How to count pitches

all counts and recommendations are based on game pitches. 

One, two, three, four ... Sorry, I couldn't resist. Warm up throws don't count. Except for about ten in the pen before coming into the game warmups aren't throw full velocity.

In game pitches the magic number is 100.  If you count warm ups then the magic number has to go up.  I would say around 120 - 130 range.  But to apply the magic number to both is not going to work.  The kid you're talking about might give you 4 - 5 innings tops.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the information.

Game pitches.  More sophisticated programs would also count warmup pitches and other high effort throws (in pro ball), but for amateur players game pitches is most applicable. 

Someone (Stats4Gnats???) once posted a program that counted pitches while applying modifiers to certain events such as high pitch innings.  I think the "count" implies a certain number of warm up pitches based on innings pitched.  So, if you pitch 80, but these are over the course of only three innings, you get a break for not throwing warm up pitches over the course of 6-7 innings, but you get severely dinged by having some high count innings.  If memory serves, it was cumulative with rest between outings.  While this may be impractical for high school pitch count limits, I think this approach is far superior if one is concerned with arm health.  I've seen 40 pitch innings where the pitcher simply gets worn out (maybe 5-10 throws over to first thrown in for fun).  Conversely, have seen 3 pitch innings where a 3 pitch count doesn't really do justice to having thrown 3-4x that many in warm up throws.

Maybe that program also needs to subtract one pitch for every hit or walk the pitcher's team gets.  Never fun to see some pitcher throw a tough 20-25 pitch inning only to have his team go 0-3 and have the kid jogging back to the mound 5 minutes later.

If you start counting non-game pitches you create an incentive for pitchers to enter a game without properly warming up.

I read a long time ago that once a kid gets over 25 pitches in an inning, each pitch has about double the effect of stress. Don't know how accurate that is, but I've always kept that in mind if a kid has a long inning early. 

ironhorse posted:

I read a long time ago that once a kid gets over 25 pitches in an inning, each pitch has about double the effect of stress. Don't know how accurate that is, but I've always kept that in mind if a kid has a long inning early. 

That's always been a problem for my kid. My kid threw Friday. His first three innings he went 24, 27 and 30 pitches and that was without giving up a run or letting a batter get beyond second base. Crazy stuff that had me stressing every pitch late in the innings.

kandkfunk,

If it weren’t so difficult to get a valid count for warm-up and other throws not made during games, I’m sure most of the “experts” would want them counted as well because they do contribute to the overall wear and tear on a pitcher. But as things stand right now, only pitches thrown to a batter in games counted toward the team’s won/lost record are counted as pitches thrown. If a parent wants to count every single throw and is willing to count them himself/herself, there’s nothing at all wrong with it. All it does is make the number more valid.

Interesting thought about anything over 25 pitches in a inning is double the stress. Day my son was hurt and tore his UCL in 4th inning. His first inning was 42 pitches. First batter was 1 pitch. Then 3 runs, 1 BB,  then 2 hits (including HR),  then 2 K over next 5 batters. All went 3-2, one went 11 pitches (the BB) and one went 12 pitches (last K of inning). Next 2 innings were 9 and 10 pitches. Tore it on first pitch of 4th inning

Pitch count recommendations come from ASMI.  They factor in pre-game warmup pitches and between inning warmups in their recommendations.  So, only in game pitches count towards total. 

chefmike7777 posted:

Interesting thought about anything over 25 pitches in a inning is double the stress. Day my son was hurt and tore his UCL in 4th inning. His first inning was 42 pitches. First batter was 1 pitch. Then 3 runs, 1 BB,  then 2 hits (including HR),  then 2 K over next 5 batters. All went 3-2, one went 11 pitches (the BB) and one went 12 pitches (last K of inning). Next 2 innings were 9 and 10 pitches. Tore it on first pitch of 4th inning

See to me that 1st inning leaves his arm (and body), feeling closer 60-65 pitches. 

I'm not pretending I do it solely for arm health, but generally I know when each of my guys becomes gassed. Some at 50, some 80, some 100. So it's important for me to know that he's going to function like he would at a higher pitch count as we start having to make decisions on relief.

I think the next revolution on pitch counts, at least for younger kids, should a limit on the number of pitches permitted in an inning. It's one thing to cruise along and finish a game with a relatively high pitch count, but throw in that one inning that gets out of control for whatever reason, the stress on the arm / shoulder is much higher, even with the same pitch count and less innings.  I'm sure someone is already calculating this and I have no evidence, other than how my youngest son's arm / shoulder react to an inning that is out of control. 

60-65 in first inning. total 80-85  thru 3. I agree, My guess is he would have went 5 innings that day. I have to give it to coaches, they pay attention to arm care. He actually threw 10 pitches in the 4th. I knew something was wrong about pitch 5, I later was told by son and coaches they were asking after every inning because of # of pitches in first and every pitch in 4th they were calling out to him "are you ok",  until coach just came out to mound. When questions on mound. they again asked him if he was ok, he said "  my arm is killing me but I am ok" UGH!!!

There is another boy who had TJ in much the same circumstance as my son. He was injured last year (2015 spring / Febuary) in 2nd weekend of year. HE was back on mound as 3rd SP of team in mid February same day my son was 2ND SP. He was on a strict PC of 70 and they pulled him in mid inning at exactly 70. Twice this year, they have skipped him a week to protect his arm and I know he is on a pretty strict PC still.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Someone (Stats4Gnats???) once posted a program that counted pitches while applying modifiers to certain events such as high pitch innings.  …

I did.

I’m afraid what I do is a tad more complicated than what you described, but the essence is there.

I never did factor in rest time between innings for the pitcher but I do have that number and could.

2forU posted:

I think the next revolution on pitch counts, at least for younger kids, should a limit on the number of pitches permitted in an inning. It's one thing to cruise along and finish a game with a relatively high pitch count, but throw in that one inning that gets out of control for whatever reason, the stress on the arm / shoulder is much higher, even with the same pitch count and less innings.  I'm sure someone is already calculating this and I have no evidence, other than how my youngest son's arm / shoulder react to an inning that is out of control. 

The problem is twofold here. First, this is such a different number individually. That is even more true than for game pitch counts. Second, you will fundamentally change the game strategy in youth baseball. Teams will start working early pitch counts for as much as they can. If you know you can get a kid off the mound in the first with 30 pitches, there's a huge incentive to start taking pitches early in the count as a team rule. I am seeing this in high school with game pitch counts. However, it doesn't come into play as much early in the game. I fear a inning pitch count will end up creating more pitches overall rather than less.

2forU posted:

I think the next revolution on pitch counts, at least for younger kids, should a limit on the number of pitches permitted in an inning. It's one thing to cruise along and finish a game with a relatively high pitch count, but throw in that one inning that gets out of control for whatever reason, the stress on the arm / shoulder is much higher, even with the same pitch count and less innings.  I'm sure someone is already calculating this and I have no evidence, other than how my youngest son's arm / shoulder react to an inning that is out of control. 

In son's org, 30 is max for an inning.

roothog66 posted:

The problem is twofold here. First, this is such a different number individually. That is even more true than for game pitch counts. Second, you will fundamentally change the game strategy in youth baseball. Teams will start working early pitch counts for as much as they can. If you know you can get a kid off the mound in the first with 30 pitches, there's a huge incentive to start taking pitches early in the count as a team rule. I am seeing this in high school with game pitch counts. However, it doesn't come into play as much early in the game. I fear a inning pitch count will end up creating more pitches overall rather than less.

What does it matter if the game strategy changes? All that will happen is more pitchers will need to be developed. Besides, if a pitcher has to throw 30 pitches in an inning, how effective can he be?

Stats4Gnats posted:

roothog66 posted:

The problem is twofold here. First, this is such a different number individually. That is even more true than for game pitch counts. Second, you will fundamentally change the game strategy in youth baseball. Teams will start working early pitch counts for as much as they can. If you know you can get a kid off the mound in the first with 30 pitches, there's a huge incentive to start taking pitches early in the count as a team rule. I am seeing this in high school with game pitch counts. However, it doesn't come into play as much early in the game. I fear a inning pitch count will end up creating more pitches overall rather than less.

 

What does it matter if the game strategy changes? All that will happen is more pitchers will need to be developed. Besides, if a pitcher has to throw 30 pitches in an inning, how effective can he be?

 

It matters because a drastic change in strategy will mean more pitchers throwing longer innings than before. You'll see that 30 mark hit much more often.

On another note, many on here forget. If you have access go back to the books from your kids' younger years. You see a LOT of 30+ innings in youth ball even in competitive games.

I agree with the responses regarding game pitches being the ones that count.  Having said that - I understand the concern at times because I share it.  My son is a closer in the Ivy League.  Ivy format is doubleheader Saturday, doubleheader Sunday (and a mid-week game almost every week).  I see a lot of occasions where he warms multiple times in a weekend and often is needed to come in.  Like all closers, he sometimes warms in the 7th or 8th to get ready, then the game goes to extras so he tries to stay loose, then warms hard again to go in.  Since he was a starter in the last couple of high school years, it's been an adjustment.  One day after a doubleheader that he did not appear in he said to me in passing - I think I threw three innings in the bullpen today.

The bottom line is that not every aspect of pitching can be the subject of regulation. There will always be some aspects of this that will require coaches to understand their pitchers and for pitchers to understand their own limits.

Regulation is typically put in place when the issue, whatever it is, is left up to people to get it right (the human factor).  I agree that the inning limits would be tough and should be left to the individual pitcher understanding his own limits  and the coach relationship.

Dominik85 posted:

Game pitches.  More sophisticated programs would also count warmup pitches and other high effort throws (in pro ball), but for amateur players game pitches is most applicable. 

Who counts warmup pitches?

roothog66 posted:

It matters because a drastic change in strategy will mean more pitchers throwing longer innings than before. You'll see that 30 mark hit much more often.

So what if it gets hit more often as long as there are an adequate number of pitchers able to come in?

On another note, many on here forget. If you have access go back to the books from your kids' younger years. You see a LOT of 30+ innings in youth ball even in competitive games.

Well 1^st of all I think we’re getting all muddled up with respect to what level we’re talking about. Every level’s different and each faces its own “issues”.

I’ve always believed one of the biggest problems with the number of pitches being thrown is the philosophy of “Don’t worry about where it goes, just throw hard.” “We’ll teach you control later on.” That philosophy actually promotes the hi-pitch innings. So maybe the hardest throwing pitchers won’t get the most opportunities, the most accurate will and that will mitigate the issue.

FWIW, this HSV season we’ve had 30 or more pitches thrown 15 times out of a total of 252 opportunities.

For clarification, I was not recommending that states could or should adopt some matrix approach towards pitching counts.  I assume the quoted official/recommended pitch counts do not ignore the idea of warm up pitches nor do they ignore the possibility of high stress pitches and probably do a good job in boiling down these concepts to a single number which can be managed by all.  That said, the OP asked how one counts pitches (not how official pitch counts should be constructed) and I thought he might be interested in some modifiers.  for instance, he might have a coach that has limits well below official limits, but the idea might still be to limit overall stress (maybe max 90, but backing down pitch for pitch on innings over 25).  Conversely, might be rocking along with solid 12-15 pitch innings going into the 7th with 80 or so and have absolutely no problem going over 100 with little stress on a warm May night.  Honestly I would not want my son pitching at most of these limits over the course of an entire high school season.  

One might also want to have some limits on secondary positions based on recent pitching activity - or vice versa coming in from the field (and hopefully not out from behind the plate) to relieve.

I think we all agree that what makes this difficult is that each kid has their own ceiling towards what is too many and it's tough sometimes trying to find it to make sure we don't surpass it.  But another factor is that sometimes that ceiling can change daily.  For example you have a big kid who can go 100 per 7 innings with ease and you may even push it to 110 - but what if he's not feeling it that day?  He had to stay up late studying for a test or he has a touch of a cold / allergies where he feels bad - he's not getting to 100 that day and if you push him it opens up the door for harm.  I know it's tough to get them to be truthful with you but you have to find some way to get these kids to tell the truth about how they feel.  One way is to not judge them if they can't go what you think their ceiling is or what they normally go.  One thing that irritates me is when a kid is truthful and says they are gassed and a coach says something about them being weak mentally / physically.  If that's the case then it falls back on the coach for not making sure they are in shape at least physically.  I want my guys to tell me they're gassed so we can protect them first and help the team second.

As for the pitch totals per inning and leading to a change in strategy - I can see where you're going with that but honestly I would want that as a coach.  Offensively I want them to be selective and drive pitch counts up at all levels.  If they can learn to lay off stuff out of the zone they will become better hitters quicker but the younger they are the harder is it to accomplish it but at least get the mindset going.  Defensively if I know I'm facing a teach who is going to take a lot of pitches I'm licking my lips because I'm going to pound the zone hard.  I'm not going to have them throw right down the chute but if they're going to take that first pitch I'm going to work to get ahead of them.  I think this is where the game balances itself out so even if you're using a take pitches approach it will work out where pitchers will throw more strikes.  Plus, I agree with stats in that it will develop more pitchers which is never a bad thing.