The author is a highly regarded analytics writer well connected to the scouting world
https://www.bostonglobe.com/20...ll-scouting-reports/
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Interesting article. Part of the problem is there is simply a low level of interest in baseball by the black community. I ran a local program for our LL for a few years that provided opportunity to the black community in our boundary. It was fully funded by a former MLB player. It started out with 7 or 8 teams about 12 years ago. They ranged from tee ball up to seniors. Now we can’t get enough kids to form a team in any age division.
I think the reason for the early success was the collapse of a very successful football program within the community. Within the past few years a couple new football and basketball programs have started up.
I think the inflection point for baseball came in the 60's. At that point baseball had dozens of top flight black players including Aaron, Mays Gibson etc. In the 60's college football and basketball desegregated and opened up more opportunities for blacks to go to college. The NFL and NBA also started to pay better and rise in popularity.
By 1980's Bird, Johnson and Jordan had cemented the NBA as the coolest place to be and the NFL soared past everything in the entertainment world. Baseball never changed and slid in popularity among blacks. Stir in cost and lack of availability of playing fields and you have what you have now after 30/40 years.
I have said repeatedly on this board if 25-50 blacks that either play or nearly make the NFL and NBA had chosen baseball instead the game would be far more athletic and dynamic. Just 2 or 3 players per team. Imagine Lamar Jackson playing center for the Yanks or Odell Beckam hoisting the ball over the Monster in Fenway. How about Tyreek Hill scoring from 1st on a double at Wrigley in about 6 seconds. Instead you have Pete Alonso (The Polar Bear) hitting fly balls or striking out.
Baseballs efforts in this area just haven't been good enough to crack the cultural trend away from the sport. If Latin players had not filled in the gap the game long ago would have been left behind. As it is the sport is on borrowed time. I am 60 and believe when people my age die - so will a big chunk of the sports support. What they are doing right now might speed it along.
It is very expensive to play baseball at a high level against top competition. I've seen kids drop out of baseball because their families just couldn't keep up with the cost and they were too talented for the local Little League. In the 70s and 80s baseball was local and cheap. There was no WWBA or Jupiter, cross-country travel and such. Our HS coach or Legion coach were the hitting and pitching coaches. I honestly don't know how colleges and pro scouts found kids but somehow they did.
This concept of makeup always makes me laugh. One time it came back to me that a scout had described my son as having "outstanding makeup". The guy had spent less than 10 seconds with him. However he was a drinking buddy of my brother's when they played together on the Cape 30 years prior.
“[Black players] may come from places where they don’t get the opportunity to play year-round with the expensive travel ball teams and things of that nature where there are guys polishing their skills year-round, as well as maybe they’re spending time playing other sports and it doesn’t allow them to be as polished at baseball.”
This is the proof I needed to see that the article was written to pander to the hot topics in the news right now. We're now going to assume that black kids can't polish baseball skills because they're too busy playing multiple sports - maybe?
Maybe systemic racism is real in baseball, maybe it isn't. But at the very least, this is extremely lazy journalism that makes the same assumptions it attempts to call out in the article. The author maybe great at his job and be very well connected but he is pulling thoughts out of his ass and using nice political words to hide the fact that he doesn't know what he's talking about. This was a bad article, something he thought would be a good idea given the political climate, and does the exact thing he takes issue with.
The author has no issue pointing out all the injustices in baseball. I assume he'll be going around the worst neighborhoods in his area and start recruiting elementary aged kids. Same goes for the AL/NL executives referenced in the article.
Funny story.... so there was a kid from the black baseball program that threw GAS. When his mechanics clicked it was a beautiful thing, for a 10 year old. He was asking some of the travel kids about being on the team so I talked to his mom and she agreed to let him do it. I basically adopted him during baseball season for 3 years. So in his first game all the kids have their various trendy walk up songs. Then this kid’s song comes on and it’s Watch Me Whip. I look over and all the kids in the dugout were dancing and having a good time. Normally I’d want them focused, but they were enjoying the moment. I looked over and the other team was dancing too.
In this game the ump was black. He’d been calling balks all day. So the black kid on my team finally takes the mound and ended up balking. Ump calls time and goes to the mound to give him a warning. His grandma absolutely lost it on the ump and told him he better treat her boy the same as all the white boys and he didn’t need special treatment.
He ended up dominating some really good youth teams the next few years. In our final LL all star game we had a chance to beat the team that won states. The kid walked up to me before the game and told me his arm was sore but he could still pitch. We ended up losing by a run. That kid hit a bomb for us and played 1b.
He’ll be a freshman next year and the local high schools are all fighting it out to get him to enroll
I think baseball just has a few things that make it less attractive than basketball or football:
-very expensive with private lessons, equipment and travel teams
-less scholarships in college than basketball or football
-several years of minor league play for a chump change before you get to the show
- if you make the show the pay is not great for the first 3-4 years
If you are good for 6+ years baseball is great but at this point you are almost 10 years in pro ball (3-4 years in minors and then another 6 years until you are a free agent).
Not sure how much this economical aspect plays a role but I could see it affecting minorities.
Btw I think it is quite interesting that positions seem to have racial stereotypes.
Most african american stars tend to be outfielders while infielders are very often Latin players. Many pitchers, catchers and first basemen tend to be white or latino but rarely black Americans. Generally almost no pitchers or catchers are african Americans (among better pitchers I only recall stroman, archer and cc).
Jeebus.
Eddie Murray 1B - HOF
Lee May 1B - 18 years MLB, 354 HR
Willie Stargell 1B - HOF
Frank Thomas 1B - HOF, 521 HR. The Big Hurt!
Cecil Cooper 1B - 17 years MLB, 5 time AS - one of the most underrated players ever.
Cecil Fielder 1b - 13 years MLB, 3 time AS
Prince Fielder 1b - 12 years MLB, 6 time AS
Joe Morgan 2b - HOF
Dwight Gooden, David Price, BOB EFFING GIBSON!!!!
Ozzie Smith SS - HOF !!!!!
Most of them are over 50 now.
Last year 2 out of the top30 war pitchers were African American ( stroman, Flaherty), 1 of the top 20 first basemen (bell) and none of the top30 catchers were african American. Of course there were black Latinos but almost no African US Americans.
@Dominik85 posted:Most of them are over 50 now.
Last year 2 out of the top30 war pitchers were African American ( stroman, Flaherty), 1 of the top 20 first basemen (bell) and none of the top30 catchers were african American. Of course there were black Latinos but almost no African US Americans.
Jack Flaherty?
That story was just to fire people up while there is nothing of real value to write about. I guess he couldn't find any athletic stores that got looted so he went for the safe deadline beater.
@Smitty28 posted:Jack Flaherty?
Didn't know that either but apparently he is partially African American. A news outlet said " Flaherty is one of many white mlb players siding with BLM" and Flaherty corrected them saying he is partially African American so I guess there is no reason to doubt that.
I read the article, and I believe this can be true for any profession and sport. I would never classify myself as somebody who is woke, but I have seen enough of this stuff (and read credible scientific studies) in different situations to say that is does happen regularly, and we still have a long way to go as a society.
yea because describing a super athlete with limited training and lacking the fine tuning but has all the talent in the world is racist if he is black...got it.
@Viking0 posted:I read the article, and I believe this can be true for any profession and sport. I would never classify myself as somebody who is woke, but I have seen enough of this stuff (and read credible scientific studies) in different situations to say that is does happen regularly, and we still have a long way to go as a society.
Are you referring to how the scouts describe black players or the access to private instructions, travel teams, etc?
Thanks for the link RJM--good article.
Some of the hostility in the comments surprises me. You want more data? The author cites some internal work by MLB clubs; it's not surprising that teams haven't opened up their scouting reports for academic study. And the author is a sports reporter, not a business school professor. The effects of implicit bias are well documented in hiring and promotion practices in the corporate world. Why would we expect baseball to be immune? (And "implicit" means someone isn't intentionally trying to disadvantage anyone based on their race, but that humans' thinking almost inevitably is effected by stereotypes and cognitive shortcuts. The explosive growth in "behavioral economics" rests on this fact.)
Think back to "Moneyball." One of the inefficiencies the As exploited was scouts' tendencies to make generalizations based on how a player looked, etc. The trend toward analytics ought to help correct some of those errors. And societal progress on race issues surely helps, too. (We rarely hear any talk these days about whether a black player can be an NFL QB, for instance). But I think there is still a lot of progress to be made on this front.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or flame emotions... but to flip the coin...play along....where is the article and tweets and cry for more whites to play Basketball? Isn't that a black dominated sport? Yes there are some greats, but if you're counting numbers and races.....
Playing the narrative of we need more "race X" in sport "Y"....
What about Track? Where are the whites in that? (Anatomically the higher calf muscle of the black athlete provides for more force over the knee and ankle joint making them anatomically faster).
Basketball makes sense for higher participation rates. Basketball is also easier to play and access than baseball with fewer people, space, and resources. All parts of town can easily have a basketball court or multiple courts. Gyms, YMCA, etc. Think of the area, equipment, and upkeep needed for baseball vs basketball. You pretty much have to travel to a baseball field, but can walk to basketball. So many locations are easy to grab for pick up game with less players. Easier to play 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4, pick up games with a ball and court. Vs field a team and find a field.
Can't change that and that isn't a "race" thing. It's an availability, space, people, and resources, thing.
Eokerholm, why can't both be true? That is, baseball is more expensive, maybe more accessible for some groups versus other sports and implicit biases play a role.
As for why you don't see more white guys in the NBA: Can you make a serious argument about where systemic bias against white kids would arise? Most coaches, execs and owners are white, for example. So are most scouts, I expect. Is there any reason to assume the racial disparity is because of bias? I can't see one.
On the other hand, in baseball and in other areas of life we can see (and there is some data that documents) systemic issues. Recognizing and trying to address those seems like a worthy goal to me. The devil is the details for sure--and discussions about what steps to take is rapidly going to become contentious. But IMO acknowledging the issue need not be.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Are you referring to how the scouts describe black players or the access to private instructions, travel teams, etc?
Sorry, Chico is better at describing this than me. All I'm saying is that when evaluating a person, their race (and also gender) will come into play in how a person evaluates them. That is why it is important to recognize it, and double check that it doesn't allow you to treat somebody because of it.
For access to private instructions, travel teams, etc., I think there are a ton of factors and there is no simple solution, so I'll just plead ignorance on it.
@Eokerholm posted:I'm not trying to be a jerk or flame emotions... but to flip the coin...play along....where is the article and tweets and cry for more whites to play Basketball? Isn't that a black dominated sport? Yes there are some greats, but if you're counting numbers and races.....
Playing the narrative of we need more "race X" in sport "Y"....
What about Track? Where are the whites in that? (Anatomically the higher calf muscle of the black athlete provides for more force over the knee and ankle joint making them anatomically faster).
Basketball makes sense for higher participation rates. Basketball is also easier to play and access than baseball with fewer people, space, and resources. All parts of town can easily have a basketball court or multiple courts. Gyms, YMCA, etc. Think of the area, equipment, and upkeep needed for baseball vs basketball. You pretty much have to travel to a baseball field, but can walk to basketball. So many locations are easy to grab for pick up game with less players. Easier to play 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4, pick up games with a ball and court. Vs field a team and find a field.
Can't change that and that isn't a "race" thing. It's an availability, space, people, and resources, thing.
How people are judged and what sport they choose to play are two separate discussions. When I read the article I never considered the imbalance of races in sports. The article is about perception of ability.
If you go to Europe the American physical arguments of why certain races play certain sports can’t be validated anymore. There are more white Europeans in the NBA than white Americans.
@old_school posted:yea because describing a super athlete with limited training and lacking the fine tuning but has all the talent in the world is racist if he is black...got it.
Here are a few links. These are literally just pulled from a single Google search—I’m not an expert on this topic and I’m not suggesting these are the best data out there. Again, behavioral economics is founded on the idea that humans use cognitive shortcuts that often are wrong—check out “Thinking Fast and Slow,” by a Nobel prize winner and a best seller a few years ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com...erbacks-get-drafted/
@Chico Escuela posted:Eokerholm, why can't both be true? That is, baseball is more expensive, maybe more accessible for some groups versus other sports and implicit biases play a role.
As for why you don't see more white guys in the NBA: Can you make a serious argument about where systemic bias against white kids would arise? Most coaches, execs and owners are white, for example. So are most scouts, I expect. Is there any reason to assume the racial disparity is because of bias? I can't see one.
On the other hand, in baseball and in other areas of life we can see (and there is some data that documents) systemic issues. Recognizing and trying to address those seems like a worthy goal to me. The devil is the details for sure--and discussions about what steps to take is rapidly going to become contentious. But IMO acknowledging the issue need not be.
When my son was ten he made the Hoop Scoop Magazine top prospects in his age group list for point guards. I was amused. How can anyone legitimately provide an analysis of a 4’8” basketball player? Due to being lightning quick, fast, an excellent ball handler and never intimidated he was one of the best ten year olds in our major metro area. He had the benefit of hanging around his older sister’s basketball practices starting at age three. He could dribble between his legs as soon as the ball fit. He wanted to play basketball for Duke someday. Unfortunately he was doomed to become a 6’2” white guy (it’s a joke ... the 6’2” matters).
I was never sure if my son liked baseball more than basketball. He did admit one day had he grown to be 6’6” he probably would have chosen basketball over baseball. Even my daughter who played college softball said she liked basketball more than softball. She was a 5’10” two guard in high school.
What may have influenced them is they said I was more fun to play for in basketball than baseball/softball. They said I looked like I was having more fun coaching basketball. Baseball and basketball certainly involve different personalities. I was more animated coaching basketball. But they also claimed I steered them towards baseball/softball in terms of next level.
Here’s a different bias. But it’s unconscious bias. Both Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were hard playing, scrappy players with incredible talent. They both worked hard to improve their skills every year. They were challenged to improve by each other and their opposing teams.
But Larry Bird was a blue collar Boston player. Magic was Hollywood, Reverse the situations with the same talent and Bird would have been the fair haired, beach boy basketball player from LA. Magic would have been the blue collar player from Boston. We’re far more affected by our biases than we realize.
Being affected by built in and learned biases doesn’t make one a bad person. They can become a better person by being aware of the biases.
Each year before the Area Code games I made a few changes to "wake up" the establishment. One year I discuss with John Young founder of the RBI program to select a "All Star" team from the Academy. Another year, I invited the National Team from Australia and Mexico. Another year I investigated the Nike Football Camp and invited the football players who had played baseball.
The MLB Scouting Directors and Scouts enjoyed the "creativity".
Bob
I am a black American and two of my children are D1 athletes (plus a NARP as they love to call their older sister...a jr. at Notre Dame). My daughter plays basketball at Northwestern (finished ranked #11 in the country last year and missed the opportunity to be a 3 seed in the NCAA tournament because of COVID...so sad) and she is convinced that one of her high school friends got less looks as a basketball because he is a white point guard. She felt like with the same skill set, he would have been taken more seriously as a D1 recruit (he walked on at Big 10 school) if he were black. On the flip side, my son is a 2021 and this is the first summer where he is not being described as "raw"...he's still getting "athletic", which is obviously not a bad thing, but raw was always interesting to me. He did play basketball through his jr. yr. in HS but played baseball fall/spring/summer since he was 9 or so. We never had a private hitting or pitching or fielding coach for him but he committed to an SEC school last summer so "raw" always struck me as extremely interesting. Having said that, I completely agree that the cost (and comparative lower short term reward) of baseball over other basketball and football is striking and prohibitive, particularly for kids with choices. At the youth level, the better you get at basketball, the less you have to pay. The opposite is true with baseball. Then there is the scholarship issue. If my son had put as much time into basketball as baseball, he would have had several offers of a full ride plus a stipend. But he has always loved baseball and we are in a position to support that. All this to say, I think all issues of race are far more complicated than anyone wants to admit. Implicit bias goes both ways but in most societal instances, it disproportionately impacts people with brown skin in a negative way. AND....I think baseball needs to do some work around the insane cost of being a youth player. All sports really but I feel like travel baseball gets really expensive really young and it's just not neccessary.
Thanks for sharing PTwood. I would say the same is true with baseball though as far as the better you get the less you have to pay. I know several kids (parents) who are actually paid to play on certain 15u teams right now. Another dad whose son was drafted in the second round two years ago told me we should never pay to play baseball. Hah! Easy for him to say. His kid was always a top 5 player in the state.
PT Wood;
During my 6 years of coaching our Santa Rosa Travel team. No player paid. We were regarding one of the best teams in Northern California. Always selected players from any area.
Only rules were "play hard" for all 9 innings and "do not get into any fights that we cannot win".
Later, I created the Area Code games, now 33 years old. Players do not have to pay.
Bob
TerribleBPthrower we are finally there in terms of not paying. We are from Maryland and I think it comes later for position players from further north...plus my son always played up (he had a great coach and a great group of friends) so he was more of a good player but not a great player where he was playing. In that sense he has been a bit of a surprise in the past year or so on the circuit. (Hopefully that's a good reminder to some parents of younger players. They WILL find you.) But the cost of youth baseball and the college scholarship issue remains the same. Even if you don't have to pay for your team and travel, the bats, gloves and lessons, if you choose that, are much more expensive than for basketball (my point of reference...I don't know about football). We spent WAY MORE on my son's youth baseball career than we did on both my daughters' youth basketball careers and one daughter is also playing at an elite level (all BIG 10 and BIG 10 academic---not to brag but to provide context). And I do think that the scouting default for black players is "athletic", "raw," "talented"...which is awesome and very well may be true...and overlooks skill, hard work, intelligence and nuance. My son is huge (6'6" 230 lefty) who runs a 6.7 60 and can hit for power but he is totally a finesse player if you are paying attention. He's not swinging to the fences--he's looking to take a pitch where it comes...gap to gap. After every game, he knows exactly where every pitch went and what he did/should have done with it. We almost never see him described that way. There were two schools in the SEC that appreciated that about him and he committed to one of them. I think it's all very interesting and part of what the original poster was addressing. I'm new to this forum and so happy to be part of the discussion!
And Bob/Consultant...Area Code games are amazing. Thank you so much for your investment in the youth of the game and for your innovation to making it as accessible as possible. Getting there is the trick! LOL
I would say most kids have to pay for travel ball, mine included. And yes, the equipment is super expensive. I guess my example was more anecdotal for the absolute top players. The kids I was referring to even had their “sponsor” buy them all new bats, gloves, and gear. They said they wouldn’t lose a game all summer. 2 tournaments in and they’ve lost twice.
PtWood, thanks for sharing your experience. Your narrative has opened my own eyes up to how I describe players. Thank you.
TerribleBPthrowerThat's just baseball, isn't it?! Most wonderful, humbling game there is!
Thanks for bringing your perspective PTWood. I think at the older ages, the good players will generally play irregardless of background. However, getting to the point is the challenge. Many youth travel teams start up from good old boy networks or people willing to pay money. For football, a kid can start in HS and not pay a dime. Basketball requires kids to work a lot at their craft at a younger age, but as was stated, that is not expensive.
It definitely isn’t cheap. Travel and club fees last summer/fall for camps, planes, car rentals, and hotels was $11,000+. Didn’t count food.But in the end worth it for getting the exposure he got and eventually landing where he did.
Back at this summer with Rast Cobb Astros (MariettA (x2), Hoover, Dallas, Houston, College Station).... but much less with less events and less “chasing”.
Eokerholm I completely agree it is worth it in the end. Not just for where they get but for what they learn along the way. However, it does make it cost prohibitive for many families and for kids who have a choice between baseball and other sports....the kid who "love whatever season it is"...baseball can price itself out of consideration.
Yep and much easier (and cheaper) to walk or ride bikes with your buddies down to a basketball court to play. Baseball is proximity, time, and monetarily restrictive. Someone has to get you to a field or facility until your able to drive, if you’re able to drive and afford that too.
Uphill battle for everyone compared to other sports with more coverage (geographically), availability, and press.
Not sure how you reduce the barrier to entry for participation for all. Facilities are expensive to build and maintain. Travel and time away from work for parents comes at a cost.
@Eokerholm posted:Yep and much easier (and cheaper) to walk or ride bikes with your buddies down to a basketball court to play. Baseball is proximity, time, and monetarily restrictive. Someone has to get you to a field or facility until your able to drive, if you’re able to drive and afford that too.
Uphill battle for everyone compared to other sports with more coverage (geographically), availability, and press.
Not sure how you reduce the barrier to entry for participation for all. Facilities are expensive to build and maintain. Travel and time away from work for parents comes at a cost.
I always tried to draft a few kids from the black community in our league. I didn’t want them ending up with a coach who didn’t care and was only picking them because they were the only kids left. I had to pick them up and drop them off for every practice and game. I enjoyed the rides and hearing about their personal lives. My son was also able to make friends he normally would not have likely been introduced to. I wish more people were aware of some of the things surrounding these kids and the choices they have to make.
So I really don't mean to be difficult buy my question is what is the proper way to describe a 2 sport who athlete, who is obviously physically gifted to the very top of any chart, who has never had a private lesson being scouted and described in the sport that has the finest small motor skills of any game out there?
Why is raw an insult or racist? Why would it not be considered just accurate?
As far as the gap to gap approach not being appreciated, for better or worse in todays game a child with the size you describe is going to be expected to pull and lift the ball, few will care about anything else. It is going to be the same way if he gets serious looks from the next level as well. I have a lefthanded gap to gap hitter with some power who is a couple years older then yours, he isn't the talent you describe but trust me I know what I speak of on this one.