How Often Does This Happen?

Sounds like the coach knows they can throw, now he is trying to teach kids how to pitch. Big difference.

Quite honestly though, I don't see many teams at that age doing much other than raring back and throwing it. A couple of the select teams in the area at 12 stress location and changing speed, but it sounds like you have a coach in the know that is concerned with development.

I don't know if your son plays on a high level team, but the coach from your example is coaching them at a high level in my humble opinion. Many high school teams don't recieve that kind of instruction.

My son's previous coach (11U fall league until 13U Spring league) believes that there are many kids who can throw hard, but fewer who learn to pitch. So, he would work with all his pitchers on the importance of location and changing speeds, rather than rely on his pitchers just blowing it by the batters. While the team still won games, and tournaments, the goal was to prepare them for each successive level, and not just winning any particular game. There were times when he would ask 27 to throw to a certain spot, or throw off-speed a certain number of times, without worrying about the outcome of that particular game or inning. Has it paid dividends? His current and previous pitchers are all still good at the 14U level, and several of them should be on their respective Freshman pitching staffs next spring. (At least according to the coaches I have talked with this year.)

High level teams blast the gas unless it is exceptional. Sounds like your coaches understand this and are trying to impart this knowledge on their pitching staff. How much faster does mid 60's look following a 50's change ? As long as they are not asking him to crank CB's I'd stick around and see what results they get. To answer the original question, common in good programs.

I agree that the players should learn that location, change of speed, and movement are all crucial to winning baseball games. At the same time, I hope this coach is not neglecting teaching these players how to strengthen their arm.

Location and off-speed are great, but a good fastball along with that is deadly.

INshocker- You are everywhere on this board! That said, I like what you have to say as well as standing up to the internet hitting gurus. I laugh at those guys. Regarding pitching, I agree. You get a good fastball by throwing it. If you want to throw hard, you have to have intent- let it fly.

One of the kids who played in my program told me something that made sense to me and it happens alot in the minors in professional baseball. They took away his two-seam and his split and told him to pick either a curve or slider. They wanted him to be great with three basic pitches and, if he needed those other pitches later to succeed, they would give it back to him at the AA level.

In closing, pick ONE fastball and throw it 70% at that age. If you are working on too many things, you'll never be good at one. Find a grip for a change-up that works for you and throw that 20% of the time with fastball arm-action. Finally, find a comfortable breaking ball grip and throw that 10% of the time with fastball arm-action.

INshocker amd ncball,

I agree with both of you that a good fastball is crucial. However, there are many 11U-14U pitchers who have great velocity, yet a piped FB is a long-ball to good hitters. They need to learn how to throw a mixture of pitches, and sometimes a coach may need to force the issue. (And Metropop may have hit upon it: the coach may already know that his kids can throw hard. What they may need to learn is to throw "smart".)

If you think there are a lot of 11u-14u kids who can hit a fastball, wait until you see what good college hitters and pro hitters can do to a straight 95 mph fastball. The point is if any hitter knows what is coming, they will hit it hard.

That said, at Wichita State, we would have a fastball-change up week where the pitchers could only throw those two pitches. Believe it or not, they were surprisingly effective because they had to "pitch." They could not just rely on their dirty stuff to get hitters out. If they don't "pitch" they get rocked.

I like your coach's philosophy, I just believe at 11 years old it is more important to develop a good arm than it is to win baseball games. Pitchers are developed as they develop. I doubt any 12 year old (except maybe Danny Almonte haha!) throws anywhere near their potential. They need to continue to "let it go," especially when just playing catch, until their arm is fully developed. You may win a LOT of games when you are in little league, but is winning little league games these players ultimate goals?

As for the "hitting gurus"...I don't want to say a whole lot, but if you over complicate things for most players, it is just going to go right over there head. The acronym KISS is my favorite for hitting. Whenever I tried to over think my swing my dad would just look at me and say "keep it simple stupid." All of these philosophies and things just make hitters, especially young hitters, confused. I believe they need to be able to understand WHY they have certain mechanics..and you can't explain that using most philosophies.

27's dad- Here's my thought. I would rather have a guy throw one fastball great instead of 2-3 different ones. The key is to spot on both sides and change speeds. More is not better and the problem I see at that age is trying to trick guys instead of developing a quality pitch. This is the same simple philosophy used at much higher levels for the sake of development. Even more important for the younger pitchers.

INshocker- Our pitchers throw their A+ fastball located on the hands followed by a change away as our first two pitches for every batter in our fall scrimmages. It teaches them that they can get anybody out if they change speeds and locate. They get one breaking ball an inning just to keep it interesting.

We have a 40 pitch limit in the fall and the guys compete within themselves on who can face the most batters in 40 pitches. It's all about not being afraid to attack the strike zone and pitch to contact.

ncball: I like that style. So many pitchers try to nitpick and end up making mistakes. If they just have confidence in what they throw and believe in it, you can have average "stuff" and get people out..

BTW, if you don't mind me asking where do you coach? At what level?

I run a program called NorCal Baseball. Started it in 1992. It's Middle school to rising seniors (we do it by grade). Our site is norcalbaseball.org. Check out the alumni section. You might recognize some names. Some of those guys made me look like a very smart coach.

I know I have played against NorCal before. Did you ever send teams out to the Junior Olympic tournament in Arizona...I can't think of the exact name of the tournament. If I remember right you guys are one of the more respected programs in Cali?

Are you involved at all in Connie Mack at the 18 year old level. The reason I ask is because I played on the Midland Redskins and it seems like a lot of the "top" 18 year old teams are out east (Midland, East Cobb Yankees, Bayside Yankees, etc.). I am not trying to say those are the only good teams, but all of those teams compete to play in Farmington for the Connie Mack World Series, and they all recruit from all over the country. I was just wondering if Cali has their own world series or what you do for 18 year olds because I know Cali has some great baseball, they just never seem to send any great teams to Farmington (to my knowledge).

ncball,

I have seen 3 levels of pitchers as they have grown up here in Utah.

First, I have watched kids who are bigger and stronger than their peers just "rock and fire" for season after season. Terrific fastball that they can sometimes spot, and sometimes not. Their coaches are more concerned with dominating the opposing line-ups than developing the pitcher.

Fast-forward to this season (14U). Those flamethrowing kids are serving up gappers, homers, and line-shots and getting shelled. They have nothing else to throw. The curves are all in the dirt...the change-up might as well be BP, and there is no break on a breaking ball. Now each of these kids have worked hard at being able to throw...hard. How many of them may become HS pitchers? I'm not sure.

The 2nd group consists of kids who were smaller to begin with, and so they never had superior velocity. However, the coaches started working with them on the curve and the breaking stuff, and their fastball is just good enough to keep hitters off-balance. They are still having success this year. Maybe not as much as their younger years, but they can still go out and win games. Now, how many of them will be HS pitchers...I don't know...we're not there yet.

The last group consists of the kids who could flat fire the fastball, and whose coaches started working with them early on "location, location, location." They then added off-speed pitches to their arsenals, all the while continuing to place a priority on the pitchers keeping their quality fastballs. These kids are still as dominant this year as in year's past. They still have great fastballs...and better still they can locate them...yet hitters can't sit on #1 because they have a good change-up, or curve, or breaking ball. These are the kids that the HS coaches are drooling over. These are also the 14U pitchers that have HS coaches visiting their games, and asking them to play summer leagues with their teams.

I'm not advocating a kid having 5-6 mediocre pitches at the expense of developing 2-3 great pitches. I am saying that even 12-yr-olds need an off-speed pitch. (Preferably a change-up. I'm not big on younger kids throwing curve-balls.) They need to be able to spot those pitches for strikes, just like the fastball. And, they need to have confidence that they can throw off-speed when they need off-speed. In my albeit limited experience, that seems to take more than one winter session, spring league, or fall league for that to occur. And, it may mean they throw more than 2-3 types of pitches while they learn what works for them and what doesn't.

Does it seem that we're saying similar things...just saying them differently? .

We have been to that tournament every year. We've won 2 of the last 3 and came in second the other time. We usually make it to the final four. Most importantly, we've averaged 20+ guys a year getting D1 scholarships (about 90%).

Regarding Connie Mack, the teams you mention do load up on guys all over the place. You played for the most storied program in the country regarding history.

The California players have great competition here so they don't go away to play as much. The challenge is that the talent is really diluted as there are so many teams. Our highest level is our junior (to be senior) team. We feel like we have done our job for our guys by their senior year. They have grinded it out for the previous 2-3 years and this is the last summer they will ever have that is their own. Our thought is that they should go and play in a college wood bat league or stay home and go on a senior trip while staying sharp for college in the fall.

27- I think we are on the same page. Do you know Bob Keyes?

27: I believe we are on the same page. Believe me, I know the importance of location and changing speeds. I just wanted to make sure your players still realize they NEED a good fastball. They need to continually be strengthening their arm through long-toss. Their bullpen's should be working on location, change-ups, etc. My whole point was to make sure you don't forget about arm strength.

NC: I thought I remembered your team being there. If I remember right, you were the top team the year I was there (2001 maybe?). I understand your view for your seniors to rest, or have time to their selves.

I would love, however, to see you put together a team like the Connie Mack teams do. I do understand how all the Cali kids are spread out, but if you could get the best all on one team, that would be a show. I would love to have NorCal playing in that Connie Mack tournament with Midland and East Cobb. There would have been some serious talent there.

Midland was a great experience for me. The year I played (2003) Cameron Maybin was 16. The kid was unbelievable. I have to admit I was very lucky to have the opportunity to have played there.

INshocker,

The coach would agree with you...to a point. Developing his players was/is his first priority. His goal is to have as many of his players as possible play HS ball, and hopefully beyond.

Yet, can't a program be both developmental and still have a winning record? I have witnessed teams from academies and "development programs" that enter tournaments and leagues and get crushed. Their players may be learning and growing, but their egos sure get roughed-up along the way. And, some of those programs cost a great deal of money to watch your boys lose virtually every game.

And, I have seen teams that are focused solely on winning as many $6 trophies as they can win. The coaches have great egos, the pitchers are blown up at young ages, and the teams seem to fall apart constantly.

The programs I respect are the ones that try to balance building decent young men and improving their baseball skills with winning. Those are the programs that never seem to need to recruit (there's always a "waiting list"), their players go on to better things (whether in baseball or in life), and the young men enjoy the experience. Isn't that what the game is all about?

Inshocker,

I was answering the first post when you put up the 2nd one.

Yes, I believe we are on the same page. That third group is the one I feel has the best opportunity in HS and, hopefully, beyond. (JMHO)

27: The best programs are as you describe. They are able to balance the development with the winning. I was in no way questioning your coach or his philosophies. My only concern was making sure you coach wasn't more about winning and less about developing their arms. That is all. I am glad your coach realizes the importance of both.

I was very lucky, as I was just talking about with NC, to have played on some of the best programs in the country. I understand the importance of being able to develop players and still be able to win.

27 and INshocker. I've always found that if you do a great job of development, the by-product of that is winning. It's all a journey and a series of lessons being learned.

ncball,

Yes, I've had the pleasure of meeting Bob Keyes. 27's previous coach thinks very highly of Bob, and I think very highly of his academy's level of instruction. 27 took pitching lessons there with Tahylor Law (formwer AAA pitcher). That was our first introduction to the academy, and it was a favorable one.

This year, 27 has made one of the 14U teams that the UBA is sending to the Arizona Summer Classic in July. The coaches for both teams have solid coaching creds, having coached either HS or college or both, and the players are some of the best from our area. However, Bob was very honest about the tournament, the level of competition that we should expect, and how well he felt the boys may do this year. His honesty was refreshing...and his academy's regular teams are doing pretty well this year.

Have you known him long?

INshocker,

I can only imagine how rewarding it must be to have played with such a great program. One of my hopes is that 27 will eventually have similar opportunities.

I appreciate the concern you've shown. Your concern, and knowledge about good programs (as well as those of so many posters here at HSBBW) is why I'm so glad I found this website.

27- I've known Bob a long time. He is one of the best people I've ever met in baseball. I always look forward to seeing him. He is truly a baseball icon in Utah.

ncball,

Hopefully, 27's involvement with the academy this year will allow me to get to know him better.

I’ve been off for a bit… interesting responses and discussions.

To Metropop: He is playing travel ball for a team that will do 60-65 games between now and Cooperstown at the end of August. We travel a long way just to get to our home games. Of the 150 or so 12U teams in our region, we would probably rank in the top five – possibly the top one.

He throws a real 65 and if just left to his 4-seam, could readily alter between the catchers left knee and right knee. If he were left to use this pitch alone, I don’t think it would be possible for him to walk a batter anymore – the guy would either have to hit it or strike out. One thing that I am not too keen on, is that they want to “slow down” his change up. His change up has been effective so far, causing a ton of foul balls/weak grounders. It has been rare when he cannot get it into the strike zone. It doesnt produce that many wiff's though and I think that;s why they want it slower yet again. Personally, I like it because there is no change in his delivery – it is all grip (and it’s about a 5 mph difference). In the long run, I think this is a better practice than to slow the arm down. If I am wrong here say so. I would liken this to throwing a kiddie curve-ball or a knuckle ball. What value is this to long term development?

When we were at Bucky Dent’s in Florida back in March, one of the senior staff did the pitching and he really encouraged the kids to experiment (grips, finger-pressure, etc.). Right now he is getting a lot of innings and a lot of opportunity to do this. As he is getting more call for the 2-seam and the cutter, he can see the movement himself and adjust.

The team seems to win regardless – as our league play seems to have differing levels of competition. If we’re playing a tough team – the leave in a shut-down defense.

Sounds like the coach knows what he is doing. Kids develop at different ages. At your sons age, the bigger kids may be able to blow away a hitter based simply on the fact that they are physically more mature.

I feel he is doing the right thing by teaching your son to be a pitcher as opposed to a "thrower" He won't have much success when he gets older with a straight-80+ FB.. Good hitters will tee off on these types.

I agree ncball, 100%.

There are some great coaches teaching the game the right way even down in my league, 9-U. Problem is that some coaches lose focus on winning now and will burn 1 or 2 arms over and over because they throw hard, which is the hardest to hit for the little guys. I really don't know how long pitch counts or innings pitched has been enforced outside of Little League sanctioned events, but I am glad they exist or some kids would be asked to throw until their arms fall off.

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
...I've always found that if you do a great job of development, the by-product of that is winning. It's all a journey and a series of lessons being learned.

I have been saying this for a while, Rob, and I totally agree.

As a coach for a team that plays AAA/ Major I would like to put my input in.

You mentioned this was a league game and that is the difference. When we play leage games we work on things and don't really care if we win or not. We aren't going to try and lose but our main focus isn't winning those games.

Our pitching coach has been known to call nothing but changeups for a pitcher just so he can focus on that pitch. He teaches and preaches to the kids, not to throw strikes but to throw to the mit. Hit the mit and you can pitch. It is fine and dandy to throw hard but it doesn't do any good ift he other guys take it over the fence every time.

We do the same thing at the plate. We had a game this year where every batter had to bunt. Not matter the count, no matter the outs, no matter where the base runners were. We focused on bunting that game. We never swung the bat, we bunted. We expect all of our kids to know how to bunt. It is a league game and we look at it as developmental.
btw, we won that game 4-2.

OA5II:

I am going to have to disagree with that philosophy. I believe development for hitters happen in practice and after practice. Teaching kids to bunt right happens in practice. You attempt to bunt in games, but you still need to do it in bunting situations; not to just practice bunting.

IMO, you don't work on pitches that you are not comfortable with during a game. You get comfortable with that stuff on the side; not when hitters are up there. I agree you should always go for location. Again, throwing a change-up in the right situations is fine, just throwing it pitch after pitch to practice it is not what game settings are for.

There is something to be said about competitiveness as well, and if you teach your players that the games, especially league games, are all about development and not about winning, they will lack that fire it takes to win, IMO.

I believe games are a tool to tell you where you stand on your skills and what you need to work on in practice.

I am going to have to disagree with you. Anyone can bunt a ball in practice or in a cage. It is very different when you have an opposing pitcher and the 2 corner pinching in.

Our team is a true small ball team and we use the bunt as a weapon on a regular basis and this is how we have developed it.

Same goes with pitching. I have seen alot of pitchers that are workout warriors but can't pitch in a game. Just b/c you can throw in a cage or on a mound w/ no batter doesn't mean you know how to pitch. You have to be able to pitch to a live batter that is trying to hit off of you.

I promise you the kids still have the fire to win. This is the first year we didn't win our league b/c the kids still want to win.

OA5II: I believe the kids that get it done are gamers. There is something that is said about their mental state when trying to bunt in pressure situations. I believe 95% of the time, it is not their skill that is not there, it is not wanting to screw up. Having them bunt in non-pressure game situations is not the same as doing it when the pressure is on. Bunting is more of a mentality than a skill.

I know guys in college that could bunt, but when the game was on the line, they choke; they could bunt in games and off pitchers, just not when we actually needed it.

I believe in practice situations, you need to put them in pressure situations; not using precious game at-bats when they need to be swinging the bat. IMO,swinging the bat well will win game more than bunting. You need people on base to bunt.

It happens frequently. I agree with most that coaches need to teach young players HOW to pitch and not focus on velocity but for a very different reason ---- primarily because velocity for the most part is God given and cannot be taught. Good coaches teach young pitchers HOW to pitch but the fastball remains a VERY important pitch in a pitcher's arsenal because his other pitches rely on the fastball for their effectiveness. As pitchers and hitters become more advanced this becomes more evident. Different pitches compliment each other and the fastball normally sets the "tempo" while other pitches disrupt that tempo.

Most young pitchers don't need to be told to "throw hard". My son was being scouted in a high school game and his velocity which was normally in the mid to low 90"s was below 90mph most of this particular game. Between innings I mentioned to him that he might want to really "reach back" on a few pitches to light up the scouts' radar guns. His reply was --- "I do that on every pitch." So much for my teaching velocity.
Fungo

To be clear, he has enough velocity for a 12YO. He is on a constant rise right now and I suspect he will have a double digit year. He throws pretty much ten months of the year.

He fits the profile of the early developer with lots of size (5’7”/155 pounds). As many folks here have commented about how the early developers get passed by later on by the late-bloomers who worked hard, we have taken the approach to work hard at things as the early developer for a longer sustained period of time. The idea being that when the late-bloomer starts developing as a pitcher, my son has been throwing good quality pitches for a longer period of time (can hit the wings off a fly with three or four pitches at 15U is the objective).

For example, if he is pitching from 60’6” as a 12U (we play in a 13U loop as well), he will have one to two years advance on many of his contemporaries. That could be as much as double the time on the hill as some of his contemporaries by 16U. Further, not all of the 12U’s on our pitching staff can go from 60’6” with any sustained control (only two are reliable). He will have a lion’s share of the innings from the longer distance.

The pitching coach asked me about whether to start him in games or not in a tournament a couple of weeks back. I suggested they hold him back to provide relief, because of his control and reliability in tough situations. Sure enough, one-out and bases loaded in the third, he was called in and pulled through, despite a barrage of foul balls. You cant duplicate that experience indoors or at practise.

On the way home in the car, he commented “Dad, you know it’s different when you’re the ace. You’re expected to do well on every pitch and to get us in (back to the bench fast). It’s not like going in and everyone knows you’re going to walk a bunch of guys. You have to perform.” I didnt correct him - he is one of the two aces.

It is interesting to hear that a guy from the south (Texas) is doing the same thing with his pitchers (and hitters). Although we are from the north, our pitching coach is from the south.

We will continue healthy arm practises and throw but, the controllable part of development I believe is the experience gained from throwing pitches under real conditions.

First things first- Do not PITCH 10 months a year. Play 12 months a year if you want. That said, pitchers need time off- period. I've been doing this for a long time at a very high level for amateur baseball and the biggest mistake out there is playing year-around. I've seen WAY too many guys break down. I want my guys to play other sports like football, s****r, and basketball. They need a mental break and they need to shut down.

Secondly, practice at game speed. The reason guys don't get bunts down and teams panic on bunt defense is that most teams it's practiced at half speed. Same for BP. Guys need to learn to be "on-time" at game speed while hitting. Set up drills to reflect "on-time" hitting.

Finally, the biggest problem I see is an absolute contrast to what most of you are talking about. I see too many guys coaching their pitchers to be smooth and just "get it over". You have to try to throw hard with intent in order to throw hard. Yes, you need to learn how to pitch. That said, you have to let 'er fly.

I was careful to use the word throw. He doesnt actually start to pitch at all until sometime in February.

He plays Rep basketball and participates in indoor baseball workouts in a dome on weekends in the fall. It is the longer throwing that the dome allows that helps the arm. It's a relatively low-pressure event. There is another indoor session he goes to as well that is a lot of fun and keeps the arm going.

I agree with your comments. Our team has a number of good fastball hitters and I believe largely because we have two coaches who can throw BP at 65-70. Watching an opponent's team warm up last weekend, one of their parents who I am acquanted with commented on the difference between the two batting practises - which corresponded quite readily to the performance on the field.

NCBALL: I think you said it perfectly when you said "You have to try to throw hard with intent in order to throw hard. Yes, you need to learn how to pitch. That said, you have to let 'er fly." I think you have to learn to throw hard and throw with command. If you don't, you will never be successful at any level.

My thoughts on hitting at game speed: I agree with this to a certain extent. I believe you need to work on mechanics and making your swing as consistent as possible before even worrying about b.p. A lot of pro hitters I have worked with, and when I was a player, I tried to get my swing as consistent as possible off of the tee and front toss. I feel if my swing was right, I could hit anybody at anytime. I feel there are times when players need to face consistent, hard BP because this allows their reaction time in the game to be quicker and allows them to relax more. However, without a consistent swing, it doesn't really matter.

On the original question, my sons coach has him throw nothing but changeups during league games. They want him to work on his grips. Make the ball break in or away, take a little off for more movement and add a little for less. They are trying to teach him to pitch and locate his off speed. He throws 98% fastballs in tournaments, but they work on his change ups all of the time. They know he will need a great change at some time. They work on his fastball in the bull pen. He is 13U.

I still don't like the fact that the game is being used to throw nothing but change-ups. I feel that is what playing catch and throwing bullpens is for. You have to work off of your fastball in game situations. Games, IMO, are meant to see where you stand and what weaknesses you have. If you solely work on things during games, you never find out what your weaknesses are.

INS,
There is a big difference between league play and tournaments. We use league play to work on game situation stuff. I think my son works off of the reputation of his fastball in league play. His weakness is a lack of control on his off speed. That is well known.

We always bunt more, work on different defenses, allow players to play their secondary positions. Look for off speed to hit oppo. That kind of thing.