My son has a problem of not letting the ball travel far enough into the zone before contact. He swings too early most of the time, even on fast balls. What would be good way to adjust his timimg problem?
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Unless he has recently changed his mechanics, his problem is most likely his mechanics, not his timing.
If he has "out front" mechanics no matter how much he wants to wait on the ball, he simply won't be able to.
The mind knows his swing. The mind knows that he can not generate a quality swing and hit the ball deep. His desire to hit the ball hard requires a certain level of effort to get the bat moving. His mechanics need time and distance to get the bat moving to that degree. This time and distance that he needs to generate the appropriate bat speed and quickness means that for him to hit the ball hard, he has to hit it "out front".
So, no matter how much he wants to wait, until he changes what he's doing he won't be able to.
If in fact he has recently changed his mechanics and is early because he's now quicker, then he needs reps to engrain the new swing to his mind. If he has new and improved mechanics he should attempt to be so late as to hit the ball into the opposite field dugout. Then the opposite field coaches box. Then the opposite field. etc, etc. working his way to where he can hit the ball up the middle.
If he has "out front" mechanics no matter how much he wants to wait on the ball, he simply won't be able to.
The mind knows his swing. The mind knows that he can not generate a quality swing and hit the ball deep. His desire to hit the ball hard requires a certain level of effort to get the bat moving. His mechanics need time and distance to get the bat moving to that degree. This time and distance that he needs to generate the appropriate bat speed and quickness means that for him to hit the ball hard, he has to hit it "out front".
So, no matter how much he wants to wait, until he changes what he's doing he won't be able to.
If in fact he has recently changed his mechanics and is early because he's now quicker, then he needs reps to engrain the new swing to his mind. If he has new and improved mechanics he should attempt to be so late as to hit the ball into the opposite field dugout. Then the opposite field coaches box. Then the opposite field. etc, etc. working his way to where he can hit the ball up the middle.
Martini
Well said! The kid that is out front usually has a very suboptimal swing
Guys that say just wait longer to hit oppo don't take in account that most kids cannot accomplish that with their current swing.
So...learning to hit oppo is learning to hit period. The competent oppo swing is the correct swing that can handle all pitch locations
Well said! The kid that is out front usually has a very suboptimal swing
Guys that say just wait longer to hit oppo don't take in account that most kids cannot accomplish that with their current swing.
So...learning to hit oppo is learning to hit period. The competent oppo swing is the correct swing that can handle all pitch locations
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
Guys that say just wait longer to hit oppo don't take in account that most kids cannot accomplish that with their current swing.
Any explanation for this statement?
quote:Originally posted by Texan:quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
Guys that say just wait longer to hit oppo don't take in account that most kids cannot accomplish that with their current swing.
Any explanation for this statement?
I'm not swingbuster and don't have his expertise but I'll try to answer. Swingbuster, if I'm wrong, I apologize. A lot of technique taught use phrases such as "extension" ... to the point where the body, hands ... are disconnected. To me these often look like people who swing with thier arms. Therefore, if your teaching a kid to take his hands away from a point of connection then the player attempts to do this early in their swing process. They don't gain that ability to use their bodies more effeciently in the swing. Thus they can't slow their timing down since they can't allow that ball to get to and even over the plate. (Depending upon the pitch.) Well, this is a crude and rude description. I'm not as eloquent as many on the site.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Any explanation for this statement?
Their current swing does not generate sufficient batspeed and quickness at the point necessary to hit the ball hard to the opposite field.
Sorry guys, but I can't go with either of those explanations.
Letting the outside pitch reach the plate before making contact is a matter of when the swing is initiated. It doesn't matter if the swing is quick or slow. It is a matter of waiting beyond the normal (with "normal" being whatever that is for an individual hitter) point in time for swing initiation.
Lack of batspeed can make it more difficult to turn on the inside fb. But it won't make it more difficult to let the outside pitch get over the plate.
Early extension is a problem, but again, this makes it harder to hit the inside pitch with power. Not the outside pitch.
Letting the outside pitch reach the plate before making contact is a matter of when the swing is initiated. It doesn't matter if the swing is quick or slow. It is a matter of waiting beyond the normal (with "normal" being whatever that is for an individual hitter) point in time for swing initiation.
Lack of batspeed can make it more difficult to turn on the inside fb. But it won't make it more difficult to let the outside pitch get over the plate.
Early extension is a problem, but again, this makes it harder to hit the inside pitch with power. Not the outside pitch.
Sorry, Texan, but you know little about which you speak.
My posts are predicated on the fact that this hitter has not recently "discovered" a high level swing.
You would be somewhat correct if you are dealing with a high level swing. That's one of the things that makes a high level swing high level
However, for this poster, who clearly can't wait, he clearly does not have a high level swing.
Again, that's assuming his swing isn't new.
And his inability to wait is because he can not generate sufficient batspeed and quickness, early enough in the swing to hit a ball hard to the opposite field. He has a long, slow swing, relatively speaking. It takes him from launch to "out front" to generate the speed he feels he needs to hit the ball hard.
A good hitter, with a high level swing, can generate that speed from launch to a spot very deep in the zone. Which is a very short distance and over a very short time.
It is a mechanical issue. Not a timing issue. If this kid had a short quick swing it would be easy to just wait.
But, when you don't have a short quick swing it is impossible to wait. The time it takes one to get "up to speed" and hit the ball deep, is not available.
My posts are predicated on the fact that this hitter has not recently "discovered" a high level swing.
You would be somewhat correct if you are dealing with a high level swing. That's one of the things that makes a high level swing high level
However, for this poster, who clearly can't wait, he clearly does not have a high level swing.
Again, that's assuming his swing isn't new.
And his inability to wait is because he can not generate sufficient batspeed and quickness, early enough in the swing to hit a ball hard to the opposite field. He has a long, slow swing, relatively speaking. It takes him from launch to "out front" to generate the speed he feels he needs to hit the ball hard.
A good hitter, with a high level swing, can generate that speed from launch to a spot very deep in the zone. Which is a very short distance and over a very short time.
It is a mechanical issue. Not a timing issue. If this kid had a short quick swing it would be easy to just wait.
But, when you don't have a short quick swing it is impossible to wait. The time it takes one to get "up to speed" and hit the ball deep, is not available.
Double post.
I'm sorry, but your comments are the ones indicating ignorance.
There are kids with good mechanics who experience timing issues. I have seen it with my own eyes. So your statement of "However, for this poster, who clearly can't wait, he clearly does not have a high level swing." is in error. And that is fact.
You haven't seen this kid's swing. You cannot sit there and say beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has bad mechanics. It is incredible for you to do so.
There are kids with good mechanics who experience timing issues. I have seen it with my own eyes. So your statement of "However, for this poster, who clearly can't wait, he clearly does not have a high level swing." is in error. And that is fact.
You haven't seen this kid's swing. You cannot sit there and say beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has bad mechanics. It is incredible for you to do so.
Read the entire thread.
Then, maybe you won't look like you've just got out of bed.
Then, maybe you won't look like you've just got out of bed.
I have.
Post with some decency, then you won't look like such an idiot.
You know absolutely nothing of this kid's mechanics. You assert that it is mechanics. But you have absolutely nothing upon which to base this assertion. It is possible that the boy has a pure timing problem. You have insufficient knowledge to rule this out.
You haven't even asked the age of the hitter.
You are trying to diagnose a swing with wholly inadequate information to do so.
That much is obvious to even the most casual observer. So if you are offended because I called you on this, so be it. Just keep throwing out the insults rather then responding to the issue.
But then perhaps you cannot respond to the issue, which is why you resort to the insults.
Post with some decency, then you won't look like such an idiot.
You know absolutely nothing of this kid's mechanics. You assert that it is mechanics. But you have absolutely nothing upon which to base this assertion. It is possible that the boy has a pure timing problem. You have insufficient knowledge to rule this out.
You haven't even asked the age of the hitter.
You are trying to diagnose a swing with wholly inadequate information to do so.
But then perhaps you cannot respond to the issue, which is why you resort to the insults.
quote:Originally posted by Dirt Digger:
My son has a problem of not letting the ball travel far enough into the zone before contact. He swings too early most of the time, even on fast balls. What would be good way to adjust his timimg problem?
How long has he been having this problem?
How old is your son?
Did the problem coincide with moving to the big field (if he is at an age where the field size stepped up)?
Has he been working on changing his mechanics?
Does he work with a hitting coach?
Has he recently gone through a growth spurt?
Has he been doing strength training?
Can you post a clip of his hitting?
Has his vision been checked lately?
Has he changed the level of competitiveness at which he plays (e.g., did the problem begin at a time where he started seeing consistently faster pitching?)?
To see a swing with the desired "early batspeed", see the YAZ clip here:
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8291034941/m/1311023481/p/1
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8291034941/m/1311023481/p/1
Sounds like a bat drag/quickness issue...thus he may be starting his swing early on all pitches based on the time he feels he needs to get the barrell into the hitting zone.
He has had this problem for a year or so. It seems worse this fall.
He is 18 years old. Freshman in college
He said he is working on using is bottom half more.
He took lessons a couple of years ago.
No growth spurt. 5'8" 155lbs, 90mph swing
No strength training until winter.
He has had is vision checked.
I will try to get a clip of his present swing this weekend.
He is 18 years old. Freshman in college
He said he is working on using is bottom half more.
He took lessons a couple of years ago.
No growth spurt. 5'8" 155lbs, 90mph swing
No strength training until winter.
He has had is vision checked.
I will try to get a clip of his present swing this weekend.
DD, you have a pm.
DD,
There are elements of truth in a lot of the posts but here are my two cents.
A kid that size with 90 mph bat speed is doing pretty well. That leads me to my first thought; he probably has no separation.
This is an oversimplification but basically the hands stay back slightly behind as the hips begin their rotation.
However, think it through, if the hands, hips and legs fire perfectly forward at the same time there is little room for adjustment to a pitch that is slower or faster than the timing dictated by the "all forward" swing. It would be far better (notice I didn't say ideal or even proper) to open the hips up too soon while the hands are slightly back than it would be to try and time the rotation and hands to fire forward at the same time to hit the ball.
There's more to it than that but that, to me, is the basic problem.
Also, (and this will set some posters off) Ted Williams claimed that no hitter can adequately cover both halves of the plate. Meaning that once mechanical issues are resolved, it is still darned hard to be ready for all pitches in all locations at all times. You may know more than me about hitting folks, but you don't know more than Williams.
He firmly believed that hitting is 50% physical and 50% mental. Anticipating a pitch coming into a zone is not a bad thing. It's educated guessing and it works.
Many of us seem to think that what works for one level of ball will work for all levels. Ask a hitting coach in an mlb organization about "squishing the bug" and see what kind of response you get.
If a kid plays at a high school level that rarely sees a pitch above 85 mph it isn't too hard to make adjustments. As the speed and variety of pitches increase at higher levels, however, adjustments in mechanics and thinking have to be made to be successful.
How many of us could write about kids that were .400 or .500 hitters in high school but couldn't hit .200 at the next level?
There are elements of truth in a lot of the posts but here are my two cents.
A kid that size with 90 mph bat speed is doing pretty well. That leads me to my first thought; he probably has no separation.
This is an oversimplification but basically the hands stay back slightly behind as the hips begin their rotation.
However, think it through, if the hands, hips and legs fire perfectly forward at the same time there is little room for adjustment to a pitch that is slower or faster than the timing dictated by the "all forward" swing. It would be far better (notice I didn't say ideal or even proper) to open the hips up too soon while the hands are slightly back than it would be to try and time the rotation and hands to fire forward at the same time to hit the ball.
There's more to it than that but that, to me, is the basic problem.
Also, (and this will set some posters off) Ted Williams claimed that no hitter can adequately cover both halves of the plate. Meaning that once mechanical issues are resolved, it is still darned hard to be ready for all pitches in all locations at all times. You may know more than me about hitting folks, but you don't know more than Williams.
He firmly believed that hitting is 50% physical and 50% mental. Anticipating a pitch coming into a zone is not a bad thing. It's educated guessing and it works.
Many of us seem to think that what works for one level of ball will work for all levels. Ask a hitting coach in an mlb organization about "squishing the bug" and see what kind of response you get.
If a kid plays at a high school level that rarely sees a pitch above 85 mph it isn't too hard to make adjustments. As the speed and variety of pitches increase at higher levels, however, adjustments in mechanics and thinking have to be made to be successful.
How many of us could write about kids that were .400 or .500 hitters in high school but couldn't hit .200 at the next level?
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
I have.
No you haven't. Not if you continue to believe this...
quote:You assert that it is mechanics.
Please read the thread.
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
However, for this poster, who clearly can't wait, he clearly does not have a high level swing.
Again, that's assuming his swing isn't new.
You occasinally throw out the caveat about "new mechanics", but in the great bulk of your posts assume there is a mechanical problem. And that is where the thrust of your posts is aimed. You grossly failed to ask any pertinent questions before attempting to address the poster's question.
As stated before, the thread has been read.
Finally.
If in fact the hitter has recently developed new and improved mechanics, that allow him to develop early batspeed and early quickness, so that he can now hit a pitch deep in the zone with authority, then and only then is timing the issue in not being able to wait. At that time, he has new mechanics with old timing. And, the mechanics are not the problem. His brain has to learn that a new swing is in use and the "go" signal must come at a different time.
I have already spelled out a plan for that.
In the absence of that, the problem is his mechanics.
If in fact the hitter has recently developed new and improved mechanics, that allow him to develop early batspeed and early quickness, so that he can now hit a pitch deep in the zone with authority, then and only then is timing the issue in not being able to wait. At that time, he has new mechanics with old timing. And, the mechanics are not the problem. His brain has to learn that a new swing is in use and the "go" signal must come at a different time.
I have already spelled out a plan for that.
In the absence of that, the problem is his mechanics.
You have ignored the mental aspect.
You have not addressed the possibility of moving up to a level where the pitching is improved.
Keep trying.
You have not addressed the possibility of moving up to a level where the pitching is improved.
Keep trying.
You forgot the height of the grass and the wind.
Didn't forget them, they were not pertinent. The questions I have posed are pertinent. Apparently you just can't understand the difference.
Try harder.
Try harder.
Yeah.........and he moved up to a new level where the pitching was better and his "waiting" problem was mental.
Please.
Need a napkin?
Please.
Need a napkin?
Just what this board needed, another yankee whose rudeness is exceeded only by his arrogance. {Not to even mention ignorance.}
Players who are too uptight at the plate can (please note - "can", not "always will") have problems pulling the trigger to soon. Yes, even those players with beautiful mechanics can experience this. Get them to relax (e.g., get their confidence up) and the problem can be solved. Not always the case, but happens enough to take note of.
Try much harder...
Players who are too uptight at the plate can (please note - "can", not "always will") have problems pulling the trigger to soon. Yes, even those players with beautiful mechanics can experience this. Get them to relax (e.g., get their confidence up) and the problem can be solved. Not always the case, but happens enough to take note of.
Try much harder...
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...
You and Blue Dog really crack me up.
Just wipe the egg off your face and move on.
You and Blue Dog really crack me up.
Just wipe the egg off your face and move on.
No egg here. Perhaps you have eggsta in your eyes, causing you to think you see it elsewhere.
Looks like you have been shaken but not stirred.
Try to educate yourself before trying to help others.
Keep ignoring the mental aspects of the game. You'll make a great coach.
Looks like you have been shaken but not stirred.
Try to educate yourself before trying to help others.
Keep ignoring the mental aspects of the game. You'll make a great coach.
Texan,
I think you will find that many of the folks who talk about the swing in scientific terms - (and who attempt to describe every aspect of the swing) - dont have a clue about the mental aspect of the game - or its importance.
It isnt something they can quantify - or measure - and thus - they just leave it completely out of the equation.
What is most interesting IMO - is that without the correct mental approach - all the great mechanics in the world will still leave you squarely in palookaville. LOL
I think you will find that many of the folks who talk about the swing in scientific terms - (and who attempt to describe every aspect of the swing) - dont have a clue about the mental aspect of the game - or its importance.
It isnt something they can quantify - or measure - and thus - they just leave it completely out of the equation.
What is most interesting IMO - is that without the correct mental approach - all the great mechanics in the world will still leave you squarely in palookaville. LOL
The great Martini: The eggspert who always knows eggsactly what is wrong. And his manners are eggslempary, an eggsample to all. He just seems a little hard boiled. His baseball knowledge eggstraordinary, just ask him. But is he prone to eggsagerration? Guess he would be eggstatic if he ever got something right. He tends to eggnore important things, considering them just eggstinuating circumstances. But what do you eggspect? Guess he doesn't have to worry about anyone eggspropriating his "ideas", since they are never quite hatched.
Well, this is getting eggscruciating, so time to quit before it scrambles his brain any worse.
Well, this is getting eggscruciating, so time to quit before it scrambles his brain any worse.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
What is most interesting IMO - is that without the correct mental approach - all the great mechanics in the world will still leave you squarely in palookaville. LOL
Truer words have never been spoken.
As was once said: "Hitting may be 75% mechanics, but it is 95% confidence."
Texan,
I tend to read and watch alot - and then think about what I have read and seen. Hopefully - I take a few things away from it all if Im lucky every so often.
That is what I do here - you get a good point here and a good point there once in a while. Sometimes more than one at a time LOL. You also get a bunch of circular nonsense and word games. I find that stuff completely useless.
I think the ones that offer advice on the ONLY way to hit have the most limited understanding of the game - and the act of hitting in a real game. Probably because they have never done it themselves. IMO.
Personally - I really like what bbscout has to say about hitting - because I can understand what he is saying - and it all makes sense. And much of it is corroborated by what I have seen the last 40 years or so.
I also believe it is reasonable to study what Ted Williams had to say about hitting - before "studying" an anonymous poster on a message board LOL
But even with some of the vitriolic posts - occasionally there is something of value in those too.
So its worth reading. IMO.
I tend to read and watch alot - and then think about what I have read and seen. Hopefully - I take a few things away from it all if Im lucky every so often.
That is what I do here - you get a good point here and a good point there once in a while. Sometimes more than one at a time LOL. You also get a bunch of circular nonsense and word games. I find that stuff completely useless.
I think the ones that offer advice on the ONLY way to hit have the most limited understanding of the game - and the act of hitting in a real game. Probably because they have never done it themselves. IMO.
Personally - I really like what bbscout has to say about hitting - because I can understand what he is saying - and it all makes sense. And much of it is corroborated by what I have seen the last 40 years or so.
I also believe it is reasonable to study what Ted Williams had to say about hitting - before "studying" an anonymous poster on a message board LOL
But even with some of the vitriolic posts - occasionally there is something of value in those too.
So its worth reading. IMO.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
I tend to read and watch alot - and then think about what I have read and seen.
Would that more would follow your example. It's called being a student of the game. The most knowledgeable baseball folks I have been around have all been students of the game.
The pitching is not any better/faster than he has seen in High School or summer ball.
I did say that he was using his lower half more. Could that be enough to constitute a "new swing" and further mess his timing up?
I did say that he was using his lower half more. Could that be enough to constitute a "new swing" and further mess his timing up?
It is possible that he is generating more batspeed by better using his hips.
quote:Hitting may be 75% mechanics, but it is 95% confidence."
95% MENTAL
You can have all the confidence in the world and still turn YOUR son into a pitcher!
When somebody cannot " wait" it is usually their mechanics. THey usually step and pull from their lead shoulder and leave the barrel behind. IOWs they are not turning the hitting part of the bat through the zone with their body turn.
This mechanism is so slow that kids start way to early and never develop that oppo pop. YOu are smart to see this right now because you will not fix it with waiting longer.
Even when he waits longer he doesn't have the swing to hit that middle away pitch.
You must be
1. turing the barrel around the hands at swing initiation
2. have an inside / out swing path
3. feel the top hand " whip" effortlessly in the swing
You cannot just connect and turn the body ( even if done properly) and get barrel to release in the zone. The harder you try the further behind you leave barrel and the more you drag the lead arm across the chest.
The outside part of the plate will become a
" black hole" of call strikes.
Been there done that. You will get to bat with a lot of 0-2 counts.
Read what Jack Mankin wrote after studying 1000s of swings. As always make up your own mind about this
"As the shoulders start to rotate, most hitters have the tendency to push forward with the palm of the top-hand. Pushing the top-hand forward on the handle does not cause the hat-head to accelerate rearward in sync with shoulder rotation. The batter winds up with the shoulders fully rotated, but the bat is lagging back 40 to 90 degrees from contact"
This mechanism is so slow that kids start way to early and never develop that oppo pop. YOu are smart to see this right now because you will not fix it with waiting longer.
Even when he waits longer he doesn't have the swing to hit that middle away pitch.
You must be
1. turing the barrel around the hands at swing initiation
2. have an inside / out swing path
3. feel the top hand " whip" effortlessly in the swing
You cannot just connect and turn the body ( even if done properly) and get barrel to release in the zone. The harder you try the further behind you leave barrel and the more you drag the lead arm across the chest.
The outside part of the plate will become a
" black hole" of call strikes.
Been there done that. You will get to bat with a lot of 0-2 counts.
Read what Jack Mankin wrote after studying 1000s of swings. As always make up your own mind about this
"As the shoulders start to rotate, most hitters have the tendency to push forward with the palm of the top-hand. Pushing the top-hand forward on the handle does not cause the hat-head to accelerate rearward in sync with shoulder rotation. The batter winds up with the shoulders fully rotated, but the bat is lagging back 40 to 90 degrees from contact"
quote:Originally posted by Vance34:quote:Hitting may be 75% mechanics, but it is 95% confidence."
95% MENTAL
You can have all the confidence in the world and still turn YOUR son into a pitcher!
Confidence - of the hitter.
It doesn't make any difference what my confidence may be or that of any coach's. What matters is the hitter's confidence. Thought that would be obvious.
Dirt Digger,
I guess I'm assuming that timing is the problem because you say it is. It would be interesting in seeing a clip because it could have something to do with his hand path.
He might benefit from you sitting behind a "L" screen 15' in front of him and toss a few buckets of balls on the outside corner while he works going opposite field. Watch his hands, is he getting inside the ball or getting around everything?
I guess I'm assuming that timing is the problem because you say it is. It would be interesting in seeing a clip because it could have something to do with his hand path.
He might benefit from you sitting behind a "L" screen 15' in front of him and toss a few buckets of balls on the outside corner while he works going opposite field. Watch his hands, is he getting inside the ball or getting around everything?
