How should we handle this?

quote:

it's his way only

Pitchers have to pitch through pain, its just how it is. If you have an injury thats a different story, but if your just sore suck it up and get the job done. Maybe you remember the Schilling bloody sock incedent. Pitch through being sore but I will say, that if you are injured you will know the difference.

HS pitchers don't pitch through pain unless they aren't worried about still being on the mound at the end of the season. Personally, I don't know many HS pitchers that fit that description.

Pitching when the arm is tired can lead to injury, much less trying to pitch through pain.

Pain is indicative of injury.

bb1,

If your son is throwing low 80s as a freshman lefty, he has a good chance for a great future in baseball. Don't let this coach steal it from him! Read up on pitch counts, arm care for pitchers, etc., and talk with your son about it so that he knows what is healthy and what is not. Distance runners keep running through the pain. HS pitchers should not keep pitching through the pain, if they want to pitch later in that season and future seasons.

Coaches have their ways but absolutely no one is always right. Including a coach, a parent or a player. The best coaches are the ones that can adapt to their team. Not ones that try and fit a square peg into a round hole. Hasn't there ever been a coach who has learned something from his players? This is not the pros and yes there is a difference between pain and just being sore. A 15yr old high school kid does not need to pitch through pain. Maybe this is why there are more and more TJ surgeries at younger and younger ages.
Schilling hasn't been the same since.

Mn-mom
Thank you very much for the voice of reason. I will also do as you suggest. Any suggestions on where to get good info on pitch counts and things?

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
HS pitching coach told the kids today that their arms would be falling off, elbows and shoulders hurting but they needed to work through it. What do you do? Not throw full speed? Work mostly on mechanics? My son doesn't need an injured arm because the coach thinks you need to work through it. He is also of the mind set that it's his way only. This kid is a lefty, throws low 80's as a freshman and has been working with an instructor for 3yrs. I can see this becoming a serious issue when you mess with arms.

Sound advice from others here is another perspective...

-First use what ur son said as a warning as you are and get info to keep him healthy...

-It's been known to happen that sometimes what a Coach says to kids can sometimes be misunderstood or out of context.

- If your Son is working with a instructor get his advice on arm care and preventative care. The pitcher refreezable ice bags for shoulder and elbow are a worthy investment.

- There is a difference in my opinion between pain and muscle soreness, I'm not suggesting to pitch through it but just make sure your Son realizes the difference between elbow pain and a tired arm.

- If you know parents of Pitchers who have been on the team in prior years talk to them about how the coach manages his staff...maybe there have not been issues (u can hope)

I remember when my Son was a Freshman everything the Coach said was gospel...I'm sure the Coach didn't remember 1/2 the stuff the kids took to heart or that my Son misunderstood a fair amount.

bb1


Be careful with this coach, remember that you are the parent. Do not allow this person to hurt your sons arm.

Here is a link to an article on pitcher abuse

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=148

bb1,

When my son was a freshman in HS we faced a similar situation. I found some books and websites with good info, along with the discussions here on this site. (My son insisted on handling this issue with the coach himself, so we discussed it thoroughly.)

You will find varying opinions and will have to read a lot, compare the logic and background of those offering the opinions, to determine what is healthy for your son as a HS pitcher.

Here are a few previous discussions from this site as starters:

Understanding Pitch Counts

POLL: MAXIMUM INNINGS FOR HS PITCHER

What do you look at as a coach? The Innings pitched or the pitch count?

Can you tell the HS coach no?

Fastball/Change is all you need kids!

There are so many factors to consider when trying to help a young pitcher stay healthy. If his coach tells him to pitch through pain or soreness, and he does - he will probably compensate with a change in mechanics that becomes the beginning of an injury in the other joint of his arm (shoulder vs. elbow). And it's not just a matter of "don't pitch if your arm hurts". Pitching is such a violent motion that it causes many microscopic tears in tissues of the shoulder and elbow. If those tears don't have enough time to heal, they may not hurt in the next outing, but over time, they will add up to the likelihood of serious injury.

There are many other discussions on the site from the past few years that may help you, and some of them include links to other good sources. Best wishes, and don't be afraid to ask more questions, even if you think they have all been asked before.

Julie

This is another good reason to be ready for the season (e.g., Long-Toss and throw 5x week) BEFORE the season starts.

I don't have a pitcher, ( my oldest was a HS catcher and my Junior is a shortstop ) so I am only throwing in my two cents based on my opinion from what I have observed and learned through my son's team mates who were/are pitchers.

I have to agree with MN-Mom's quote:

quote:

HS pitchers should not keep pitching through the pain, if they want to pitch later in that season and future seasons.

IMHO, pitcher pain = serious caution needed!

BB1
First of all these are High school kids and they may be blowing the story up a little . If the coach doesnt have a rep of killing pitchers then I would just keep my eyes and ears open.

Now if you don't like what you see:
Don't let a coach ruin your kids arm. There may be some soreness after a long outing, you should have a day off or two and if there is soreness 5-10 min after warming up ...shut it down for another day. There is a large difference between soreness and pain, soreness goes away.You mentioned that your son has an outside coach, keep him posted and don't be afraid to ask him questions. MN hit a good point, muscle and tissue need time to heal. In additon , the mention of mechanical changes to compensate for pain will be a killer. Too many coaches think they know it all and it is their way or the highway. What is worse is a coach who made it to a certain level as a position player and decides he'll be the pitching coach. It happens at all levels. Keep you eye fixed on what goes on. Make sure what is being taught is correct. Remember coaches are are just people and some have very little background in pitching. Make sure your players mechanics stay in check. When somebody changes them, they better know what they are doing .

I tell this from experience. Monday FEB 12 my kid just had his UCL surgery(TJ). We all know why it happened (doctors, current pitching coaches , myself) and that is all I 'll say about that part. Act quickly if there are changes in his delivery and pain become present, you will really hate seeing your player out for the next 9-14 months, and that would be a good time frame.

Good Luck

Keep in mind that soreness and pain are not necessarily one and the same

Lclcoach I am sorry that your son hurt his arm. I truly hope that he comes back stronger. My son also had a potentially very serious injury in the past that fortunately did not require surgery. I also blame myself for that injury and I will not let it happen again because of lack of knowledge.
He has been working hard all winter long, with core training, exercising and long toss. Even though he has done everything he can to avoid injury a coach with this kind of attitude worries me. I will keep my eyes and ears open. I do know that sometimes what is heard is not what was said. He has also told them that they need to pitch 7 innings and if they can't they don't need them. I have also heard that from other parents. I will also speak to one that I do know and find out more about his son. Fortunately for this year at least I think this coach will be working mostly with the varsity so my son after tryouts probably will have little contact with him. He can establish himself at a lower level and hopefully be left alone when he finally does make varsity.

Here is what we (Certfied Athletic Trainers) look for in terms of areas of sorness:

If he has soreness in the biceps area and the middle of his forearm...that is pretty much normal.

If he has sorness in the back of his shoulder and shoulder blade...that, too is pretty normal.

The TWO areas to watch for sorness are...the front side of his shoulder and the inside (medial) of his elbow...then that would be more cause for concern.

We are talking about a very young kid here. It is hard sometimes to be able to tell the difference between soreness and pain. Both hurt! When you are throwing with a very sore arm alot of times your mechanics will suffer which can lead to injury. I do not believe in throwing through severe soreness. A little sore or tight sometimes some light toss will help eleveate it. Heavy throwing days need to be followed up with alot of running and the next day you need to let each kid determine how much they need to throw. Every kid is different. Some can go to practice throw alot and never get sore. Some kids get sore and need to let their own body tell them to how much they need to throw the next day. We are talking about HS baseball here. And we are talking about young arms. As a parent I would tell my son to monitor his arm. If you get sore and your arm is tired you need to limit the throwing and the effort behind it. Have your son first talk to the coach and explain to him "Coach my arm is really tired. Can I limit my throwing today and take it kind of easy"? If the coach continues to force your kid to throw after this then it is time for you as a parent to talk to the coach. Our guys come into the HS season ready to play. They throw in the off season and rarely do we have a sore arm. When we do we tell them "Dont throw if your arm is sore. Get some running in and put a bucket beside you and just put the ground balls in the bucket". There is a big difference in being a little sore and hanging. Continue to throw when you are hanging and you are asking for big problems. JMHO

I don’t know how to change this but I have seen it year after year. Kids throw a lot prior to the tryouts but when they get to the first tryouts/practices they over extend themselves to make a good impression. I would guess this happens at all levels of baseball.

Great advice from all parties -

Here's some more from a pitcher's Dad

Don't believe everything you hear.
Do discreetly check out the coach's track record.
Do teach your son to "listen to his own body" - this is especially important for a pitcher
Educate yourself thoroughly on pitching mechanics and the difference between pain and soreness
Nothing good ever came from throwing through pain (please, no references to Schilling - this is a high school kid)
Do not let this happen again - condition in the winter with core training (especially since you have a pitching instructor - this was a no-brainer)
Let your son handle this initially, but do not hesitate to step in and talk directly to the coach as he is your son and you will never forgive yourself if an error is made that you could have prevented.

Let us know what happens!

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
HS pitching coach told the kids today that their arms would be falling off, elbows and shoulders hurting but they needed to work through it. What do you do? Not throw full speed? Work mostly on mechanics? My son doesn't need an injured arm because the coach thinks you need to work through it. He is also of the mind set that it's his way only. This kid is a lefty, throws low 80's as a freshman and has been working with an instructor for 3yrs. I can see this becoming a serious issue when you mess with arms.

The guy is a fool.

First, there is a difference between soreness and pain. Pain is bad because it is the sign of an injury. Soreness isn't necessarily bad.

You should NEVER pitch through pain, if you want to preserve your arm.

It sounds like he has potential, but this coach may destroy his arm. If it was my son, and assuming he could play another position, I would consider have him faking control problems so that he wouldn't have to pitch for this moron.

If he's truly gifted, he can always pick up pitching again in a few years.

Right now I'm scouting a kid who's a converted OFer who has beautiful mechanics and an arm that's still in one piece.

Alot of great arms are never seen when it matters the most. Most of the kids that were the top pitchers when my son was coming up are no longer pitching. Several have had constant arm problems. You should not have a sore arm when the season starts from just throwing. You should have a sore arm after you throw in a game. The key is when the season starts you should already be in playing shape. Too many kids come out for baseball like its the beginning of the season. The season begins as soon as the season ends. Core training , long toss , cardio etc etc does not start when the season starts. The vast majority of arm problems are not brought on by throwing too much. They are brought on by not throwing enough and then trying to throw alot.

Players do not play catch enough anymore !!!

I have been on this site for a while and we hear all the things about pitch counts innings pitched etc. There is pain and there is soreness. Also the location of the pain or soreness is to be taken into account. You have to use common sense. I was an infielder in my playing days. I fielded groundballs every day and threw every day. I usually got sore in the beginning of the season but threw through it. I listened to my arm. The soreness was muscular. Again common sense. If the soreness or pain is persistent even after rest you get checked out.

Trhit

We talked about this before as a kid we played everyday threw every day. Maybe the old adage use it or lose it applies here. I am 58 years old and still can pitch a round of BP with a little mustard.

Just my two bits:
a. maybe the lad is exaggerating a little, or maybe the coach is just using some hyperbole to liven it up a little... maybe he's a big talker.. I don't know
2. The players has to listen to his body
D. Parent... tread carefully here. Remember, you want your player to respect the coach (if it's the only dumb thing he says all year that's pretty good) and if you taint him one way you can stain something you can't fix...

Will

They key is that we threw (played catch) --it wasnt pitching---just exercising the arm and having fun

You shouldn't always throw through soreness. If it is sore then there's damage. Generally, you want to either rest the arm by not throwing or by throwing only lightly when there's soreness. The right approach is more of an art than a science.

Every year when tryouts are held this is what I see. The guys that work out in the off season are never complaining of a sore arm. These are the same guys that are throwing year round with a break for a couple of months around Dec Jan sometimes around 6 weeks. All the other kids are hurting after the first day sometimes before the first work out is over. By the second day of workouts they are flat out hanging and you can smell the icy hot from a mile away. Also these are the same kids that dont own their own bat. Just found their glove. And then can not understand why they were cut. The days of kids picking up the game on the first day of tryouts and putting the glove in the closet after the last game are over. At least around these parts. But I still say a coach has to understand that kids are different. Some hang quicker than others no matter how much they throw or work out in the off season. You have to trust the kids and let them be the judge of what their body is telling them. Coaches that do not do this are taking a risk with someone elses arm. I dont like that.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
D. Parent... tread carefully here. Remember, you want your player to respect the coach (if it's the only dumb thing he says all year that's pretty good) and if you taint him one way you can stain something you can't fix...

Really good point Trojan-skipper - If the player is seen as not respecting the coach, that can stick with him for all four years in the program. Even though he may not play Varsity this year, coaches remember.

Coaches talk for 2 hours a day - and some things that they say may not come out right or may not be heard correctly.

Yes - what was heard sends little alarm bells off - and you should pay attention as a parent - but at the same time look at what is actually done over a series of practices.

See if the pitching program alternates the amount and level of throwing - More throwing-less throwing, more velocity-less velocity, long toss-short toss, running and days of rest are all variables to combine.

08

quote:

You have to trust the kids and let them be the judge of what their body is telling them.

Absolutely true. Educate your son and I don't mean dad telling him. Get professional advice on arm injuries.
Make sure your son knows his bidy and the signs that tell him to shut it down and go to a doctor long before it gets serious. Today with all the knowledge out there you should be able to know when.

I am also a proponent of all year work out. You should hit tryouts in game shape.

quote:

The vast majority of arm problems are not brought on by throwing too much. They are brought on by not throwing enough and then trying to throw alot.

Very well stated. Even I can understand it. Should be posted above the door of every high school bullpen in the country.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Every year when tryouts are held this is what I see. The guys that work out in the off season are never complaining of a sore arm. These are the same guys that are throwing year round with a break for a couple of months around Dec Jan sometimes around 6 weeks. All the other kids are hurting after the first day sometimes before the first work out is over. By the second day of workouts they are flat out hanging and you can smell the icy hot from a mile away. Also these are the same kids that dont own their own bat. Just found their glove. And then can not understand why they were cut. The days of kids picking up the game on the first day of tryouts and putting the glove in the closet after the last game are over. At least around these parts. But I still say a coach has to understand that kids are different. Some hang quicker than others no matter how much they throw or work out in the off season. You have to trust the kids and let them be the judge of what their body is telling them. Coaches that do not do this are taking a risk with someone elses arm. I dont like that.

CM,
Great points.

So many kids show up to try out for baseball, not in shape to try out for baseball! This is understandable, many players ARE NOT prepared for try outs, they become sore and give up. I think maybe, the coach was trying to make a point, but may have been taken out of context.

bb1,
You will get lots of advice regarding your post. There is a difference between soreness and pain, and you should discuss this with your son and have him discuss it with his instructor. If your son has followed an off season work out program, he should be fine. He should be throwing everyday to strengthen his arm, but should NOT throw if in pain.

JMO.

quote:

just exercising the arm and having fun

Trhit

It is amazing when you talk about fun. When I see some of the guys I coached many times they talk of something I said or something that happened on the bus on a away game or something that happened during the game or practice that has nothing to do with baseball. you have to have some fun.

Getting to the point about the coach. Do you know how many kids are not able to throw the ball in HS because the parent did not want to hurt their sons chances of making the All Star team by speaking up? And then take that another step. How many will not be able to throw the ball in college because they did not want to upset the HS coach? Sometimes you have to inquire. If the coach continues to make your son throw when he is not able to throw properly because of severe soreness or pain when are you going to speak up? After his career is over and you are no longer in fear of him black balling him because he has no career to black ball? The player needs to speak up. The coach needs to listen. The coach will not listen. The players guardian needs to speak up and at least inquire about the situation. If this coach black balls your son because you are concerned about his health then why would you want him playing for him in the first place? Im not in anyway saying this is the case with this coach. But if it is then this is how I would handle it.

Great opinions everyone. I will take eveything into account. It is greatly appreciated and much to talk to my son about. I am going to keep a close eye on what goes on but will not step in unless absolutely necessary. I'm also going to buy a hand held pitch count thing so I can keep track while he's on the mound. All arms are different and to try and put them in the same mold is just wrong and bound to injure someone. I do know of a kid there that tore a labrum and is now done. I don't know the full story so I can't blame anyone.
I think so far he has done everything right with working out since early October with core training, exercising and long toss as long as the weather was good. He shouldn't have a problem with the throwing they will do. They do use radar so he plans on going 100% when that's going on and around 70% when they are not using it. They rotate kids in and out 4x for around a total of 120 ptiches. Too much in my opinion but if he doesn't go full tilt should be fine. This is just tryouts and once they see him in a game I'm hoping they'll leave him alone.

120 pitches???!!!
In that case the freakin' coach is Looney.

They will throw 4x each with a break in between, I guess kind of simulating an inning but yeah it is a lot. He was using a body blade to loosen things up before he left. I told my son before he left tonight that there is no way whatsoever that you go all out. Just don't do it. It's not worth it. I hope everyone can see why I'm concerned and he's been working for this tryout 4-5x a week. He's as ready as anyone there.