How to call the curve ball

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
So a ball can drop 12 inches or so in a lateral travel of 17"? Really?

I now see why you so often refer to coaches yammering" at you.

Okay, don't get hung up by your lack of experience at pro ball. We'll change the play for you too.

Top of ball hits the plate at the hallow beneath the knee and exits the plate mid-calf or lower. What ya got, dad?

By the way, the yammerin' I get is about the coaches lack of knowledge of a rule, not the strike zone. I get to work with better coaches than that.

Actually CADad, he might be right. Pitchers where Jimmy lives routinely are 15 feet tall and bigger. At that release point, it could be possible!

quote:

Top of ball hits the plate at the hallow beneath the knee and exits the plate mid-calf or lower. What ya got, dad?

Why are you changing the question? Are you admitting that it is impossible for a ball to drop 12 inches while traveling 17 inches?

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

Top of ball hits the plate at the hallow beneath the knee and exits the plate mid-calf or lower. What ya got, dad?

Why are you changing the question? Are you admitting that it is impossible for a ball to drop 12 inches while traveling 17 inches?

No, I'm trying to find something you can understand. Is the new example too tough to answer?

Jimmy,
A very good 12 to 6, low curve drops just over 3" from the front of the plate to the back of the plate. That is a fact. That is a very big breaking curve that drops a total of 6 feet. 6 feet over 60 feet is 1 foot for every 10 feet. That's an average of 1.2 inches per foot. That would be about 1.7 inches as it crosses the plate. The ball drops about twice as fast at the end as the average so it drops about 3.4 inches as it crosses the plate for an elite 12 to 6 curve. That is all it drops as it goes from the front of the plate to the back of the plate. The reality is that most curves drop less than that as very few pitchers can throw a true 12 to 6 curve.

Now, now Rob. No more of your "Tall" tales.

Jimmy,
That amazing 12 to 6 curve drops about 1 foot from the plate to the the catcher if the catcher is 5' in back of the plate. Do you understand that if the ball hits the dirt right in front of the catcher that it was midway between the foot and the knee, or lower when it got to the plate?

quote:

No, I'm trying to find something you can understand. Is the new example too tough to answer?

Just like you, Jimmy: get caught in a completely ridiculous assertion, and when it is made absolutely apparent that it was ridiculous, then change the subject, and start with the condescension.

Ridiculous assertion: A pitch can be in the strike zone at the front of the plate and hit the dirt at the back of the plate.

You insisted that this is possible, and insulted me for my lack of experience when I said it wasn't.

Then, when I was insouciant enough to continue to maintain that you were wrong, you try to change the subject, and insult me.

So, do you still insist that a pitch can be in the strike zone at the front of the plate and hit the dirt at the back of the plate?

I mean, you are an umpire, for Pete's sake. I think it is important question.

My son has a very good 12-6 CB that is a somewhat late breaker. I have seen it at the knees at the front of the plate and then have the catcher have trouble catching it. It is NOT in the dirt just behind the plate nor does it bounce before it gets to the catcher.

My problem is that is is rarely called a strike; and this is NOT fair to the pitcher who has just thrown a fantastic pitchers pitch and he is NOT rewarded for it.

quote:

Originally posted by mrtarheel:
My son has a very good 12-6 CB that is a somewhat late breaker. I have seen it at the knees at the front of the plate and then have the catcher have trouble catching it. It is NOT in the dirt just behind the plate nor does it bounce before it gets to the catcher.

My problem is that is is rarely called a strike; and this is NOT fair to the pitcher who has just thrown a fantastic pitchers pitch and he is NOT rewarded for it.

The problem is the catcher. If he knows what he is doing, he'll reach out, thumb down, and stick that pitch before it gets near the dirt. Strike. On the other hand, if he pulls his arm back and turns the glove to trap the ball, no ump worth his salt is going to give it to him.

And Dash nails it.

Dash and MST –

I always look to your viewpoints as sound, knowledgeable and insightful and I appreciate your contributions to the site. Dash, I know you commented about a flack jacket when you first posted “perception is everything” when it comes to calling balls and strikes. No need for the jacket, but this perspective does intrigue me. I have read and re-read the posts related to that statement, have learned a lot and I think I understand it to a certain degree but I am left with many new questions...

(I’m not always great at expressing tone via written posts so please know that these questions are asked solely with an interest to learn insight and mindset from good experienced umpires – no set ups or hidden agendas.)

It seems that most everything an umpire does is based on black and white rules, yet with this issue of balls and strikes, perception becomes a significant factor. Can you expand on why this may be the case? Is this notion hard for experienced umpires such as your selves to wrestle with? Are there other aspects of the game where this is also a factor?

Umpires generally do a great job of tuning out factors that should not affect their calls and decisions, such as chirping fans and coaches, score of the game, etc. Yet, in some of the examples given, you are rewarding or penalizing a pitcher with ball/strike calls due to competence level of the catcher and/or the reaction of a hitter and vice versa. Is this something that you wrestle with as well? Can you expand?

Cabbagedad,

An honest question. I'll give you an honest answer.

The strike zone may be clearly defined (sort of) in the rules, but it is not that black and white. As I said before, perception matters. How the pitch "looks" to others (as well as its actual trajectory) enters into my decision on whether to call it a strike or ball.

A substantial part of any umpire's reputation is how well he calls balls and strikes. Consistency and a "reasonable" strike zone are the primary elements. We strive for those two things because that will lead to moving up and better assignments. We want the plate for the big game. Having a reputation as a good ball and strike umpire helps you get there.

A pitch in the dirt looks like a ball, no matter where it traveled. A pitch that glances off the catcher's mitt and goes back to the screen looks like a ball, even though it caught the outside corner. If I called those pitches strikes (even though by rule, they were strikes), I would hear considerable heat from the dugout, and rightfully so.

Most college (and many HS) coaches understand this. When I ball those pitches, the coach is not going to bark at me, he's going to bark at his catcher. "C'mon Joe, you've got to catch that pitch." "Stick that pitch Joe - help the guy (me) out will ya? He can't give it to you when you catch it like that."

Good catchers understand this too. "My bad" (to the pitcher) is a common utterance when the catcher mishandles a pitch. He knows he just made a strike look like a ball and can't expect me to call it a strike.

It works both ways too.

If the catcher sets up 3" outside, and the pitcher hits his spot and the catcher's mitt doesn't budge, guess what - he's going to get that one. A catcher who yanks that same pitch a foot 'til it's right over the plate probably won't get it. He just told the world he thought it was a ball (by pulling it), so why should I call it a strike? After all, he's the only one who had a better view of the pitch than I.

I'm not saying that hitting a spot always results in a strike, but a good catcher will keep moving out (and other directions) until he finds the limits of the (my) zone, and try to keep his pitcher there all day.

Is this a self-serving philosophy? I guess it is, but that's the way it is. When they come up with the technology to instantly determine whether any part of the ball touched any part of the zone with 100% accuracy, and display it, I'll change my ways. I hope that day never arrives.

Thanks Dash,
That's the type of additional depth and insight I was hoping for.

I second Dash's response. We track the ball to the glove, to the best of our abilities. Good catcher know how to give us as good a look as posible. They do this by being as small as possible, sticking pitches and not snatching pitches. They reach out and catch pitches in front of they instead of catching it against their body. It doesn't make the zone different but it makes the borderline pitches easier to call.
Something I have noticed the past year or so is catchers dropping their head and sticking a low pitch. About 75% of the time the pitch is low. I asked a catcher the other day why they do that. He claims it is so we see the pitch better. I told him it tells us he thinks it's low.

quote:

Consistency and a "reasonable" strike zone are the primary elements.

This is a great statement for calling balls/strikes. Personally I don't like to give the high borderline strike and I agree if catcher sets up just off the outside and the pitcher sticks it he gets the strike. The hard part is staying in the zone once you establish it. Occassionally I have called a high strike or two early in the game. Well, even though I don't really like it now I have established it and need to stick with it.

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
Occassionally I have called a high strike or two early in the game. Well, even though I don't really like it now I have established it and need to stick with it.

If you miss one up, just bear down and don't miss any more. That's far better than calling everything up the rest of the game. No one is ever perfect.

Great response Dash, I wish there were more around like you.

There is nothing more entertaining than watching a good battery getting rewarded by a good umpire. Does not happen a lot but when it does it is fun. My son had the pleasure of pitching a shut out 4 hitter at a PG event with a great ump that rewarded him for his control. He was hitting his spots on the corners and he started to paint the edges and the blue kept going with him until he got to 3 inches off the plate. Our catcher was also solid and after the second inning the three of them were dialed in and the game was done in less than 2 hours. We won 1-0 but it really was not a close game at all. I told the other pitcher after the game “nice job”, and he said thanks but he was not getting the same zone as we were, but he did not get it that he was all over the place. His catcher would set up inside and the ball would go outside and vice versa. The ump was never able to get settled in with him and his catcher and consequently did not get the same zone, as they simply could not demonstrate the control. At the end of the game the ump came up to my son and told him he pitched a great game and the son thanked him for calling a great game also. As they walked off the field our catcher, my son, and the ump were the only ones who really understood what happened. This guy was very experienced had done college ball and I think some MiLB games.

Dash, Michael I appreciate the straight forward answers...but sometimes this penalizes a pitcher. My son is the poster child for this. We have a good college bound catcher who does his best to catch the 12-6 CB. Here is the problem. My son does not throw hard but has this amazing 12-6 CB
that breaks somewhat late and has the strongest downward break I have ever seen in high school Because he does NOT get the call at the knees, he has to throw it a little higher which makes it much more hittable. IMHO, he is being punished because what he does better than others is NOT being rewarded. It is like saying to the kid who has the 90+ fast ball that the catcher has problems handling that he is throwing too hard for his catcher; and therefore we are going to call that pitch right down the middle a ball because the catcher did not cleanly catch it.

You have to love a thread that includes references to McGriffs and our buddy from portland....'ol Tim C