How to call the curve ball

quote:

Originally posted by mrtarheel:
We has a situation where a high curve ball was dropping fast. I was a little high when it came across the front of the plate; but because it was a hard 12-6 break, it was low enough to be called a strike by the time it crossed the back of the plate. I was told it is where the pitch is when it crossed the front of the plate. I thought if the ball crossed any part of the plate it was a strike. What is the call?

Your understanding is correct. The strike zone is 3-dimensional.

I'm surprised a tarheel fan got it right. (Just having fun Mr. T. My son went to Duke - inventor of the beer-launching fridge.)

Thanks. I always thought it was any part of the basll on any part of the plate.

Could you please let me know where to find this in the rule book?

Thanks

From the NFHS rulebook:
The strike zone is that space over home plate, the top of which is halfway
between the batter’s shoulders and the waistline, and the bottom being the knees,
when he assumes his natural batting stance. The height of the strike zone is
determined by the batter’s normal batting stance. If he crouches or leans over to
make the shoulder line lower, the umpire determines height by what would be the
batter’s normal stance.

quote:

Could you please let me know where to find this in the rule book?

See the definition of Strike Zone.

Rule 2-35. Page 23 of the Rule Book.

Remember, the plate only 17" deep. A pitch, even at the high school level, doesn't have much time to drop in 17". Most good curve balls begin dropping in front of the plate.

A pitch that is still up out of the zone as it hits the plate is, most often, still up at the back of the plate and then looks better when it hits the catcher's glove, behind the plate, which is where most folks remember seeing the pitch.

I wasn't there and maybe the pitch was a strike. But many pitches as described in the OP will be "balls".

Its a strike if it goes through most of the srtike zone how ever you call it

You're right! The ball only needs to cross a section of the plate for a strike.

quote:

Originally posted by The Pitching Academy:
You're right! The ball only needs to cross a section of the plate for a strike.

No, crossing the plate is not enough. We have a vertical requirement that also needs to be met.

My point was that the pitch can drop after it passes the 17" plate and before it reaches the typical high school catcher who sets up too far back.

quote:

Originally posted by FATUMP:
Its a strike if it goes through most of the srtike zone how ever you call it

No, it's a strike if it goes through ANY PART of the strike zone. Not most, not 50%, not 25%. Any part.

quote:

Originally posted by yawetag:

quote:

Originally posted by FATUMP:
Its a strike if it goes through most of the srtike zone how ever you call it

No, it's a strike if it goes through ANY PART of the strike zone. Not most, not 50%, not 25%. Any part.

And it is any part of the baseball, including it's aura, which can be quite large.

[And it is any part of the baseball, including it's aura, which can be quite large]

Especially on the outside part of the plate...

A common saying is "Any part of the ball touching any part of the zone."

Allow me to play devil's advocate:

Low pitch comes in and nicks the front outside corner at the bottom of the knee. By the time it reach the back edge of the plate, it is clearly outside and takes dirt.

Strike?

quote:

Low pitch comes in and nicks the front outside corner at the bottom of the knee. By the time it reach the back edge of the plate, it is clearly outside and takes dirt.

Strike?

Well, technically yes. But if you're going to call that pitch a strike, you may as well inform the head coaches at the pre-game meeting that they probably won't be around very long.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

Low pitch comes in and nicks the front outside corner at the bottom of the knee. By the time it reach the back edge of the plate, it is clearly outside and takes dirt.

Strike?

Dirt = Ball.

(Putting on my flak jacket before my next statement) A good catcher is often the difference between a ball and a strike. Perception is everything - it can significantly affect my credibility as a ball and strike umpire. The same borderline pitch can be called differently depending on how it is handled.

quote:

(Putting on my flak jacket before my next statement) A good catcher is often the difference between a ball and a strike. Perception is everything - it can significantly affect my credibility as a ball and strike umpire. The same borderline pitch can be called differently depending on how it is handled.

I agree a good catcher who knows how to work his glove makes it interesting. Having said that it is one of my biggest peeves and I will quickly let the catcher know that while I may be a little old my eyes work fine so just catch the ball and throw it back to the pitcher since I don't need the catcher's help with the strike zone.

quote:

Low pitch comes in and nicks the front outside corner at the bottom of the knee. By the time it reach the back edge of the plate, it is clearly outside and takes dirt.

Strike?

I don't believe that a ball can be in the zone at the front of the plate and hit the dirt by the back of the plate.

Ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

Low pitch comes in and nicks the front outside corner at the bottom of the knee. By the time it reach the back edge of the plate, it is clearly outside and takes dirt.

Strike?

I don't believe that a ball can be in the zone at the front of the plate and hit the dirt by the back of the plate.

Ball.

In this case, reality has nothing to do with your perception. If the ball is already on a downward trajectory it can easily be done, and it is often done.

I find it interesting that some folks don't believe this can happen, yet many of them will believe that a pitch can take the shoulder at that front of the plate and be a strike at the back of the plate.

Okay the votes from umpires is that a pitch that barely nicks the zone as it hits the plate, but is outside and takes dirt as it exits the plate is called a ball.

So we're already outside of the "any part of the ball and any part of the zone." Does that then mean in reality, it becomes a matter of degree?

For example: Same location as the pitch enters the zone, but now, ankle high as it exites the zone? How about midcalf and outside as it exits the zone?

Or, shoulders as it hits the zone and two balls above the belt as it exits the zone?

Or, does it depend on the level of play?

I admit - how the pitch is perceived matters as much, and perhaps more, than its actual trajectory. If the pitch nicks the bottom of the strike zone and the catcher mashes it into the dirt, I am calling it a ball. If the pitch nicks the outside corner but glances off the catchers mitt and goes back to the screen, I am calling it a ball. On the other hand, if the batter bails out on a curve ball, and the pitch is belt high but breaks around the plate just missing the zone, I am grabbing it.

I just gave three examples of pitches that I would call contrary to the rule book strike zone. There are more. Had I called them "correctly," I would be labeled as a terrible umpire.

Despite what the rule book says, calling balls and strikes is not an exact science.

And yes, the level of play certainly does matter.

Strike?[/QUOTE]
I don't believe that a ball can be in the zone at the front of the plate and hit the dirt by the back of the plate.

Ball.[/QUOTE]

You have not seen a good hard 12-6 CB then, cause I've seen lots of them.

Back to the original question on CB's. "a pitched baseball is a strike until it convinces you otherwise"

There are some very fine umps who will call Jimmy's question a ball. There are some finer umps who will call it a strike IMO. Again IMO the best umps tend to call a low zone, because they are not lazy and get down to see those balls. They also are very good at calling CB's, again because they don't give up on them too soon. There is nothing worse than seeing an umpire give up on a good CB.

The strike zone is also very level dependent. (again IMO)

Great discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Strike?

Back to the original question on CB's. "a pitched baseball is a strike until it convinces you otherwise"

There are some very fine umps who will call Jimmy's question a ball. There are some finer umps who will call it a strike IMO. [/QUOTE]

I have never met a "fine" ump who call pitches in the dirt anywhere near the plate a strike, at any level, especially varsity, college or professional.

quote:

Again IMO the best umps tend to call a low zone, because they are not lazy and get down to see those balls.

You've got that backwards. One doesn't "get down" to see low pitches. Getting down results in losing depth perception and flattening out the pitch. One gets a better view of the low zone by coming up a little.

Whatever the way they see the ball the best Jimmy, again in my opinion the best umpires I see generally call a low zone and they also stay locked in on CB's.

This is almost worth another thread however...

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
IMO the best umps tend to call a low zone, because they are not lazy and get down to see those balls.

From the time you lock in 'til the time the ball is in the catcher's mitt, the only thing that should move is your eyes. (I know many major league umpires move their heads with the pitch. Don't do that until you get to the major leagues. If you want to emulate professional umpires, watch the minor league guys. Their mechanics are generally very sharp and well-practiced.)

quote:

You have not seen a good hard 12-6 CB then, cause I've seen lots of them.

No, I doubt you have ever seen a 12-6 curve that has done this. It would required dropping 12 inches or so in 17 inches of lateral travel.

A curve ball moving at, say 75MPH will take .0128 seconds - just over 1/100th of a second - to travel 17 inches.

So you are telling me that it can drop 12 inches in that time? Sorry, that is physically impossible.

Unless you are talking about an Eephus, it just cannot happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
No, I doubt you have ever seen a 12-6 curve that has done this. It would required dropping 12 inches or so in 17 inches of lateral travel.

Not 17 inches. It's however far it is from the front of the plate to the catcher--far more than 17 inches. Back in the bad old days of McGriff's, I did the math and found that it was theoretically possible for a NON-breaking ball, if released high enough, could touch the zone and still hit the dirt.

Matt13-

No, the question wasn't whether the ball could be in the zone but hit dirt before the catchers mitt. it was whether it could be in the zone at the front of the plate, and hit dirt by the back edge of the plate:

"Low pitch comes in and nicks the front outside corner at the bottom of the knee. By the time it reach the back edge of the plate, it is clearly outside and takes dirt.

Strike?"

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Matt13-

No, the question wasn't whether the ball could be in the zone but hit dirt before the catchers mitt. it was whether it could be in the zone at the front of the plate, and hit dirt by the back edge of the plate:

"Low pitch comes in and nicks the front outside corner at the bottom of the knee. By the time it reach the back edge of the plate, it is clearly outside and takes dirt.

Strike?"

Again, a pitch on already on a downward trajectory can and does do this...often

I'd sure like to have you around when a coach is yammerin about not getting the high curve. "Talk to the guy from Portland, coach, he'll tell you it's impossible."

Rob is right, however an eephus pitch could do it.

My guess is BOF was probably thinking of a pitch that hit the dirt just in front of the catcher rather than the back of the plate.

A good 12 to 6 curve is dropping at about 24 ft/s as it reaches the plate so that 1/100 of a second (75 mph as it crosses the plate would be smoking for Frankie Rodriguez BTW) translates to about a 3 inch drop as it crosses the plate from front to back. Let's assume it is a really good curve or a bit slower than 75 mph and say 4 inches. That would require a batter with very short legs.

On the other hand a high curve starts with an upward velocity at release so it is dropping at a lower velocity as it crosses the plate (hence the hanging curve) so where it crosses the front of the plate and where it crosses the back of the plate are going to be very similar in height. However, let's say the catcher is about 5 ft back of the plate then the ball will only drop about 1.5 ft from the front of the plate to the glove assuming a pitch that lands in the dirt. Once again a high curve isn't going to drop as much. The umpire is probably going to be more accurate adjusting the pitch up from where it is caught than trying to see how high it is as it crosses the plate. Adust up a bit more with the low curve than with the high curve. Generally speaking though if it hits the dirt it is a ball. My knee is 2 feet above the sole of my foot.

Each umpire is going to make the calls the way they are comfortable and as always it is up to the batter and pitcher to adjust accordingly.

Where most umpires make a "mistake" is not realizing how much a fastball, especially a low one is dropping as it goes from the front of the plate to the catcher's glove. A low 4 seam fastball will drop about 8 inches from the front of plate to the catcher's glove unless the catcher is right up on the plate.

This is getting entirely too technical for me….By definition a ball “hitting the dirt” has to be behind the plate, so add a couple of inches. However it seems to me quite plausible that a CB with a downward trajectory can come through the strike zone and hit the ground right behind the plate. For kicks I am going to keep an eye out for this the next couple of games. BTW a 75 MPH CB is that speed out of hand, it is probably around 65 at the plate.

quote:

I'd sure like to have you around when a coach is yammerin about not getting the high curve. "Talk to the guy from Portland, coach, he'll tell you it's impossible."

What are you talking about, Jimmy? Who mentioned the high curve?

quote:

Again, a pitch on already on a downward trajectory can and does do this...often

Sure, like I said: the Eephus.

Let's keep it relatively simple and assume it takes the ball .5 seconds to reach the catcher. The acceleration of gravity is 32 ft/s^2. That means the ball is traveling downward at 16 ft/s due to gravity as it reaches the catcher. The average downward velocity is then 8 ft/s for that 1/2 second so the ball drops 4 ft due to gravity. The very best curves break a total of 2 feet. That means that the ball averaged 4 feet per second downward velocity for 1/2 second. That means that the downward acceleration due to the spin is 8 ft/s^2. That also means that the ball is dropping at 24 ft/s as it reaches the catcher. Recorded data has shown that a really good pure 12 to 6 curve "breaks" 6 ft over a 60 ft. distance. My numbers result in a curve breaking 6 ft with 4 ft of it due to gravity and 2 ft due to spin so they are correct and there's no way in bleep a curve can be a strike when it crosses the plate and hit the dirt just behind the plate. There's very little way it can cross the plate a strike and hit the dirt in front of the catcher.

The key is to watch the trajectory of the curve from the side and not from behind the plate to see how it is really breaking.

Rob said traveling 75 mph as it traversed 17 inches, i.e. the depth of the plate so he was talking about a curve that would be about 83 or more mph out of hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

Again, a pitch on already on a downward trajectory can and does do this...often

Sure, like I said: the Eephus.

No, not the Eephus. Sheeesh.

A good low "slurve" that breaks in front of the plate can nick the knee and the corner and take dirt outside at the back of the plate.

Jimmy,
The earth is not flat even if an umpire says so. There's no way a curve can nick the corner and the knee and hit the dirt at the back of the plate.

The pitch is still a strike if the umpire says so but it didn't go through the strike zone.

The sharp break on a curve is an optical illusion. Time to watch some curves from the side.

Okay, parents aside, we've established that pitches CAN hit the strike zone at the front of the plate and behave in such away that it is not called a strike. e.g. exit the plate area at mid-calf or lower.

I would submit that the opposite of that can happen as well...a pitch can hit the plate high and exit the plate nicking the strike zone and again, not be called a strike, at least at the higher levels.

Mid calf or lower - not a chance unless you're talking 10yo.

High, by an inch or two and nick the zone exiting. That works but that is all it is going to break as it crosses the plate at that height.

So a ball can drop 12 inches or so in a lateral travel of 17"? Really?

I now see why you so often refer to coaches yammering" at you.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Jimmy,
The earth is not flat even if an umpire says so. There's no way a curve can nick the corner and the knee and hit the dirt at the back of the plate.

The pitch is still a strike if the umpire says so but it didn't go through the strike zone.

The sharp break on a curve is an optical illusion. Time to watch some curves from the side.

Has nothing to do with the shape of the earth

Top of the ball, hits the hallow beneath the knee and takes dirt at the back of the plate. Happens, often.

But if your perception says otherwise, fine, change the play to exiting the plate below mid-calf. What you got?

Not a matter of my perception. It is a matter of physics. It is a matter of high speed film tracking the trajectory of a curve ball.

BTW, the coaches have a much better angle to see the height and break of a curve or for that manner, any other pitch as it crosses the plate than the umpire does. The umpire has the angle for inside and outside and the coaches have no clue on that. The coaches have to guess at inside and outside based on where the ball finishes and the catcher's reaction, much the same way the umpire has to guess on height.

If a 3 inch break and the diameter of the ball can take you from the knee to mid calf then fine but that's a pretty short hitter.