Skip to main content

20 replies

How to better handle?

S scocar10+ posts
Runners on 1st and 2nd. Batter hits ball off end of bat squibbing it down the first base line, first baseman attempts tag on batter-runner. From my angle in "C" position it looks like a good tag. I also did not see or hear any signal from the plate umpire regarding the tag. I could not see it because the first baseman was inside the baseline and his body blocked my view of the tag. Assuming the batter-runner is out I turn to third as the first baseman throws there attempting to get the runner advancing from second. Ball gets there first, but tag is applied late. I signal safe. With a runner on second I resume my spot in the "C" position. After a pitch or two is thrown to the batter I notice there is a runner at first base. I also over hear the defensive coaches talking amongst themselves about the play at third being a force play. I realize that the plate umpire must have signaled no tag, but I did not realize it as I had turned to third to see that play. Had I known the first baseman had missed the tag I would have called the runner going to third out because he was out on the force play.

Would you fix the situation at this point or after two pitches is it too late and is it sort of the on the defensive coaches for not calling time and questioning the ruling.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
I realize that the plate umpire must have signaled no tag, but I did not realize it as I had turned to third to see that play.


If you're the field base umpire, don't you have the call at first base? There's a runner standing there because YOU didn't call him out!


From my angle there was no way I could see a tag or not. On a tag play up the fist base line as the plate umpire I always call the tag play as I have a far better angle, and I'm much closer to the play. If the base umpire is making a tag call from "C" position on that play he's guessing. I think the speed of the play had something to do with it as well. The first baseman stuck his hand and glove towards the runner for the tag and then immediately threw to third where I focused on getting in position for the tag play.

Clearly I should have either made a call or motioned for the plate umpire for help. But the throw to third came instantly and I assumed a tag had been applied.
S scocar10+ posts
I would like to hear exactly how a base umpire would have handled this play. I did not see a tag, but assumed it had been made. It looked very routine. I didn't want to make the call not seeing the tag, but didn't really have time to ask my partner for help on the tag as the throw to third was immediate.

I guess I could have called the batter-runner out, then made my call at third. But I hesitated making the call on the batter-runner only because I didn't actually see a tag. I assumed a tag had been made and everyone was aware based on the actions of the first baseman. It looked like a pretty easy play for him to make.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
1. C is the starting position, it should not have been the position from which to make the call at first. When the BU saw the ball off the bat and down the line he should have adjusted his position to improve his angle at first by moving closer, at least into the working area, and towards the 1st/2nd base line which would have opened his angle and not straightlined him with the first baseman.

Don't take root when starting in B or C. Move.

2. While BU has fair/foul on this batted ball, the call at first belonged to BU and he needs to make a call. Nothing is worse on a play than leaving everything up in the air. For BU to assume an out or is foolish.

3. "I realize the plate umpire must have signaled no tag." Huh? It wasn't his call to make. It was BU's. Each umpire takes and makes his call.

4. "Had I known the first baseman had missed the tag I would have called the runner going to third out because he was out on the force play." This was BU decision. He should have made the all on whether or not the batter/runner was tagged. This should not be a mystery to him.

5. "On a tag play up the fist base line as the plate umpire I always call the tag play as I have a far better angle, and I'm much closer to the play."

100% incorrect mechanic.

What a cluster. If the PU was as much in the dark as the BU both are in need of training. At the very least, they should own the PBUC redbook, "Two Umpire Mechanics" and read it...repeatedly.

No one should take the field and umpire in a two man mechanic system without knowledge of the system unless they, at least, discusus the situations that can arise with each other and agree on who has what.

Player, coaches and fans have the right to expect that umpires have a working knowledge of the system they are working, regardless of the level of ball.
Last edited by Jimmy03
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
1. C is the starting position, it should not have been the position from which to make the call at first. When the BU saw the ball off the bat and down the line he should have adjusted his position to improve his angle at first by moving closer, at least into the working area, and towards the 1st/2nd base line which would have opened his angle and not straightlined him with the first baseman.

Don't take root when starting in B or C. Move.

2. While BU has fair/foul on this batted ball, the call at first belonged to BU and he needs to make a call. Nothing is worse on a play than leaving everything up in the air. For BU to assume an out or is foolish.

3. "I realize the plate umpire must have signaled no tag." Huh? It wasn't his call to make. It was BU's. Each umpire takes and makes his call.

4. "Had I known the first baseman had missed the tag I would have called the runner going to third out because he was out on the force play." This was BU decision. He should have made the all on whether or not the batter/runner was tagged. This should not be a mystery to him.

5. "On a tag play up the fist base line as the plate umpire I always call the tag play as I have a far better angle, and I'm much closer to the play."

100% incorrect mechanic.

What a cluster. If the PU was as much in the dark as the BU both are in need of training. At the very least, they should own the PBUC redbook, "Two Umpire Mechanics" and read it...repeatedly.

No one should take the field and umpire in a two man mechanic system without knowledge of the system unless they, at least, discusus the situations that can arise with each other and agree on who has what.

Player, coaches and fans have the right to expect that umpires have a working knowledge of the system they are working, regardless of the level of ball.


I guess I should have prefaced that this actually happened in softball as well not baseball. I was just figuring that the situations could be applied equally. In softball obviously I'm limited with my angles because there was a runner going from second to third and I can't really cross their path, as I'm outside the baseline.

When you say that the tag should not be a mystery to him, are you saying you NEVER don't see a tag up the first base line when in "C" position? I find that hard to fathom.
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
What a cluster. If the PU was as much in the dark as the BU both are in need of training. At the very least, they should own the PBUC redbook, "Two Umpire Mechanics" and read it...repeatedly.

No one should take the field and umpire in a two man mechanic system without knowledge of the system unless they, at least, discusus the situations that can arise with each other and agree on who has what.

Player, coaches and fans have the right to expect that umpires have a working knowledge of the system they are working, regardless of the level of ball.


I don't pretend to be an umpire that never has mucked up a situation. I realize that this situation was handled poorly, which is why I came on here asking for advice. But trust me I've worked many, many games with umpires that have been far worse than me. Your response above is completely unrealistic. I work with umpires that are fresh out of high school. I work with umpires of many different levels. To think that umpires NEVER are out of position, or never hesitate making a call because the situation caught them off guard, or NEVER confuse a mechanic or responsibility is just not realistic.

When an umpire comes on here and asks a question and is told that they don't even belong on the field, why would anyone come on here and ask questions? You do realize the reason we are asking is that we are not as skilled and experienced as you, right? So we are admitting our failures in some sense and requesting advice for getting better. Being told that we shouldn't even umpire seems rather harsh to me. If all leagues, tournaments, and high school associations adopted your standards there would not be enough umpires to officiate the games.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
Reading is fundamental. I never said anyone here should not umpire. I said no one should umpire without a working knowledge of the system they are using. And I stand by that.

Age is no excuse. I train 14 year olds to umpire. But we never, never, put an umpire out to work a game or a sytem them cannot handle.

No need to take this personally. The fault here is not the umpires, but rather, whatever association, trainer, assigner or league is having them work unprepared.

My response is not unrealistic. Subjecting teams and coaches to level appropriate untrained umpires is unrealistic.

Every league, tournament and conference I have ever worked has adopted standards at least equal to that which I describe here or higher.

Simply put, umpires must be trained to the level they are working. I know of no coach who accepts less.
Last edited by Jimmy03
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
If all leagues, tournaments, and high school associations adopted your standards there would not be enough umpires to officiate the games.


scocar, as this is a HS site, we default to the accepted NFHS rules and NFHS also has a required mechanics system... as a trainer and rule interpreter, we most certainly insist that our umpires not only pass the required certication exam, but also must demonstrate that they know the accepted 2 man mechanic system. You can not do HS games without it....

This is the same for NCAA as well......and to be honest most all of us adopt the CCA 2 man mechanic system for all of our games due to its superior qualities.....

Its to prevent the exact muck up that happened to you.....if you would like training info on the 2 man system, Id be happy to send it to you....
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
Also, softball mechanics could likely be different, I don't do softball so I can speak to that. What I do work is 60 ft baseball that should be similar and I do cross the baseline. In softball do you take steals on the outside? I cross the baseline and take it on the inside.


?
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
Also, softball mechanics could likely be different, I don't do softball so I can speak to that. What I do work is 60 ft baseball that should be similar and I do cross the baseline. In softball do you take steals on the outside? I cross the baseline and take it on the inside.


?


If it is feasible to come inside we do. On steals it's much more understandable to do this. In my situation however I would have potentially gotten in the runners way. I'm impressed on a runner stealing third that you can really cross in front of them fast enough for that to be the best choice.
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Reading is fundamental. I never said anyone here should not umpire. I said no one should umpire without a working knowledge of the system they are using. And I stand by that.

Age is no excuse. I train 14 year olds to umpire. But we never, never, put an umpire out to work a game or a sytem them cannot handle.

No need to take this personally. The fault here is not the umpires, but rather, whatever association, trainer, assigner or league is having them work unprepared.

My response is not unrealistic. Subjecting teams and coaches to level appropriate untrained umpires is unrealistic.

Every league, tournament and conference I have ever worked has adopted standards at least equal to that which I describe here or higher.

Simply put, umpires must be trained to the level they are working. I know of no coach who accepts less.


So here is my next question then. I posted a similar question on umpire-empire. I basically asked whose call it was on the bunt up the 1st base line with the first baseman charging. I got 3 people that said it was the base umpires call, and 2 people that said up to a certain distance 45 ft or less it it the plate umpires call. So how can umpires be so well versed on the mechanics when experienced umpires have different mechanics?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
1. Those answers may not be contradictory, but rather incomplete.

2. You did not stipulate where the play was made other than the first base line.

3. There are different schools of mechanics. The important issue is that both umpires are versed in the one they are using and agree to the one they are using.

4. Regardless of the mechanics, a call MUST BE MADE. No mechanic system provides for assuming on plays.

5. Each response you got provided that an umpire make a call, which apparently did not happen in your scenario.

AND

6. Most importantly....these are great questions we get not just from you but others as well. However, the others ask, appropriately, before they work a game, not after.

Seek out training and purchase a mechanics manual. You owe to the teams and coaches to have a better understanding of what your responsibilities are on the field, and umpiring, like everything else, is more rewarding when done well.
Last edited by Jimmy03
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
1. Those answers may not be contradictory, but rather incomplete.

2. You did not stipulate where the play was made other than the first base line.

3. There are different schools of mechanics. The important issue is that both umpires are versed in the one they are using and agree to the one they are using.

4. Regardless of the mechanics, a call MUST BE MADE. No mechanic system provides for assuming on plays.

5. Each response you got provided that an umpire make a call, which apparently did not happen in your scenario.

AND

6. Most importantly....these are great questions we get not just from you but others as well. However, the others ask, appropriately, before they work a game, not after.

Seek out training and purchase a mechanics manual. You owe to the teams and coaches to have a better understanding of what your responsibilities are on the field, and umpiring, like everything else, is more rewarding when done well.


With all due respect I've read through these threads and MANY of them are people asking about things that happened.
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
1. Those answers may not be contradictory, but rather incomplete.

2. You did not stipulate where the play was made other than the first base line.

3. There are different schools of mechanics. The important issue is that both umpires are versed in the one they are using and agree to the one they are using.

4. Regardless of the mechanics, a call MUST BE MADE. No mechanic system provides for assuming on plays.

5. Each response you got provided that an umpire make a call, which apparently did not happen in your scenario.

AND

6. Most importantly....these are great questions we get not just from you but others as well. However, the others ask, appropriately, before they work a game, not after.

Seek out training and purchase a mechanics manual. You owe to the teams and coaches to have a better understanding of what your responsibilities are on the field, and umpiring, like everything else, is more rewarding when done well.


1. How could they be incomplete? I asked whose call it was on a tag. Some said it's clearly the BU at all times and the PU only gets involved if the BU asks for help. Others said up to a certain distance (one said 45 feet, the other said 30 feet), it's the PU's call.

2. The play was about 10 feet out of the batters box. It was right in front of the PU.

3. I'm definitely finding that to be the case. I moved to St. Louis from Phoenix and am finding many differences. The problem is that I'm finding even within umpires in this area there are different mechanics.
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by scocar:
If all leagues, tournaments, and high school associations adopted your standards there would not be enough umpires to officiate the games.


scocar, as this is a HS site, we default to the accepted NFHS rules and NFHS also has a required mechanics system... as a trainer and rule interpreter, we most certainly insist that our umpires not only pass the required certication exam, but also must demonstrate that they know the accepted 2 man mechanic system. You can not do HS games without it....

This is the same for NCAA as well......and to be honest most all of us adopt the CCA 2 man mechanic system for all of our games due to its superior qualities.....

Its to prevent the exact muck up that happened to you.....if you would like training info on the 2 man system, Id be happy to send it to you....


I have the NFHS umpired mechanics manual and have been reading through it. Most of my lack of knowledge and mistakes come from two things:

1. Lack of practice. As with anything the more you practice it the more it becomes second nature. As I stated earlier I've umpired quite sporadically over the past 6 years. I would say that I've done fewer than 40 games per year for the past 6 years with half of those coming in one week at a FP tournament I've done in Denver the past 4 years.

2. Lack of training. While I did go through some clinics early on they were like 10 years ago. Most of my training has been on the job. I was able to get certified in Missouri by simply passing an open book online test. I technically could have had someone take the test for me.

I will say that I have umpired with 6 other umpires since I've moved. I worked with one that told me when the first baseman collided with a runner going to second base after an overthrow at first that it wasn't OBS because the first baseman was going for the ball. I worked with a guy that claimed to be a very experienced umpire but while he was on the bases he never once watched to see whether the runners touched their bases. He just turned around and watched the ball rolling in the outfield. On the plate he didn't use an indicator and lost the count a few times. The catchers also cleaned his plate with their glove at least a half dozen times. I worked with another guy that never once came from behind the plate to follow then runner up the first base line to see about interference or a pulled foot. My point is that even with my lack of knowledge and lack of practice, my mechanics and attention to detail is as good or better than pretty much every umpire I've worked with out here.
S scocar10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
FP? Fast Pitch? I must have missed that you are working softball.

What level of softball this summer?


I worked more softball back in Phoenix. The association I worked with had a contract with Triple Crown Sports and did almost all of the assigning in the Phoenix area for TCS tournaments. Then in the summer I did the Colorado Sparkler tournament in Denver for 4 straight years (didn't go this year as I live in St. Louis now). I also did the TCS World Series in Park City, Utah.

I have not done any softball this summer in St. Louis.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
The PU has the first half, the BU has the second half. If you are unsure what your partner might do, pregame that scenario. As far as crossing the baseline, read where the ball is hit and where the play may go, then decide what to do. If the ball is hit to SS or F5, all you will be able to do is move in on the dirt but behind the fielders. If it's hit to the right side then you should be able to come farther. However do as your group says do it or watch the guys in the group that you feel is the better guys, see what they do.

Add Reply

Post
.

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×