How much throwing in November and December?

My son didn't throw from November until February. Official team work started March 1. First game was March 15. He worked out and hit all winter.

My son's high school started long toss And winter conditioning on Monday.  They start hitting in Jan.  I believe.  

Generally these are weight lifting months.

 

No real throwing at all.  Maybe a light game of catch just to loosen up or if they are the type to get bored or antsy otherwise. 

The Sports Medicine world encourages 3 uninterrupted months of not throwing. The Baseball Coaches world disagrees. This has kept the Sports Medicine world busy dealing with overuse injuries.

 

Lift weights, condition and prepare for baseball season. Leave the baseball in the bucket.

I've heard differing opinions on the benefits of throwing in the off season, and benefits of not throwing in off season.  For a pitcher working on building velocity, command, work on secondary pitches, etc., doing so in the off season is when you can get that type of work done.  You can't as effectively do any of that when you are "in season".

 

I saw an online article where a pitching coach said that once an arm is fully rested, a couple of weeks after last throwing, you are unable to "bank or save" any additional rest...so resting anymore than that is not of any benefit.  Personally I think players should throw during off season.  If arms hurt, then you need to rest, and figure out what is causing the pain...bad mechanics, over use, etc.  For an otherwise healthy player, I don't see a well thought out off season throwing program being anything but beneficial.

My sons school team is conditioning now. Had two practices a week while weather was good w. Drills and occas. Scrimmages.  My son sees a pitching coach a few times a month- lately have been doing flat work. If his arm or shoulder ever feels sore they shut down for several weeks. Don't want to overuse arm but it needs to stay in good shape or you ll see soreness when they start up in Spring-at least that has been our experience. Working over the fall/winter has helped my son w mechanics and gaining velocity.

I agree with pitchers shutting down. No throwing until after the first of the year and, depending on last year's workload, possibly longer.

I don't agree with position players, unless there is a history of arm issues. I always attacked long toss in the winter.  I've told all of my guys to work out and long toss.  I think position players need to feed their arm in addition to gum workouts.

redbird5

 

Appreciate your post regarding shutting down.  Can you give reasons why?  Short of a player being injured, or over used, what benefit for a pitcher that has rested for 3-4 weeks after last competition, do they get from not throwing?  If you can't save rest, then once the 3-4 weeks are over what is the benefit?

 

Also, when do pitchers work on velocity gains, mechanics, or refining other pitches?  I have not seen pitchers able to do those things in the short period of time between 1st of the year, and HS games start.

 

My belief is that the entire shutting it down theory revolves around the thought that pitchers are somehow finishing their season over used, or injured.  If they are not injured, or they weren't abused, then I don't see the benefit of rest of more than 3-4 weeks max.  Additionally, I see substantial benefit from utilizing the off season to work on areas that are difficult, at best to accomplish "in season", or one short month prior to season.

 

Also, could there be a risk that is inherent to shutting down for months at a time?  Ligaments, tendons, muscles suffering atrophy, and then injuring them with a resuming of activity (throwing)?   I understand injuries as a result of repetitive actions, however assuming the pitcher is not injured, I just don't get the benefit.  I do see the benefit of working in the off season.  

And what background does this pitching coach have? If it's not a kinesiology or anatomy degree, then I'd be concerned with it carrying much weight...

 

http://www.ericcressey.com/bas...-throwing-programs-1

http://www.ericcressey.com/bas...-throwing-programs-2

 

 

Since you asked, here are a few that advocate not taking off, unless injured or over used (albeit they don't hold medical, or scientific degrees):

 

Tom House, Dick Mills, Kyle Boddy, Ron Wolforth, Tom House, Alan Jaeger Brent Pourciau (all make a living instructing pitchers, and generally well studied).

 

All above advocate off season throwing programs.

 

I keep hearing about medical (kinesiology, anatomy, MD, etc.) as reasons to take off.  What scientific, or medical evidence do they have that not taking off results in injuries, for an otherwise healthy, not abused pitcher?  I certainly don't know it all, so if anyone can point to credible scientific evidence that throwing in the off season by healthy pitchers results in injuries, then I'd love to learn from it.  I agree that repetitive use injuries exist, and occur, however I am saying if a pitcher is healthy, how can a well thought out, interval training program be a detriment, or cause injury.  Conversely, could taking off for extended periods of time potentially result in atrophy to ligaments, tendons, muscles, and the resuming of throwing put pitchers (baseball players) at risk for injury due to lack of strength, or conditioning of the arm?

 

 

BTW -- looked at the Cressey links, and don't see any evidence, other than opinion that rest is required.  Also, Cressey is a big Wolforth contributor, which is ironic, since Wolforth makes a living working with pitchers year round.  

 

Don't want to flame out this thread, and I certainly respect all opinions, and truly believe that blanket (shut it down, or keep throwing) statements don't apply.  For some they may benefit from shutting down, while others would not be in professional baseball had they shut it down, since that is when they discovered how to correct mechanical flaws, or picked up a second, or third pitch that made the difference.

 

redbird 5 - I think potentially (likely) both philosophies apply.

 

I know this site is HS baseball...but with a son that plays multiple sports; I can unequivocally say his athletic development has been way more important and obvious than throwing 10 or 11 moths could have ever done for him.

We went and played football August 1st since he was 8; and now as a high school freshman do the same thing. Play basketball and he ran track...

Now at 15, he gets it's time to forget about basketball and track... and we have a great schedule of baseball from Thanksgiving thru July...Football August thru Halloween.

Has been incredible for his athletic development to this point.

I can see how we will have to start going to a few fall showcases on weekends to get recruited... and will have to keep his arm in shape for another month or so going forward.

 

Rest is always good - and that can mean days off or months off

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23016115

 

Fleisig and Andrews from the American Sports Medicine Institute. Two big names in sports medicine, especially in baseball.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21098816

 

Another Fleisig and Andrews once again.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20142288

 

Krajnik S, Fogarty KJ, Yard EE, Comstock RD.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23015915

 

Parks and Ray. From the Andrews Sports Medicine and Orthopedic Center

I think pitchout31 is likely correct, some players could benefit from months off, while others could benefit from just a few weeks off.  

 

Thanks for the links...looked at each of them.  One study was for prepubescent 9-14 year olds), one for pitchers who threw more than 100 innings, and the other was for over use.  I agree in those instances since 9-14 year olds don't have fully closed growth plates, and the other two were based on over use.

 

 

All I can say is you go ahead and shutdown this fall and winter because I guarantee come Spring there will be players who have not and you will lose your job.  Bum, Jr. gained 9 MPH between his sophomore and junior year by continuing to throw.  Those that say this would have happened anyway defy logic.

Good thoughts from Mike Reinold this morning. Timely post..

 

http://www.mikereinold.com/201...rowing-programs.html

Dr. Wiemi Douoguih, Medical Director for the Washington Nationals and Director of Sports Medicine for MedStar Washington Hospital Center's Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, recommends all players take 8 weeks off from throwing.

Young Baseball / Football players do not throw typically anymore after July 31.

So we start with long toss mid November with some conditioning / light hitting; and progressively work indoors thru Dec and Jan so we are ready to come out of the gate strongly February 1.

Lots of very detrimental injuries happen in Feb/March if you arent ready.

I very strongly feel my son has greatly benefitted from baseball December thru July, putting the ball down about Aug. 1 and playing football has been the best thing in the world for his baseball. Being only a freshman in HS this year, we still have that luxury for a bit longer...

 

My main reason why...a Pitcher throws roughly 80+ stressful throws per week.  A position player usually doesn't throw that much in a week.  Common sense tells me that doing that week in and week out from February-October requires rest.  I don't feel that position players need it due to their lack of accumulation of stressful throws.

 

During the pitcher's shut down time (let's just say 8 weeks), they are strengthening their arms...just not throwing.  They are working on the muscles around the shoulder (scap, etc.) to keep the arm healthy and stable. So, I wouldn't say they aren't working on velocity.  When do they work on mechanics and other pitches?  Throughout the year...in bullpen sessions...when playing catch.  The true answer is constantly.  Ideally, they will spend January getting back into throwing shape and long tossing, in addition to continued weight lifting.  They should long toss all year, IMO.  But, again, this depends on each player's workload throughout the season.  I've had some pitchers long toss after taking only 4 weeks off.  I don't think there is a cookie cutter response for everyone.

 

I don't see how ligaments, tendons and muscles would atrophy over an 8 week period when they are lifting and stretching regularly during that time.  Even without the lifting or stretching, the atrophy would be minimal to non-existent in a healthy HS player.

 

I do not know that rest is "not accumulated after 3-4 weeks".  I've never heard it before and would love to see that validated somewhere besides 1 guys opinion.

 

Again, this is what we do with what I consider "high level players".  As the many posts above contain information and links from "experts", you can see there are many opinions on the subject.  

Bum...that was a pretty tough lead in sentence.  Did Bum Jr only throw or did he also do his band work, stretch, etc.?  Would venture to say by reading your other posts he did his due diligence across the board which contributed to the gain.  Our son has tendinitis in his throwing elbow so he shuts it down for November/December.  During this time he swims, works on core strength (which is also important to gaining velocity), focuses on refining his plate mechanics, and his defensive footwork. There are many/many aspects to the game which can a player can focus on during the offseason and it all boils down to the situation they face.

I'm assuming you are referring to pitchers only?  Also at smaller schools there is less chance of losing your job when the roster size is small to begin with. 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I would prefer my son coming to the start of baseball season with his arm in shape.  Time will tell if long tossing in December and January will do this but right now football takes precedent.  

 

I will predict that my son will be throwing harder this year because of the weight training and conditioning in football.  

Our school didn't throw bullpen but they did do some long-toss and other exercises to for strength.

This is such an interesting dilemma with so many opinions.  I took all those opinions, processed them and working with his pitching coach, landed with this approach for my 2015 RHP. 

 

1.  Shut down from throwing from 10/14 (Fort Myers) to Dec 1.  During this time he has been doing conditioning, band work and yoga 4-5 times a week.

2.  Beginning Dec 1 he will begin Jamie Evans' 10 week weighted ball program combined with long toss 3 days a week.  Will continue with conditioning, bands and yoga as well.

3.  Bullpens 2 days a week beginning late January to prep for a mid February start to the high school season.

4.  Free time will be spent studying.

 

This off-season is all about building velocity.  He sits 82-84 with plus off speed but D1s that are interested in him are waiting for a jump in the velo. 

 

Hope it works!

Reading through this post it appears to me it really depends on the players goals and what condition their arm is in right now.   Great read as my son is making these choices right now.  A little different for him because he did not pitch much this fall due to injury.  Now that he is recovered fully he has set his own goals and is using the offseason to go after them.

 

1. Goal:  Increase Velo by 5 - 7MPH (Off mound and from IF position)

      Steps:  1. Work on Mechanics   2. Throw   3.  Work on Body/arm health condition strength etc...  

 

He is considering doing weighted balls after he feels he has his mechanics where they need to be.

 

   I asked him if he wanted to take a longer rest this offseason and pick up after Christmas.  He said no, that taking that amount of time off would put him way behind and he was afraid he would injure himself again trying to push to hard to catch up.  Doing a little bit over a long period of time instead of craming it in at the end makes sense to him.  I doubt that was an original thought by him but sounds like sound advise from one of his coaches.

 

 

 

Depending on the program, weighted balls and mechanics are not dependent upon each other.

       
 
     I'm very familiar with Jamie Evans VELO program as my 2013 played with the Canes, did the program, and spent a week in Maryland with Jamie weight training and conditioning.  After initial testing and receiving his program, son was told pretty emphatically that he should not engage in any other throwing during the 10 week program. So I'm surprised your son is doing the program and long tossing.  Out of an abundance of caution, I would recommend contacting Jamie for advice on the long tossing before beginning.

How much weights r u guys talking about who mentioned them? My scrawny son throws 90 already and does not do a lot of weights at all. I don't know of any ML pitchers who are muscular like football players. My son does band work, conditions legs, some yoga which helps balance and stretches out muscles in his back, and small weight drills. Diff ideas here I guess. Just can't see not picking up a baseball in any way for 8-12 wks, esp when most pitchers in HS play another defensive position.

I am not sure of the exact program, but I will let him know that, thanks.

Is there any info somewhere on Jamie Evans program? I can't find anything specific.

 

thanks

 

Never mind think I found it. price is crazy!

http://www.nationalpitching.com/products.html

"How much weights r u guys talking about who mentioned them? My scrawny son throws 90 already and does not do a lot of weights at all."

 

The harder a pitcher throws, the more important it becomes to have the assistance of a professionally guided training program to build the support system that helps stave off injuries.  90+ guys are subject to physical stressors that the 75 mph pitcher will never have to deal with. 

 

If you're in the Richmond area, the best thing you could ever do for your son would be to set him up with Bob Blanton.

So Almost 500 bucks for a weighted ball routine?  There is one posted on these boards for free.  I see it says personal workout? Do they bring you in and film you? If not how could they give a personal workout without seeing you?

 

The post is titled:     Ten Week Weighted Ball Program

Has a study/program listed for free...

 

That said I paid for my son to attend a camp called invincible boot camp here in VA.  They taught him all the vocabulary, he has a notebook full of notes.  They filmed him and gave him specific drills to improve him.  In addition they covered the mental side of it all or how to train yourself to have the intent to throw hard etc.. etc.. it was two days of awesome and that cost about the same.  Not to mention I can follow up with these guys for refreshers when he needs it.  I would not pay 500 bucks for some DVDs off the web no way. 

 

 

First of all, the market sets the price (demand).  Having said that, I think you are mischaracterizing what Evans is offering. Just like if I were to say, "I wouldn't pay $500 for 2 days of English lessons and someone telling me to mentally think throw hard", would most likely be a mischaracterization of the boot camp your son attended.
I don't intend to be his spokesman, but the program was developed with arm care in mind and increased velocity was a by-product.  What can't be argued are results.  He has recently been hired by the Toronto Blue Jays to work with their pitchers after having success with Toronto pitchers Steve Delabar and Brett Cecil. Cecil increased his velocity from 88 to 93 after the program. Delabar's story is more incredible.  The list of amateur players that did the program is also long with similar results.

But ultimately it's personal preference on how you spend your money, for me the long list of success stories was a driver in the decision making process.

As a side note, Go Dawgs son is now sitting 90-92 and touching 94 in his freshman season at UNC. 

Thats what I was asking.  What more is there to it?  Do you get a video analysis?  How do the make the workout specific for you?  If it is just a book/DVD and some weighted balls?

 

Didn't say his approach was poor or that he does not have a track record that is good. 

If it is a set of DVDs a book and and some weighted balls, I would not spend that amount.  If it is more than that an actual personal evaluation then I probably would.

 

Thanks for the additional information.   Also, wanted to add that if it came off as minimilizing that was not my intent. 

 

 

That is awesome.  That makes me believe Go Dawgs made the right decision for his son.

Thanks Go Dawgs.  My kid is with the Canes too, FWIW.  I talked with Matt Selmer who reps the program for Jamie in the Mid-Atlantic area and he said long toss was fine.  I will circle back and dive deeper with him on that. 

I am starting to learn on this board the Canes stick together

As it should be.

 

The camp I payed for I would say is part of the Ron Wolforth school of thought.  Whats your opinons on him if you have any experience with what he teaches?

1) I don't think it is "EvoCanes sticking together" as much as it is validating the program.  He was 85-86 as a HS junior when he started with us and 90-92 in his freshman fall at a Top 10 program.  I think that kinda speaks for itself.

 

2) Ultimately, the EvoCanes DO stick together.  We consider ourselves family.  To outsiders, you can't really grasp it unless you are a part of it.

I do grasp it and I love it.  I absolutely love it!  My son has been a Brave since he was 12 and we are a part of their family.  Canes teams and coaches always stand out and play the game the right way and I have nothing but the utmost respect.  If it were not for our loyalty to the Braves who have been really great to my son and my family, we would be first in line to tryout for a Canes team.

 

Once again not downing the program.  Before this post I had never even heard his name before.  I am just not a fan of buying the DVD series from any coach.  I would prefer hands on instruction.  I believe Go Dawgs son worked with him in person based on his previous posts.  That is much different, IMO then books/DVDs etc...  I believe there is a misconception I was attacking his specific program.  That is not the case.