth kids for 20+ years , basketball, s****r, and now LL baseball. I have different skills but I am around and have interacted with umpires on a very close basis for most of my life.

So, the next time I run into an umpire or crew who is as good as the Keller/Coppell crew was bad I promise you I will post a thread about their virtues.

Coppell plays Cedar Hill this week I hope to be making that post late Friday night.
Last edited by ACowboyFan
En FuegoEn Fuego10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MeatsDad:
.... a good memory and quick reflexes to be an umpire.

I don't have either of those anymore. But, I do coach and have coached youth kids for 20+ years , basketball, s****r, and now LL baseball.....


So, the next time I run into an umpire or crew who is as good as the Keller/Coppell crew was bad I promise you I will post a thread about their virtues.



Stay behind the backstop with those LL baseballers!!
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
In theory the UMP should have no effect on the game. In reality they have a lot of effect.
There are variations on strike zones and UMPs often take away your best pitch while others call it. There are the close calls that they often get right or wrong.
The important thing is to stay grounded and deal with what you have. To dwell on bad UMPs is counhter productive. It is a thankless job and without them there would be no BB.
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