"How travel baseball has hurt player work ethic and attitude"

Interesting. Travel baseball is good, it's parents allowing kids to break commitments when they don't get what they want that hurts the player.

JMO.

Dedication and work ethic are not hurt by travel ball, those characteristics and others are simply revealed.

quote:

Riding the bench has always played a major role in sports. But travel baseball has all but eliminated that. As long as you know how to write a check you can start every game. Every player needs a different kind of check though at some point in this game - a reality check - to ensure his work ethic and attitude are in the right place as he strives to accomplish something in this game.

Travel ball has diminished some of the problems parents have like dealing with coaches that won't favor their child but at some point the kid has to have talent. Even with some talent every kid will become "exposed" at some point. At some point, no amount of money can buy continued play. If you have money, you can participate longer for awhile. All that money spent for cool uniforms, hotel rooms, travel expenses, weekend road trips, tournaments, indoor practice facilities, top priced equipment, etc. really needs no justification to others.

The one thing that can't be purchased is desire. You can't buy the proper attitude or work ethic. Kids aren't stupid. They know what you are spending. They know that they don't have to earn it. Travel ball in and of itself isn't harmful. There are great memories created. We all purchase our brand of happiness with every dime we spend. However, there are still baseball experiences that can be had for little or no money. These experiences can be as fulfilling as the travel ball gig. It has been this way forever. It will all sort itself out in the end, when your son becomes "exposed." Hopefully the love of the game will still smolder somewhere in that heart of his and life lessons will play out for many many years.

I'm with floridafan. I don't think a year on the bench is going to completely turn around a kid's attitude. Most likely switching teams will just keep the kid playing where he might have quit rather than play behind someone who is better.

quote:

Riding the bench has always played a major role in sports.

When I read this, I found myself thinking of the line in Caddyshack when the judge said "the world needs ditch diggers too."

I like some of the author's stuff, but I think he's off base on this one. Couple things; I have yet to see a team put together where a player (past 12u, anyway) paid his way onto a prime starting spot he didn't deserve. Has it probably happened in greater or lesser circumstances? I guess it probably has, but I suspect that the other ballplayers and coaches might have SOME influence.

In my opinion, while you can learn some of the game riding the pine, I think few ballplayers are going to hang around when they can find a team so that they can prove what they can do. My experience is that these guys are self-starters and are moving so that they can prove they can get the job done. These aren't the guys waiting for mommy or daddy to write a check so they can say they played "up the middle."

"Basically, if a player is unhappy these days, he just goes to where he is happy - never getting that reality check that he really isn't that good and he needs to work hard(er)."

I just don't see this as cause and effect; I mean, flip it around, players can avoid working harder by moving to a different team? No, if you don't want to work, you're done. That's baseball, no matter the team.

Not every players goal is to play in the major leagues or college.
Baseball is a game and some kids play it for fun, why not go to team that allows you to play.. Does the sport have to always be some sort of lesson in life??

I think the logic might not be quite there, but I think I know what he means.

Look, I think there are two entirely seperate aspects (he might be confusing them) and one is served in one venue and one in another.

Every kid should play every inning, every summer imho. Whatever it takes to play, they should play. Whether that be the lowest rec league, legion team, travel team, showcase team, or select team or whatever you want to call it. The whole idea at the youth level is to play the game so I think every kid ought to go find that place for themselves.

At about 9th grade however, things change in one respect during the school season (summer remains similar). There, kids will be asked to make a freshmen team or higher and they are often competing against other kids from other travel teams. It is about desire and heart at that point. The first time a kid may be asked to go out and beat out a better player if they ever want to see the playing field. As Coach May has said, competition is the ingredient that forges steel.

Travel ball/summer ball teaches kids how to play the game. High school ball teaches kids how to compete. Both are equally important imho.

I could buy his theory for pre-highschool but from there on in the large highschools playing time is earned with plenty of reality checks in the winning programs. As for DI players overestimating their ability it takes two. The coach recruiting him and the players desire to reach for his highest opportunity. I see nothing wrong with some " free agency " in college. The five years to play four goes fast enough and both parties deserve the chance to find out. Also, dropping down to a " quality DII " is no guarantee either.

I gathered what the author was talking about was that there are so many travel teams now, that any kid at any talent level can get on some team and start and even get on some team and be the star. Then once he gets to HS, both he and his parents are in a position where they are so enamored with his "starting spot", they think he is the best player ever and should be starting varsity. They don't realize the real talent that is out there and are disillusioned with the HS coach and program because they don't see how good their son is.

I have seen this on more than one occasion. Lower level, pre-HS travel teams that play other low level teams sometimes don't realize what is actually out there. When they get to HS, where it is truly a competitive environment, they just don't know how to deal with it.

I agree with bballman.

There are so many programs out there for a kid to play travel ball where back in the day you really had to be a special player. As it is, if their kid isn't as good as the parent believes, then it's real simple, the dad starts his own team and Johnny plays every inning.

I have no beef with the dad who does it to try and help his kid progress. I've seen and played with late bloomers, so that's not the problem. The problem arises when the dads that swear their kid is travel-caliber and they get to JHS or JV level and they realize he's not going to be the next Jeter.

Then it's "everyone elses fault" or "they just don't know how good my kid is". As mentioned here, that's when reality kicks in and the kid's (or really the dad's(?)" dream ends.

There are some kids cut for travel-caliber ball and others that simply aren't. I just don't see the need to pursue the delusional and not just accept where your kid is and let him do have fun. If he's good enough to play upper-caliber ball, then great, and if he's not, there's nothing wrong with in-house or other recreational ball more suited to his skill-set.

I read the article and I certainly don't agree with it. How has not playing ever helped any player? Travel is all about finding the right fit where you can play, kinda like finding a college program that is right for your kid.

Sitting the bench has never helped any player get better. Unless his goal is to be a manager.

The author was a 4 yr starter at a tremendous D1. That means he never sat bench and chased foul balls...
Kids need to be on teams they can play on and get their hacks, there will probably be a bench in their future (hs or college) so there's no need to rush it.

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Welcome aboard the HSBBW InBetweenHop.

Nice input on your very first post. Thanks.




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Basically, if a player is unhappy these days, he just goes to where he is happy - never getting that reality check that he really isn't that good and he needs to work hard(er).

I have had conversations with some parents who spend money for an elite travel, or whatever name the team has and they complain they spent time and money to go somewhere and their kid gets 2 at bats on a trip. I spent all that money etc etc . On the other hand I talked to a father whose kid got cut from the high school team and came out a year lat er and made it.

Some great comments above. I absolutely agree that there are a lot of players that don't realize the depth of the pool they are in, but I think they need to be somewhere where the game will teach them that. The players that move to another team don't believe the game is more than they can handle. If the game teaches them that, they may or may not move again, but they have the opportunity to find out. Contrary to the article, I think that that is a good thing.

Now, there is an argument that the explosion in travel ball has done its part to minimize the number of young folks playing baseball in this country overall (basically, the only way to be successful is to play it ten months a year). THAT is a conversation I'd like to have....

Travel ball isn't the cause of the attitude in the article. The parents are the cause of the attitude. Travel ball only allows the attitude to play out.

It's ironic I found this post. I'm sitting in Panera. I just listened to two mothers complaining their son's were always all-stars until the high school coach got a hold of them. Neither son made varsity as a sophomore.

The author has added a part 2, or rather explained what exactly he meant the first time.

quote:

I just listened to two mothers complaining their son's were always all-stars until the high school coach got a hold of them. Neither son made varsity as a sophomore.

Yes it is those high school coaches. they have no idea what they are doing.

Two sides to every story. Some places are just not a good fit and never will be to some talented players. Some can't buy a break and some are handed them.

"Find coaches to play for have the ability to help you improve your weaknesses and who can see and appreciate what you “can do” versus focusing on what you “can't do.”



http://www.prospectwire.com/pw...layers-can-do-part-1


not always easy on the first try.

I have seen my fair share of different travel teams over the years traveling around and playing with a myriad of different talent and such. What I have generally noticed is that just like rec ball, travel teams have their certain kids who think they are "all that" and believe that they don't really have to work at it. Usually, it is the parents that brainwash their kids into believeing they are the next Jeter and some think that it just comes "naturally" and don't really have to work at it.

But, I disagree with the general attitude of the article posted. Travel ball is competetive. All too often the coaches are more concerned with getting their kids playing spots and time and winning at any cost besides their own kid. Moving from one travel team to another is about finding the right fit with players, talent level, and coaching. I have moved my kid from 2 separate travel teams because of bad coaching and lack of incentive to be better by the players in general. When i moved son off one team I told the coach why and how we wanted to find a team a little more committed. He agreed and we parted under good terms.

My son played rec ball up through his 12th year. It finally got to the point where it was not a good situation because the talent was just not there and it was hurting his ability to play and compete and saty on the cutting edge. Seeing pitcher after pitcher who posed no challenge to son got him into the habit of playing too lazy. He also played travel ball during those years. We finally moved just to travel ball and he has excelled there. I also believe it is the sole reason why he made the varsity team as a freshman and is a regualar everyday starter. Thanks all to travel ball!

I think the author is wrong. What good does it do any player to sit the bench rather than taking their hacks. Baseball is a game of reps. If a player goes on Team A and they are a great team but he rarely plays, Team B is a .500 team where he gets a starting spot and stays in the game, where would the kid rather play? Thats a no brainer. For the author to think the subject is surrounded by conflict is wrong. Many a coach when apprached by player & parent and asked if they can leave to another team to get more playing time, is very understood by all parties.
Sounds like just another rip on travel ball.

Kids need to play coming up in the game. They also need to learn what it means to work to get better when not actually playing games. They also need to learn that someone has to sit the bench. They also need to learn what a team player is. They also need to learn if they don't want to sit the bench more than the other players they better work towards that goal. There comes a time in the game where you simply can not pay for play. There comes a time in the game where performance is going to be the only thing that is going to count.

Sometimes the player and parents of the player who have always been in the line up struggle with the fact that this point and time actually comes. They show up at a HS game and their son is not in the line up. They have never watched a baseball game in their life where their son was not actually playing. They have never learned how to be team parents. The player has never gone to the park and worked just as hard as everyone else only to find himself sitting the bench during a game. He has never learned how to be a team player.

Oh no! It has to be someone's fault. Something has had to go wrong here. I know someone has to sit the bench but not my son. He has always played.

There was a time when you tried out for the team and if you were not good enough you got cut. There was a time when if you were not one of the better players you had to learn how to work your way into the line up somehow. You had to learn to carve out a niche for yourself. You had to battle. Now that time only comes when players reach the HS ranks. After all that money spent on travel ball and traveling around the country playing games and now my son is sitting the bench!

I believe kids need to play. I don't believe they need to wait until they are 15 and in HS to learn what it feels like to have to earn it. I don't believe they have to play every inning of every game and be set up in situations where they never have to learn what it takes to overcome obstacles in the game. The more competition they have growing up in the game to get in a line up and stay in a line up the better they will be for it down the road.

What we have now in many cases are kids who have paid a certain amount of money and are given a role and its always been that way for them and the parents. When those rules change its not only the player who struggles with this concept its the parents of that player as well in many cases.

I like the idea of kids all getting equal time up the age of around 12 years old. Then I like the idea of them having to earn their playing time. That might actually require them to work a little harder to get it. It might actually require them to sit the bench from time to time. That might actually motivate them to get better and work on their game. It also might give them a better understanding of how to treat those that are not in the line up and how to appreciate it when they are.

"I know someone has to sit the bench and that's ok. As long as its not my son."

Put your kid in situations where he has to compete to get on the field before he has to compete to make a team. You will be doing him a big favor in the long run. Parents don't want to see their child on the bench. Players don't want to be on the bench. By putting him in situations where he never has to worry about it in some cases you are making sure he will down the road. JMHO

I look back on the team that my son was invited to play on that traveled to Jupiter for the Junior Olympics. He joined a team that had been together for years made up of players from Tampa, we lived 80 miles away in Ocala, and (we found out after the fact) was brought on to jump start the middle infield that was prone to being too secure in their positions. Needless to say he was not well liked, and for the first time in his life spent a significant amount of time on the bench. When he had his chance he gave it all he had, but it was not a position he ever wanted to be in again. And it was interesting for us as parents as well. We did not anticipate spending a week in Jupiter and seeing our son play an inning here or there or get subbed in after a player had a bad attitude. We were so naive back then we went through all the hoops to get his passport.
In hindsight it was a great lesson for us all (in reality we all knew there would be limited playing time, just did not fully appreciate how limited, lol). He has not sat much since, but he did develop character from his experience, that he carries to this day. He remembers that tournament as a difficult one to deal with, but deal with it he did as an enthusiastic team player cheering and encouraging his teammates.

Is travel ball really a problem such as is posted though? I tend to think the problem is worse for rec ball kids. Rec ball produces players that are decent and sometimes even great players. What happens though is that these rec ball kids- the studs on those teams have always batted .500, been in the starting line up, and played the desirable positions. They basically have never really sat in their lives on the bench either. Then when they get to HS and tryout and make the team they are shocked that they barely made the Freshman or JV team and then end up sitting on the bench every inning pretty much for the whole season while little Johnny who was on the travel team gets to play everyday. For the parents this is a shocker and they can't understand why their kid is even on the team if he never gets to play.

From what I have gathered, pretty much every HS team wants to win. They are not really concerned about player development for the reserve players but more concerned for the player development of the everyday players. The best players will always get the playing time plain and simple. Talent has more to do with it than anything else. Work ethic often goes hand in hand with talent. Needless to say, the travel ball kids usually have the better work ethic because they have grown up playing at a higher level of committment than ordinary rec ball. Rec ball for the most part does not breed good habits or work ethics. I used to coach rec ball and finally gave it up altogether because of the general attitude and work ethic of players of that caliber in general. Most of the good players at that level do not want to move up to travel ball because they "shine" at the rec ball level. What it really comes down to is they do not want to improve their work ethic and actually be challenged by travel ball competetiveness and so they do not improve as well as they could have.

When they finally get to HS they find themselves riding the pine most of the season. We all know that travel ball has it's negatives but the positives way outweigh the negatives. Perhaps travel ball is different in other parts of the country but in my neck of the woods if you can't cut it in travel ball you won't play even if you pay.

Two comments.
First -We actually worried about son never sitting the bench and never being challenged to get playing time. In our area it was not likely to happen - so we accepted a couple invitations for him to fill in on some much older teams for a game here or there. He sat the bench some - learned he did not like it - worked harder - and gained a new appreciation for the number 11 - 14 guys on his travel team!

Second - if you have no passion for baseball because you are not a starter - you do not really have a passion for baseball - just a passion for spotlight and praise - thats quite a problem.

Yes Really spot on

Ginger, dont confuse passion and talent and I have had some really hard working bad ball players
and others who were drafted and as lazy as they get.
My last comment would be that in my parts there are HS coaches that Coach the game simply for the reason that they truely enjoy the development of every player. The development of a team.

I coach at a High School where the avereage ACT is 27. something, our talent is limited but our work ethic and hustle can always be. Even the bottom end guy,,,

I also coach a Summer team that has had a couple kids move on. I geuss in my case I have seen kids with lesser talent out work the kids with more talent.

Passion and work ethic for me rather than talent and work ethic..

Not argueing , just saying

I see this misconception very often. Coach May is right on (as usual!) but in our area, this couldn't be more accurate!

I think there’s a big difference between learning that someone needs to sit and being the kid who sits most all the time. IMO, it’s one of those rich get richer things. Those that play are more likely to get better than those who sit on the bench. They are more likely to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. They will gain more experience in reacting to situations as they happen.
I don’t think anyone believes that baseball players don’t benefit from actually playing the game. That is what it’s all about to baseball players. That is why they are called baseball “players”.

That said, I think sitting on the bench is something every player needs to experience. It builds character and can make the right player hungry. However, it’s also one of the main reasons young kids quit the game before they have had a chance to develop. It's also more "fun" to play! Often coaches use "benching" as a form of punishment. If for some it is punishment to sit, how does the kid sitting all the time feel about it?

A young kid sitting on the bench for one of the top 14U travel teams in the country might be good enough to be on the field for the 10th or 20th best team in the country. I don’t see it as a money spent thing. Even if both teams were fully sponsored and it didn’t cost the player any money to play on either team, I could understand why someone would choose to play rather than sit. At the same time, we all know someone has to sit.

At some point, most players will experience sitting. Those able to deal with that are usually well respected by coaches and teammates. Those who can’t deal with it either quit or are told to leave. IMO, this is not a process that should take place any earlier than necessary. Guess I’m saying it’s a good thing to experience sitting on the bench (for many reasons), but it’s a better thing to be on the field (for development).

Professional baseball may not be perfect, but they figured this out many years ago. Baseball players need to play! Those they are most interested in developing (have the most invested in) play, while the bench is loaded with the extra guys. Once in a while an extra guy gets his chance and makes the most of it and becomes someone that the club gets more interested in. But usually these extra guys end up released or they decide to move on in life. Then there are those who make the Big Leagues and there they learn to sit. But those guys are paid very well to sit on the bench. For the most part, the organization prefers to keep young players in the minor leagues where they are out there playing every day rather than sitting on the bench on the Big League team all year. In other words they understand the importance of playing.

Some might think it makes no sense to use professional baseball as an example. Point is… If the highest level believes playing is so important for development, why would it be any different for the lowest level or the levels in between? Granted much can be learned sitting on the bench. But baseball players are developed on the field. Some of both might be worthwhile.

IMO this also relates to college decisions. If someone is most interested in developing their playing ability for future opportunities, they should strongly consider how often they will be in the games. In other words… what is the level or the program where I am most likely to play. There actually are some that would rather sit at the power program than play at a lesser profile program. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what they want. In fact, those guys can be a great asset and are usually very well liked by their teammates. But college coaches recruit players they want on the field, playing in the games.

These are just my opinions. Some will agree, some will disagree. Very good points by everyone, good discussion!

Who was it - Clint Hurdle? - who said something to the effect:

"In baseball, there are those that are humble and those that soon will be"

Probably not exact, but nonetheless, baseball is incredibly humbling at times and good players need to learn that. Sitting the bench often teaches humility, among a number of lessons.

By the way...it's often parents who need to learn the lessons, not the players.

I think it was Clint who said "There are two kinds of people in this game. Those that are humble and those that are about to be."

Jerry you make some great points. And every post has been very good imo. In HS I can not recruit. Well at let me just say I do not recruit. I have to take what I get and then make the very most of it in order to build a winning program. And the other side of that is I want to help every young man become the best player he can IF he has the desire to get there.

It is very important to develop all of your players because those guys on the bench most of the time one day may be the guys on the field most of the time. And you just never know whats going to happen to a kid during the HS years. I have had kids who could not get many innings as Fresh or Sophs on JV to being our best players as Sr's. The fact is the kids that get most of the attention and individual time are the ones that need it the most. The ones that are really good understand how to do their own cage work. They know how to work. They have developed a great work ethic. They dont get as much individual time from the coaching staff because they don't need as much as the others.

Just because your on the bench most of the time does not mean you will be on the bench most of the time down the road. It just means your going to have to get better. Prepare for your opportunities. And then take advantage of them. There is a big difference - Waiting for your opportunities vs Prepareing for your opportunities.

If your not playing much make sure your in a situation where you are in the summer. Make sure your preparing for opportunities in the off season. What you do in the off season will determine what you can do during the season. What sitting the bench does is force a player to make decisions. Your either going to do something about it to get on the field. Or your going to decide its not worth it and you move on. And the fact is some kids "best" is good enough to earn this role player status. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone can not be a starter. The problem is some people simply dont believe that is good enough. And many times its the people that dont wear a uniform and plant negative seeds in the persons mind that their best is not good enough.

Great posts I enjoy hearing everyone's opinion.

Coach May,

I don't disagree a bit with anything you have said. It all makes a lot of sense.

Guess I'm referring more to the travel ball subject. Knowing that it takes a juggling act at times to get most everyone sufficient playing time, someone has to sit out or we have no reserves.

I would rather have my son (who would be in the 40 and Under division) play the game. I also think it's better to just be one of those who are "playing" than to be the team superstar. It's hard when your the best, you need competition.

But rather than being a permanent bench figure, I would recommend he find a different team where he actually gets to play a lot and get better, provided it didn't cost me very much money. That way his future will have more possibilities and he might develop into a real good player by the time he is 50! Besides, I won't have to go to those games and watch him sit on the bench all the time. Don't need to... I get to see him sitting on his azz nearly every day.

Anyway, I think the article that started this discussion was very good. Agree or not, it created a lot of interest and stimulated a lot of great discussion.

quote:

If your not playing much make sure your in a situation where you are in the summer.

I think Coach May said to find a travel team where you can get playing time.

The travel team I ran through 14u played at a fairly high, but not the highest level of competition by any means and we tried to keep the number of players such that everyone got plenty of playing time. Sometimes that resulted in scrambling to find enough players for a given tournament and having to play some kids out of position but that was preferable to having players sit any more than necessary.

We tried to get the best players we could but the one time we got a player (who left the pay to play team he was on after some parents took it over to get out of paying) who belonged at a higher level of competition than we were playing at we said we'd be happy to have him play with us and although he would have helped us be more competitive in the open tournaments we suggested that he would have no problem finding a stronger team than ours to play on. They found a stronger team for him and it worked for him and it worked for the kids we had quite a few of whom are playing in college now. The kid who we "turned down" was a first rounder in the most recent draft. We did end up picking up another kid who wasn't quite as talented from that pay to play team and ended up beating them in the semi's of our last tournament.

There are a lot of levels of travel teams and if a player wanted to sit on a high level team rather than play against a bit weaker competition that's their choice but not one I'd recommend.

Probably the most interesting thing was one parent who was absolutely honest with us that their kid was going to play on another team because they had a professional ballplayer coaching it and figured he'd get better competition. The parent said he hoped his son could still play with us when we needed him but understood that the regulars would get priority for playing time. Another parent in the exact same situation tried to hide what was happening from us so that her son would be the starter whenever he "deigned" to play with us. Why was it the exact same situation? Because it was only one player and the dad was telling us straight while the mom was lying to us about why the kid wasn't playing with us in some tournaments.

This has been a good thought provoking discussion.

The author has clarified his intentions for the reasons he wrote the article in the second part
In some ways I do not agree and other ways I do, definetly agree playing only makes you better at the game but you never really know how much better you could be if you never sat and learned that you need to work harder to play everyday.

I think using pro ball is a perfect example, the late round pick sits on the bench and watches the earlier picked guys in every game, decides, not me, and he does what he can to get better to be in the game everyday. You see that happening all of the time in MLB. And yes we all agree sometimes you just work like a dog but you don't see results, but I think 70% (at least) of the time you will.

How many times have we heard about the stud guy who never sat in HS then gets to college and then has to sit. Instead of working harder to now improve, he quits and goes somewhere else to play. Is that always the answer? That's what I get out of the article.

One aspect of this that has not been addressed (I don't think) is playing position.

My guy played on a team where he was the youngest, and earned his spot when he was put in and made a number of diving catches in the outfield. He stayed in the outfield with that team until they decided to split the program and he stayed down and moved to 3rd. Eventually the team folded and he had to look for a team. That is when I found this site and posted about a player looking for a team. Good things happened and he got invited to play for a high caliber 18u Travel Team that did the WWBA and PG circut, but he made the team as an outfielder. He was a Shortstop/3B in Highschool starting varsity as a sophomore. So he joined the team and was turned into a Leftfielder, which is where the manager of the team felt he belonged and that was how he marketed him to colleges. After the 2nd season the team had issues and many people not associated with the team and maybe a coach who was, felt he belonged in the infield which is where he continued to play in Highschool.

So we made a move, it was not about playing time but it was because WE felt he belonged in the infield. Is that so bad?

So he found a new team where he played short and 3rd and never looked back. He played his first collegate year as a shortstop including over the summer, 2nd year as a 3rd baseman, and he continues to play the infield. He has never seen the outfield again unless shagging balls.

Now there is nothing wrong with the outfield, but we felt that his hands were too quick (transfering) to be in the outfield.

I think we were correct in leaving the program to find the position that we felt was most appropriate for him.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
The author was a 4 yr starter at a tremendous D1. That means he never sat bench and chased foul balls...
Kids need to be on teams they can play on and get their hacks, there will probably be a bench in their future (hs or college) so there's no need to rush it.

Right on. The author not exactly an authority on riding the pine. It's always easy for someone who never rode the bench or was always handed the starting job to tell somebody else it's ok to ride the pine until it happens to them, then their tune changes. Therefore, his credibility is in question. An article like this would be credible had it been written by somebody who paid his dues and had to work to earn his spot on the field.

The other huge assumption this writer makes is all coaches are created equal, and competition determines spots, not appointments.

Other than that, he has some merit with his view.

Today more than ever, for lots of good reasons, not just bad reasons, players are more mobile than ever, and better for it.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
One aspect of this that has not been addressed (I don't think) is playing position.

Ok everyone address this.

As a sophmore, the bat was taken out of son's hands, and he was a darn good hitter and still is. He was designated pitcher only for 2 years, HS and travel ball. He sat the bench (when he could have been getting better at hitting right). He was REALLY UNHAPPY. Shoukld we have gone to another team where he coul dhave hit and pitch?

What would you all have done?

Yes remember we are talking about the article written and bashing travel ball. I made my comment about a reason for playing baseball on travel is to PLAY. This wasnt brought up about high school or college.
The guy that wrote the article is wrong. Why because its always the misconception that the PARENTS or PLAYER cant handle sitting. Not always the case. Many many TRAVEL coaches have understood when a player wishes to go to another team for more playing time. Who in this world doesnt want a player to get more playing time than what he qualifies for on our team.
This particular player may sit alot in hs ball, well in travel or summer ball he is not restricted to one team, he has the FREEDOM to choose and who wouldnt choose a team where he gets more playing time.

What a great topic. I can valid points to all the posts. I think it all depends on each persons situation. From our eyes, the biggest issue we see are from the 14U/8th graders moving up. There are so many 14U teams that guys play all the time. Players never have to work to keep their positions. I see the benefit to getting all the reps but it does lead to some issues. They are never taught to compete for a job. When they get to HS they think they are the guy and soon realize they might not be.

When we have our program meeting we tell all the 15U parents that they struggle making the adjustment to the program due to son not being the "guy". The players don't have to much issue but oooh the parents do. We tell them if guys that are D1 commits, Aflac guys and future 1st rounders can sit on the the bench your freshman son should no problem working for his time. We will lose one or two freshman but after that very rarely do we lose a player. When we do lose a guy he usually bounces around to various teams and never settles in with a team.

I do think the article missed a bit. You really can't compare HS and travel. I also find it funny that the article is coming from a site the runs and promotes travel ball tournaments.

I'm not real sure how to really say this and I hope it comes out to where you understand my point. In case it doesn't let me preface this by saying I'm not criticizing travel baseball.

It doesn't matter what sport it is all athletes want to play. Why bust your butt in practice to just sit on the bench? Makes no sense because the goal is to play the game. So it makes sense there is a selfish aspect to all sports. But there is also that team element to most sports. A player has to find that balance between making sure he's looking out for himself and advancing towards his goal of playing the next level. But you also have to know when / how to put all that aside to fit into the team dynamics.

Summer baseball (and you can include fall as well) and spring (high school) ball serve two VASTLY different aspects in terms of development for a player. Summer baseball is the selfish time for the player to make sure they are taking care of their development. Find the team they can play on and be in the line up the majority of the time. High school ball is the time you work on developing your ability to fit in with a team.

The bench is a tricky place - you can learn quite a bit from there but the most important thing you have to learn is that you don't want to be there.

Travel baseball isn't hurting player work ethic or attitude - selfish people is what hurts work ethic and attitude. The majority of problems that arise with sitting on the bench happens in high school ball. Dad, mom and probably Jr are unhappy because Jr is on the bench for his HS team but they don't understand why. Maybe Jr plays on a summer team that's inferior to the HS one or maybe the HS has a player who's just better than him at his position - the reasons are infinite but the fact is Jr is on the bench. Well Jr now has a choice to make - gripe / complain or does he become a better teammate by supporting his teammates?

I know this - the griping and complaining kid will waste this opportunity to make himself a better OVERALL player by not fitting in. That's not summer ball's fault - that's his and his parent's fault.

Play spring HS ball to make you a better player due to drills from practice, play some games, play out of "your" position because that's what the team needs, learn to support others on your team, celebrate success with your buddies and let this be a great time to learn some humility.

Play summer travel ball to make you a better player by playing as much as you can, play at the position you feel is what's best for you, get exposure to the right people and make sure you are growing on the path that you want to take.

You combine those two and you have a great chance to improve as a complete baseball player. Not some nice guy who sits on the bench because he can't quite crack the line up or that jerk who only sees success as going 4 - 4 even if the team loses. It's ok to feel good for personal success in the 4 - 4 but it should still hurt if the team loses. Those who can't merge the two opportunities are the ones hurting work ethic and attitude.

Hope all this makes sense.

Great Post coach2709.

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While I am going to overstate this, I also think it is important to bring it up...

I think we are missing the bigger point here…

Yes, it is about player development in baseball...but no, it's not. It's bigger than that. The messages that players learn in baseball from the very beginning...are the lessons that they employ later in relationships and in work, and in life. Yes, both in baseball and in life, there are superstars, those who are at the top of the game from day one…but the reality is that the vast majority of us have to learn to start as support personnel, pay dues, stick it out and work our way up with guts and discipline and faith…and beat our way through an established pecking order.

In the journey of the two of mine..and in 30 years of working with ahletes and watching the changes...I now believe that we have done our kids a huge disservice...we have oversold them on empty self esteem, instant gratification, numerical and press results...and undersold character, delayed gratification, moral code and quiet internal strength and resilience...and I believe that those lessons are taught very early.

And OK, I agree that there is a great deal more wife and career flipping than ever before and I agree that there is a time and a place to jump, and I agree that there is value to learning on the field as a starter...but when we go overbaord are we teaching our sons and daughters to jump at the slightest sign of adversity? Not to ever settle for being a team player? Not to ever be patient? Not to delay gratification? If that is the case then I suggest that we not only undermine their confidence in their ability to overcome individually but we weaken the work ethic and values, the team play that built the success that we and our society are based upon.
.
OK, back to baseball…fine, keep your son ever moving seeking a perfect situation one with guaranteed playing time…and bet that will always be the case…teach him that it is an effective way to deal with baseball…but mark my words, at some point be it in HS, be it as a college freshman, be it in the minors…there is not going to be a “good” second option, and they are going to overcome someone in front of them, beat a difficult situation, fix something, develop a new skill…not simply go sideways. Are we going to say, “This is not fair, you’re getting jobbed!”…(like the endless threads here)...or “Sorry kid, but you’ve been here before and beat it. You have the skills to do so again, have at it.” And when he does exactly that, you’ll know that the game he loved has taught him a lesson infinitely more important than hitting, or fielding, or starting, or star-ing, or a pro contract…

…and you as a parent will know that he is going to do just fine, beyond baseball, in the bigger game…life.

44
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O44, I have such a great amount of respect for you. And, the knowledge behind that post is why.

It amazes me how articulate and well thought out some of the posts on this site are...just very good stuff. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
One aspect of this that has not been addressed (I don't think) is playing position.

Ok everyone address this.

As a sophmore, the bat was taken out of son's hands, and he was a darn good hitter and still is. He was designated pitcher only for 2 years, HS and travel ball. He sat the bench (when he could have been getting better at hitting right). He was REALLY UNHAPPY. Shoukld we have gone to another team where he coul dhave hit and pitch?

What would you all have done?

I believe that up until kids get into college they need to work on all aspects of their game including perfecting their offensive game. I would have taken my son and placed him on a different team based entirely off the coach apparently not understanding "where" the talent comes from. My son practiced with a team last fall and we then traveled out of state to a tournament where over the course of 3 days my son got in 4 innings of work. I complained to the coach after the tournament and he said that son got a good experience though. I said "no he didn't get any kind of good experience. He was offered to play on three other teams at different tournaments that weekend and they would of each loved to have had him knowing who he was and playing with him on other occasions. At this age and level it is all about "good experiences" coupled with "achieving ones goals". Being on a team that doesn't respect ones ability is a dis-service to that player. Kids these days have to really compete for the limited spots at the HS level and even moreso at the college level. My son had a personal goal in mind going into that tornament and never really had a chance to work on it. For son, it was a dissapointing end to a long season leaving on a somewhat sour note. The only bright side to all of that was that he was able to think about it all the long winter and helped him to understand that sometimes things just don't work out as planned.

If they can't get the play time that they need to try to achieve their goals and also have a good experience then they by all means should adjust and find the right team that will accomidate them. It's a proven fact that any good hitter will suffer if he isn't getting as many at-bats as other players. That also applies to any defensive position as well. Up until the college level players need to work hard to place themselves into the right situation that will better their odds- plain and simple. I am not saying that they shouldn't be "team players" I am just saying that playing for any team that doesn't achieve ones own personal goals is a waste of valuable time to that individual player and that player and parents alike need to adjust and move him onto a team that helps them personally. For some, it isn't about playing post HS and that is fine. But, for the better players, they really need to look at the game as a persoanl program that will lift them to higher plateaus after HS.

observer 44 - another awesome post.

Great stuff OB44, I often wonder if many of the folks today really read your posts and understand what you are trying to get across.

That's why GBM would have taken his son to a different team and we didn't. That's why he complained to the coach because he thought his son should have gotten in more time than he did and we never would have. Parents are just different these days (not necessarily the players) they want immediate gratification, if their players are not used more than they feel they should, their kid got screwed. This bypasses important lessons for your players to learn.
What is going to happen to these players when they get past the HS game (refer to OB44's post).

We were made to understand that being a baseball jack of all trades wasn't right for most players. Who knows, perhaps if he had spent as much time on hitting as he did at pitching he wouldn't have gotten almost a full scholarship or drafted.

Instead, son stayed with the team, what he did was take batting practice for two years every opportunity he could (and cage), as a senior he was back at the plate and led team in BA and HR (and ERA as the starting pitcher). He played first when he wasn't pitching. He was awarded utility player of the year in our county in HS.

It would have been so much easier, I suppose to some, to go play on another team and get in that hitting time. I think that this was a good lesson for him, exactly I think what the author was trying to get across.



JMO.

Sorry observer 44 I still disagree with that attitude. When players play high school ball thats when whomever wherever sits. Thats when a player is taught team spirit and sit and dont argue or say a word. And most players do that.
Summer ball, just cause a kid is looking to play a bunch doesnt mean he is seeking to be team stud and walk around like hes gods gift to baseball.
Travel ball doesnt have to be about jet setting the nation in hopes of landing the big contract or appearing at every showcase event there is. There is this thing called "fun". You know, no pressure, just play baseball throughout the summer months the american dream. Not having a coach constantly chirping about "character developement".
There is this thing on a baseball team called a rotation where everyone, regardless of skill level, gets playing time.
Lets not blame parents either, I would have to say one of the MAJOR problems in travel is coaches and tournament directors creating this "whos the best team in the land" world series that go on every weekend. How many times do you here of a player, parent or coach claiming "we were #3 in the nation last year" or "8 of our players attending D1 college showcases last year, thats how great our travel club is, we produce champions" IF there was to be negative press towards summer travel ball, lets hit on that.
God forbid some average skilled level kid looking to play summer travel ball and get as much play time as possible for the simple fact of, having fun.

cpfsam, what you are describing seems like rec ball to me. If you want this:

quote:

There is this thing called "fun". You know, no pressure, just play baseball throughout the summer months the american dream. Not having a coach constantly chirping about "character developement".
There is this thing on a baseball team called a rotation where everyone, regardless of skill level, gets playing time.

And you understand that your son is this:

quote:

average skilled level kid looking to play summer travel ball and get as much play time as possible for the simple fact of, having fun.

Then don't sign up for a team that advertises this:

quote:

coaches and tournament directors creating this "whos the best team in the land" world series that go on every weekend. How many times do you here of a player, parent or coach claiming "we were #3 in the nation last year" or "8 of our players attending D1 college showcases last year, thats how great our travel club is, we produce champions"

Easy.

quote:

Originally posted by cpfsam:
God forbid some average skilled level kid looking to play summer travel ball and get as much play time as possible for the simple fact of, having fun.

No harm in that. Look at any golf course on the weekend. Not many Jack Nicklaussessesss out there. Doesn't mean no one is enjoying it.

cpfsam,
I do agree with some of which you said, especially the part about having fun. Once the fun goes out of it, then it's time to pack it up folks.

Most players are good teammates, can accept rotating, and don't argue. Some parents do.
And I don't think that one has to give up playing with a better team because they have no plans to play after HS.

I found that often parents resent that, one actually stating once imagine he's taking up space on a travel roster and has no plans to play after HS. That player didn't go onto play college ball, but now a successful businessman at age 26. The game can teach you a lot more than actually playing it. JMO.

That's balony.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Great stuff OB44, I often wonder if many of the folks today really read your posts and understand what you are trying to get across.

That's why GBM would have taken his son to a different team and we didn't. That's why he complained to the coach because he thought his son should have gotten in more time than he did and we never would have. Parents are just different these days (not necessarily the players) they want immediate gratification, if their players are not used more than they feel they should, their kid got screwed. This bypasses important lessons for your players to learn.
What is going to happen to these players when they get past the HS game (refer to OB44's post).

We were made to understand that being a baseball jack of all trades wasn't right for most players. Who knows, perhaps if he had spent as much time on hitting as he did at pitching he wouldn't have gotten almost a full scholarship or drafted.

Instead, son stayed with the team, what he did was take batting practice for two years every opportunity he could (and cage), as a senior he was back at the plate and led team in BA and HR (and ERA as the starting pitcher). He played first when he wasn't pitching. He was awarded utility player of the year in our county in HS.

It would have been so much easier, I suppose to some, to go play on another team and get in that hitting time. I think that this was a good lesson for him, exactly I think what the author was trying to get across.



JMO.

Sometimes I even wonder why you ask baited questions and then rake everyone who replys over the coals. Before you go jumping to conclusions and state how much more reserved and better you are than me perhaps you never tend to read my posts and inquire after them. On that particular team in the fall that we played the tournament on we were led to believe that son would play certain positions and get so many at-bats against quality level teams. This particular tournament was not a showcase event or anything like that. We traveled out of town several times per week for almost a month to practice with the team leading up to the tournament. The coaches seemed genuine and all. We then used the last of our savings to travel accross parts of three states to play in the tournament, the same distance we would have traveled had we gone to the sophmore classic instead in Arizona that son got invited to play with.

So, we get there and find out the coach has invited other players he has promised to get playing time from another state. So, those kids along with his son end up playing pretty much the entire weekend while all our hard working kids from our state get to sit on the bench the whole weekend and there was not anyone on that team better than our kids. The only reason I decided to say something was because he was still trying to tell our boys after the tournament that it was a good experience for them. You know what, Bull$*&@! You don't lead kids to believe that they are a part of the team and drag them and their parents two states away and let them sit on the bench while kids from another state get the spots in the field that your kid was promised. There were several parents and palyers who were not very happy. One kid who had previously graduated HS and was now married was invited to play on the team. He spent money he didn't have, left a young family at home, and went to that tournament and ended up playing all of 2 innings in a blowout game in the outfiel all weekend. I am a pretty well reserved individual and only spoke up because I felt someone needed to stand up to that coach and speak things very plainly to him.

So, perhaps you should inquire a little more about something before you go spouting off about "other parents" and the problems with them.

Travel ball is pretty watered down these days. I would think there is something for everyones skill level. Most travel leagues offer more games than rec but not every team is trying to win the national title or a showcase tourney. I dont believe travel ball is as competitive as once was so the article written in reference to this thread doesnt hold ground imo.
And I'm talking the article. Not a high school coach disciplinarian.
Travel ball sometimes gets an unfair bogus rap along with the parents. Ive coached travel ball for years and been a parent. My 2 sons think they had a great upbringing in the travel baseball world with parents and siblings along for the ride. Travel baseball has taught my kids skills they wouldnt get elsewhere. Especially in high school ball.
There is many reasons to change teams, playing time, coaching, location, competition level. I think its good for players to experience different envirionments in baseball, and travel baseball allows that freedom. Yes, there are bad apples, like in anything else, players, parents, coaches, leagues. But its not a blanket issue. The article is not correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
So, we get there and find out the coach has invited other players he has promised to get playing time from another state. So, those kids along with his son end up playing pretty much the entire weekend while all our hard working kids from our state get to sit on the bench the whole weekend and there was not anyone on that team better than our kids. The only reason I decided to say something was because he was still trying to tell our boys after the tournament that it was a good experience for them. You know what, Bull$*&@! You don't lead kids to believe that they are a part of the team and drag them and their parents two states away and let them sit on the bench while kids from another state get the spots in the field that your kid was promised. There were several parents and palyers who were not very happy. One kid who had previously graduated HS and was now married was invited to play on the team. He spent money he didn't have, left a young family at home, and went to that tournament and ended up playing all of 2 innings in a blowout game in the outfiel all weekend. I am a pretty well reserved individual and only spoke up because I felt someone needed to stand up to that coach and speak things very plainly to him.

So, perhaps you should inquire a little more about something before you go spouting off about "other parents" and the problems with them.

Yup been there and done it, learned from it and that was the end of it, and my reply would have been to anyone, you just seemed to elaborate a bit more then perhaps needed, I remembered you telling that once before, was it relevant to this discussion? What you should do is chalk it up as a lesson learned, don't blame the coach because you spent $$ to travel when you couldn't afford it.

Who drains their bank account to play in a tournament that means nothing in the big scheme of things anyway?

What type of travel team was that anyway? How does a HS grad play on a youth travel team?

Your answer actually is what I am talking about, blame others (with some reason) when the player doesn't get in his playing time. The easiest thing to do is walk away.
In this case, I doubt whether we or most others would have been in that situation to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
So, we get there and find out the coach has invited other players he has promised to get playing time from another state. So, those kids along with his son end up playing pretty much the entire weekend while all our hard working kids from our state get to sit on the bench the whole weekend and there was not anyone on that team better than our kids. The only reason I decided to say something was because he was still trying to tell our boys after the tournament that it was a good experience for them. You know what, Bull$*&@! You don't lead kids to believe that they are a part of the team and drag them and their parents two states away and let them sit on the bench while kids from another state get the spots in the field that your kid was promised. There were several parents and palyers who were not very happy. One kid who had previously graduated HS and was now married was invited to play on the team. He spent money he didn't have, left a young family at home, and went to that tournament and ended up playing all of 2 innings in a blowout game in the outfiel all weekend. I am a pretty well reserved individual and only spoke up because I felt someone needed to stand up to that coach and speak things very plainly to him.

So, perhaps you should inquire a little more about something before you go spouting off about "other parents" and the problems with them.

Yup been there and done it, learned from it and that was the end of it, and my reply would have been to anyone, you just seemed to elaborate a bit more then perhaps needed, I remembered you telling that once before, was it relevant to this discussion? What you should do is chalk it up as a lesson learned, don't blame the coach because you spent $$ to travel when you couldn't afford it.

Who drains their bank account to play in a tournament that means nothing in the big scheme of things anyway?

What type of travel team was that anyway? How does a HS grad play on a youth travel team?

Your answer actually is what I am talking about, blame others (with some reason) when the player doesn't get in his playing time. The easiest thing to do is walk away.
In this case, I doubt whether we or most others would have been in that situation to begin with.

Walk away? Yeah we walked away. We will probably never play with that coach again. tHis wasn't about blaming others for son not getting playing time, it was entirely about being misled. I would have had no problem going to one of the showcase events that weekend on another team knowing son would get limited playing time on one of those teams. We decided that playing on this team would do the most in ending the season on a good note achieving some last seasons end goals. Instead, we were left feeling misled and lied to. I honestly believe you can't just never say anything and let others fall in the same trap. People have a conscience and sometimes they need to be reminded of their misdeeds.

GBM,
Why was your son playing on a travel team that had a graduate HS player on it?
What was the age bracket?
I mean seriously what type of travel team was that?
You used your savings for that?
Can you explain?

BTW, mine along with many here were lousy rec ball players and they did just fine. In my neck of the woods, if you can pay, chances are you will play, so travel ball has it's issues.

First I want to say I am against pre-teen travel ball but I don't think its the devil either. I think the author made some good points but I don't think travel ball is the primary blame. I do see though how sports not just baseball is becoming more and more about right now. Every year on my 10-12 football team more parents of 10 year olds complain about playing time (well at least until the first time they get laid out by a 12 year old) but that's just the way it is most 10 year olds don't get on the field much.

Heck on this and other baseball and football boards I have seen hundreds of posts over the past few years about "should my son sit the bench on varsity or move down to JV for more playing time". My freshman year I made varsity. I can count the times I got on the field on one had but my friends were playing JV. They played in the field every game while I carried equipment. They got at bats while I cleaned spikes. But you know what, they were JV B----es and I was VARSITY. That's how I felt. That's how my friends on JV felt. I loved every minute of riding the pine that year.

To me that attitude is what has changed. That is why so many jump teams in travel ball. That attitude is the problem and it wasn't caused by travel ball. Travel ball just (unfortunately) gave the attitude a place to grow.

I think that you have brought up some very good points to the discussion.

It definetly is more about attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
Why was your son playing on a travel team that had a graduate HS player on it?
What was the age bracket?
I mean seriously what type of travel team was that?
You used your savings for that?
Can you explain?

BTW, mine along with many here were lousy rec ball players and they did just fine. In my neck of the woods, if you can pay, chances are you will play, so travel ball has it's issues.

It was in an 18u division. The kid was still 18 at the time.

We set up a baseball savings account every year specifically for fees, equipment, travel expense, etc. We used the last of it for last year on that adventure. We have a limited budget and so we have to pick and choose which events we will go to each year.

Travel ball pretty much anywhere in the country has it's issues- more of a problem with parents than players. But, rec ball has a way higher degree of issues that just don't jive with playing competetively. Our travel ball is set up locally and includes teams from about 5 states with about 300-400 teams signing up each year. Some of it gets very competetive and as any travel league in the country- it has it's few bad teams made up of players mostly "paying to pay". Perhaps the OP article should be more pointed at those few specific teams because for the most part, travel ball is a step up in every way to ordinary rec ball.

quote:

Originally posted by coach scotty:
First I want to say I am against pre-teen travel ball but I don't think its the devil either. I think the author made some good points but I don't think travel ball is the primary blame. I do see though how sports not just baseball is becoming more and more about right now. Every year on my 10-12 football team more parents of 10 year olds complain about playing time (well at least until the first time they get laid out by a 12 year old) but that's just the way it is most 10 year olds don't get on the field much.

Heck on this and other baseball and football boards I have seen hundreds of posts over the past few years about "should my son sit the bench on varsity or move down to JV for more playing time". My freshman year I made varsity. I can count the times I got on the field on one had but my friends were playing JV. They played in the field every game while I carried equipment. They got at bats while I cleaned spikes. But you know what, they were JV B----es and I was VARSITY. That's how I felt. That's how my friends on JV felt. I loved every minute of riding the pine that year.

To me that attitude is what has changed. That is why so many jump teams in travel ball. That attitude is the problem and it wasn't caused by travel ball. Travel ball just (unfortunately) gave the attitude a place to grow.

So let me ask this important question- Is it any different with professional players of most any sport jumping around from team to team these days? What about "opportunity"? We live in a slightly different world now. When I was a kid a player usually spent his whole career in one organization. Nowdays, because of the game of "opportunity" has opened up, many players get traded to other teams to better enhance their playing time and abilities. How is this any different with a lot of travel team opportunities?

I agree with you that the "attitude" has changed in a lot of degrees, but, so has the competition and the number of folks playing baseball has greatly increased. With that competition and increase in quantity of players, more opportunities abound to better suit individual needs. If Johnny isn't getting playing time on team X he can move over to team Y. I see the same thing in professional sports. If Johhny-next-Jeter isn't excelling too well on pro team X he may ask to get traded to pro team Y. Both from a players perspective and managers perspective, the opportunities we have now better allow players to find something to fit into before the dream window of opportunity disappears.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Our travel ball is set up locally and includes teams from about 5 states with about 300-400 teams signing up each year. Some of it gets very competetive and as any travel league in the country- it has it's few bad teams made up of players mostly "paying to pay". Perhaps the OP article should be more pointed at those few specific teams because for the most part, travel ball is a step up in every way to ordinary rec ball.

Perhaps this is a point the author was trying to make. Could be no difference at all between some travel teams and rec ball.

My sons first travel experience was in rec ball. One team from each division was allowed to sponsor a team that "traveled" to other counties (we played khorey). In the fall we played the league as well as local tournies. That meant the best played travel ball, and everyone got to play, wasn't overloaded with players. We played competitively but not expensively. Some of the kids on these teams back when son was young are also still involved in proball, that's how good they were.

When son was in HS, the premier travel teams in our area still are to this day, they played against each other, then travel bb hit it big. Everyone basically has switched over to travel ball. That's why I said if you can afford what they are offering, most likely you are in. For the better travel teams, it doesn't work like that, you have to be one of the best in your area, state or country to play, and that means that someone sits the bench, at some point and some of these teams carry large rosters in tournaments. Some are not competitive but may appear to be as they associate the word "travel" with it. They do not play any league in particular, we were with Connie Mack and played a 68 game summer schedule (now that's travel ball), many are just teams made up to play tournies.

I am not really sure about your story of your 14 year old playing with 18 year olds and claiming that your son and some of the players were better, I mean really if that was a travel team and the younger ones were the better ones, how competitive was that 18u league?

If you don't like your situation on one team or coach you just go looking for another travel team to play on, I think that is what the point of the article was, am not necessarily in agreement or against his opinion.

quote:

Perhaps this is a point the author was trying to make. Could be no difference at all between some travel teams and rec ball.

My sons first travel experience was in rec ball. One team from each division was allowed to sponsor a team that "traveled" to other counties (we played khorey). In the fall we played the league as well as local tournies. That meant the best played travel ball, and everyone got to play, wasn't overloaded with players. We played competitively but not expensively. Some of the kids on these teams back when son was young are also still involved in proball, that's how good they were.

When son was in HS, the premier travel teams in our area still are to this day, they played against each other, then travel bb hit it big. Everyone basically has switched over to travel ball. That's why I said if you can afford what they are offering, most likely you are in. For the better travel teams, it doesn't work like that, you have to be one of the best in your area, state or country to play, and that means that someone sits the bench, at some point and some of these teams carry large rosters in tournaments. Some are not competitive but may appear to be as they associate the word "travel" with it. They do not play any league in particular, we were with Connie Mack and played a 68 game summer schedule (now that's travel ball), many are just teams made up to play tournies.

I am not really sure about your story of your 14 year old playing with 18 year olds and claiming that your son and some of the players were better, I mean really if that was a travel team and the younger ones were the better ones, how competitive was that 18u league?

If you don't like your situation on one team or coach you just go looking for another travel team to play on, I think that is what the point of the article was, am not necessarily in agreement or against his opinion.

My son played local rec ball at the usual age- t-ball at age 5-7 then moved on to coach pitch for two years and then into little league at age 9. That year his rec ball coach told us that we needed to put son on a travel team. Around our parts its called "super league" and consists of teams from the five neighboring states around Utah and Idaho. This is different than the local "all-star" league set up as players from the best in rec ball that travel around to different counties playing other all-star caliber teams. Most of those tournaments ban the "superleague" from their tournies. The "super league" is made up of teams mostly from Utah, Idaho and Nevada. The superleague is owned locally and is called the "RMSB" (Rocky Mountain School of Baseball). Everyone knows about this superleague in our area. Most kids still play rec ball even if they are also on a superleague team. This makes our rec ball pretty good. 2 years ago, our rec ball Babe ruth/Cal Ripken league sent a team of local players to the Cal Ripken world series. Rec ball is very popular in my area and it is still what separates the players from either playing rec ball or superleague. Many know that once one gets to the "travel" level they are at least better than the average "good player" in the rec leagues and all-star teams made from those rec leagues. Many also know it is a priveledge to play in our local travel league, knowing that it is the next level above rec ball and all-star. Anyways, we got our son into the superleage when he was 10 years old and it was from there that he learned real fast he wasn't the only "ball player" around! It was through this experience over the next few years that taught son how to compete against the very best talent around. It taught him that you actually have to work "everyday" at baseball to compete and be better than the next Joe around. It also taught him that coaches and teams expected a lot more than what rec ball coaches and teams demanded. In our parts, all of the best players getting scholarships and getting drafted are the ones who have grown up through the years playing in the local travel league.

I guess we just have a much different view on "travel ball" in my neck of the woods. Our travel ball is not some "glorified rec ball league" as it seems is the case in other parts of the country. You actually have to compete and be "good" to stay afloat in our travel league. The few teams that are made up of "pay to play" types get their pine crowns creamed to no end weekend after miserable weekend and it isn't long before those teams disappear altogether. But, as soon as they do others pop up. Some people never figure it out that you actually have to be "good" to play travel ball I guess.

I really don't have that much on the negative side to say about "travel ball". My beef, having seen both sides, is how "travel ball" always gets a bad rap and yet, the whole community cheers when these kids get older and start winning state championships at the HS level! They are the same kids!

You bet, I do have a problem with the "wannabe travel teams" that pay to play. More in general, it is those few parents forking out the big bucks thinking their son is the next Jeter that paints the bad name for travel ball. Trust me, I can't stand any player who has played on my team through the years that believes they automatically get "playing time" just because of their "name" or "status" in the community. I absolutely can't stand any player or parents of a player that thinks he has nothing to work on (thinks he knows it all already) and is lazy. But, usually, in our parts, those players never make it out of rec ball to compete at the higher level.

As for the team from last fall we played on, my son was the youngest player on the team. There were no other 14 year olds on the team. The other kids that didn't play much were as old as the players from the other state.

GBM,

You still crack me up. I ain't lying.

YGD

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM,

You still crack me up. I ain't lying.

YGD

Yeah, I crack myself up too!

These are parents and coaches posting here right? My point exactly.
Amazing how people dodge the fact baseball is a game, just go play. Including the author.

Lets all tell our own kids story, LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM,

You still crack me up. I ain't lying.

YGD

ditto
You should go back and read over your posts.
Didn't you state you got mad at the coach because your son only got in 4 innings in a tournie. Doesn't that kind of put you in that same category as those type of folks you detest?
So you are saying that your son (younger) deserved more playing time im that tournie?

I won't even get into the rest of it.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
GBM,

You still crack me up. I ain't lying.

YGD

ditto
You should go back and read over your posts.
Didn't you state you got mad at the coach because your son only got in 4 innings in a tournie. Doesn't that kind of put you in that same category as those type of folks you detest?
So you are saying that your son (younger) deserved more playing time im that tournie?

I won't even get into the rest of it.

You got it all wrong. I detest the kids and parents who "think" they are all that and do not put in the work to actually prove it. My complaint with the coach was all about being "misled". Somehow you have this way of taking things I say and turning them into things I have never said.

The posts on this thread are very insightful. I nominate this thread as a 'Golden Thread'. Anybody care to second this?

Sorry GBM, you posts just confuse me and at times makes no sense.
I guess I misunderstood, you were talking about being misled and the topic is about how travel has hurt player work ethic and attitude, you have gotten into describing a situation, that was more or less about a coach misleading you and your family and having to drain your specific account you set up for baseball travel (you claim that your 14 year old didn't pitch enough while playing in an 18u tournament). Not sure what you ere misled about what 14 year old pitchers are expected to do in a weekend tournament, what EXACTLT were your expectations? I think that has a lot to do with the topic, expectations. You beleived your son was way far better than the others on the team, therefore he deserved uch more playing time. I think that is a very large part of the problem presented.

I guess I should learn to be a better listener, but to be honest I am not sure whatever you had to say had anything to do with this topic.


What you speak of the correlation between professionals jumping from team to team and the topic has nothing to do with the other, the only time you have an opportunity to make your own decision in bb and most sports is when you become a FA. Yes, definetly sometimes you get traded or put on waivers because it isn't a good fit. You just don't go switching because you aren't playing enough that you like. If you are seeing teh bench, you get off of it and work your butt off to see more playing time, for some they beleive "switching" is the easier route.

Again I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic but makes for good discussion.

Got that?

FWIW, the author's organization is holding tryouts for a couple of.......Travel Teams

quote:

FWIW, the author's organization is holding tryouts for a couple of.......Travel Teams

Yeah, they do usually put together some pretty good teams.
I kind of wonder if the column was a response to some players jumping ship. But I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Sorry GBM, you posts just confuse me and at times makes no sense.
I guess I misunderstood, you were talking about being misled and the topic is about how travel has hurt player work ethic and attitude, you have gotten into describing a situation, that was more or less about a coach misleading you and your family and having to drain your specific account you set up for baseball travel (you claim that your 14 year old didn't pitch enough while playing in an 18u tournament). Not sure what you ere misled about what 14 year old pitchers are expected to do in a weekend tournament, what EXACTLT were your expectations? I think that has a lot to do with the topic, expectations. You beleived your son was way far better than the others on the team, therefore he deserved uch more playing time. I think that is a very large part of the problem presented.

I guess I should learn to be a better listener, but to be honest I am not sure whatever you had to say had anything to do with this topic.


What you speak of the correlation between professionals jumping from team to team and the topic has nothing to do with the other, the only time you have an opportunity to make your own decision in bb and most sports is when you become a FA. Yes, definetly sometimes you get traded or put on waivers because it isn't a good fit. You just don't go switching because you aren't playing enough that you like. If you are seeing teh bench, you get off of it and work your butt off to see more playing time, for some they beleive "switching" is the easier route.

Again I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the topic but makes for good discussion.

Got that?

I am going to be very honest and be very nice about it also. Yes indeed you need to be a better kistener. Once again you are misrepresenting or misinterpreting what I said. You just stated-

"(you claim that your 14 year old didn't pitch enough while playing in an 18u tournament). Not sure what you ere misled about what 14 year old pitchers are expected to do in a weekend tournament, what EXACTLT were your expectations?"

Whoever said anything about son not pitching enough at tournament? I never said that. Again you don't listen very well. I never claimed that son didn't get enough pitching time in at tournament. We were led to believe that son would get plenty of defensive playing time and quite a few at-bats none of which happened. We basically traveled a 1000 miles and spent 750 dollars just to watch kids who we didn't even know play. We could have easily spent the same money, traveled the same distance and actually had a positive end to the season with son playing on a different team.

School related baseball is one thing. Being paid to play is another thing. Sticking with the topic of travel baseball could we say there are different levels of travel baseball?

Travel baseball ranges from highly competitive national caliber teams to teams that really don’t play the best possible competition. The most competitive teams range from “pay to play” to those totally sponsored, so players do not “pay to play”. These teams sometimes offer different things for the players, as well. There are some of the best teams in the country that kids pay a fee and some that require no fee.

IMO, there is a difference in these teams. If someone is going to sponsor (pay the bills) and a player commits to that team, two things to think about.

1. That player is someone the team thinks is important and he will get an opportunity to play his way into or out of the lineup. He is actually being “recruited” by that team.
2. That player should understand his situation before committing.

If a player is “paying to play” things are different.

1. They should either get the opportunity to play or be told they are likely to be a role player or reserve on that team.
2. If someone believes they are “paying to play” rather than “paying to be on the team or sit on the bench” there will be a problem.

This is where things could be different from one team to another. Lots of difference between the team that just plays in the tournaments and the team that actually helps develop players in other ways.

We can talk forever about how important it is to sit on the bench and the important lessons it might teach. We all know how important having role players, good teammates, working hard, overcoming obsticles, and having players on the bench is.

And everyone knows that as a season progresses change is likely. Players can change positions, injuries can happen, etc. The better the team and the better the competition, the more likely the pitchers will just pitch rather than play both ways. Lots of differences between the level of teams and even the different age levels.

I really believe that if someone is actually “paying to play” then they should “play” unless there is a prior agreement. I can’t imagine why anyone would “pay to sit” unless they understood ahead of time that it might happen that way.

If I were coaching a team full of players who paid to play, I would feel obligated to make sure they all play. If I were coaching a team where no one had to pay, I wouldn’t feel the same obligation.

Let’s face it, if a kid is a good player, he might learn some valuable lessons by sitting on the bench all the time, but those same lessons are sure to come later on. What he loses is the experience and opportunity to compete on the field and get better. He also loses the opportunity to be seen by people who make decisions. You can’t evaluate the ability of those who are not playing. In most cases he is not having as much fun as those that are playing the game.

All that said… Parents should understand that teams can’t operate with only 10-11 players. Someone does need to sit, it’s very much a part of the game. However, if it’s a team that just plays games, I’m not buying how much I can learn sitting on the bench all the time. And I sure don’t think it’s enough that I should “pay” for those lessons. I can sit right behind the dugout and learn quite a bit without having to pay for it. Or there are a number of other teams I could pay to play for and actually play. Does it make me a lesser person if I actually choose what I “pay” for? That I don’t want to pay a lot of money to sit on the bench all the time?

I think it’s a bit like the old, my kid is a slow runner so running isn’t that important. My kid doesn’t have that great of an arm, so velocity is overrated. In this case it’s my kid plays most all the time so sitting on the bench is OK, or maybe even a good thing. But how many here would actually pay a lot of money to have their 15-16 year old son sit on the travel team bench all the time?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I really believe that if someone is actually “paying to play” then they should “play” unless there is a prior agreement. I can’t imagine why anyone would “pay to sit” unless they understood ahead of time that it might happen that way.

If I were coaching a team full of players who paid to play, I would feel obligated to make sure they all play. If I were coaching a team where no one had to pay, I wouldn’t feel the same obligation.

I 100% agree. The problem is when that expectation is carried over to a HS team. This is why I feel travel ball isn't the culprit but it does allow the problem to fester.

Years ago before travel and all that we had was rec ball. It worked like HS. When you moved up and was in the young group you sat the bench and played outfield. The next year when you were the oldest on the team you played infield and never sat the bench. So when HS came around and you sat the bench as Freshman and sophomore then started as a junior senior you were already used to it. Travel has given kids a chance to move teams and not just be stuck on one team. Some families see that it is just this way in this particular venue but others seem to have started believing all of sports is like this.

I'm not saying this is good or bad and I sure wouldn't claim it's the destruction of the game. I do believe though that if this attitude develops in a player that the player will have a harder and harder time with each level they move up because working your way into the lineup becomes a longer and harder task.

coach scotty,

Very good points!

Most everything has there plus and minus. Of course, I think you would agree, as a HS coach (which I'm not) I would rather have my future players getting as much "playing" experience as possible and against the best possible competition.

I do think that when someone commits to a team, they should keep with it. Also, I don't think finding the best possible opportunity to actually "play" is going to ruin the player, ruin baseball, or anything else for that matter.

In fact, I would encourage "playing" at the highest level, yet we hear about a few HS coaches who are very much against that. That is a different topic that has been discussed many times here.

PG,
Good stuff, and who would know better than you about travel teams.

I do agree there are travel teams and then there are travel teams (I know you understand).

Is this about sitting all the time or sitting just some of the time, there is a difference, isn't there? I mean it's pretty obvious if you sit every game, you need to go looking for another team, one that perhaps would be a better fit.

Travel means different things to different folks (as evident in this topic). I am almost embarrassed to say in grade school and middle school my son played on travel teams to have fun and learn the basics and stayed within state and close to home and traveled in HS for college exposure (where he traveled out of state).
I am not sure that's the norm these days.

I definetly agree that you don't get better by sitting, but I don't agree with people's opinions that you have to travel long distances to play the game to get better.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I definetly agree that you don't get better by sitting, but I don't agree with people's opinions that you have to travel long distances to play the game to get better.

TPM - not trying to be a wise-guy here but you have to consider where people live. In Florida, I am sure a kid can get a competitive game right down the street.

In Ohio or Idaho or Wyoming or South Dakota or wherever in some of the vast spaces our country occupies, you might very well have to travel "long" distances to get in the "game." This is a national recruiting site and the rules that work in California, Texas, and Florida do not necessarily translate to other parts of the country.

a major stumbling block on this site interms of discussionis that posters cite examples but ther is not any relationship to what happens inparts of the country ouside of theirs-- not to mention comparing different age brackets---as has been noted travel ball here is not the same as travel ball there

CD,

Not trying to change the topic, but you brought up a good point.

Yes, it helps young players from northern states when they can go play in certain areas. Like Florida, California, Texas, Georgia, etc.

I've never liked the term "Travel" Baseball. Never liked the term "Showcase" Baseball either. Baseball is baseball! I like the term "Tournament" Baseball. Then there are high level tournaments and other tournaments. You can travel all you want and still be a bad team playing against poor competition. You can be called a showcase team and play in front of very few decision makers and with very little post tournament coverage or benefit.

"Travel" doesn't really say anything to describe quality of play. IMO, "Showcase" describes something different than an actual baseball tournament. I cringe when I hear the word "Showcase" Team.

How about "Highly Competitive Team" that plays against the top teams in the country and wants to win big tournaments? Travel and showcasing are simply byproducts of that team! They are gauranteed to get attention from the recruiters and scouting community.

Besides, scouts can see the tools and individual skills they want at a showcase event and then they want to see how the best players go about WINNING baseball games in a very competitive environment. You can learn a lot about talented players watching them compete on a team that is out to win.

BTW, there are teams that utilize their entire lineup and still plan on winning every game they play. That is because the guy sitting on the bench is a very talented player, so he is going to play.

There are tournaments that last a week and teams might play 9 or 10 games to get to the championship game. That takes a good sized roster full of a lot of talented players.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I definetly agree that you don't get better by sitting, but I don't agree with people's opinions that you have to travel long distances to play the game to get better.

TPM - not trying to be a wise-guy here but you have to consider where people live. In Florida, I am sure a kid can get a competitive game right down the street.

In Ohio or Idaho or Wyoming or South Dakota or wherever in some of the vast spaces our country occupies, you might very well have to travel "long" distances to get in the "game." This is a national recruiting site and the rules that work in California, Texas, and Florida do not necessarily translate to other parts of the country.

Sorry, I was refering about for young players. Is it necessary for 8-14 year olds (pre HS) to "travel" to other parts of the country? To get better? Or does playing as much as you can (no matter where) is what is important?

Now I am coming out of the local Wal Mart and 9 and 10 year olds are collecting money so they can travel this summer out of state for tournament play. So CD, what do you suppose the reason, certainly you can travel down the street to find a good team to play against here in FL. Isn't getting better about not sitting? Again, you don't have to get better to travel long distances, you just need to play as much as you can, according to what is being said here, correct?

I think that PG said it best, you can still travel and not be that good.

Just sayin.....

I know that in my neck of the woods we regulary see teams from out of state solely because we live in mostly sparsley populated areas and the only good teams around are usually hundreds of miles away. Over here in Idaho, "travel ball" means just that- getting in the car on the weekend and traveling 150-200 miles just to play another good team.

Up in Montana and parts of Nevada it's even worse! Over the years we have played several outstanding travel teams from Montana and Nevada and their average distance to play on weekends is in the hundreds of miles. One of the great things about this "traveling" to play is that you must be focused and committed every weekend to travel those distances and try to get the wins. For these kids it's all about giving up other weekend opportunities for the love of the game. For mid-size tournaments that teams in our travel league play in against each other it is nothing for teams in the league to put a 500-1000 miles on the old odometer in a weekend tournament. There are times when I wish we lived in a more populated area and didn't have to travel to such great distances to play against other good teams, but in the end it helps us to appreciate the time spent on the field chasing the dream of baseball. There were times last year where we would play a game in one town and then that same day drive 130 miles to the neighboring city to pick up a game a few hours later. Sometimes we put 300-400 miles on the car in one day just playing other teams in non-tournament play.

Therefore I think "travel ball" is relative to where one lives. In my area of population there are only about 150 thousand people in a 100 mile radius. Finding good teams in that area is pretty slim. All the good teams can be counted on one hand in that area and you can only play them so many times before you know every player's weaknesses and strengths. Travel ball is about "new challenges" and trying to climb the ladder talent wise to get better. If I lived in a heavy metro area one could realistically never have to travel more than 100 miles and have a pretty endless line of good teams to compete against. Our travel league area is about 400 miles wide by about a 1000 miles in length. From that area we pool from a population of about 4-5 million people. Compare this to a large metro area and that area would consist of a 40 mile wide by 100 miles in length. So it is all relative. Personally I think having to travel greater distances in travel ball makes it mean more for the players and they have to be more focused and committed. After all, a regular saturday double-header is a 12 hour event most of the time around here.

I think that you and I have gotten this topic off track.

Travel and it's intended purpose does mean different things to different people, my opinion is and will never change, is that WHEN and WHERE you do the travel and WHO sees you that is very important.

There is another topic going on regarding paying your dues, I find it interesting, these topics are pretty much related, yet they get different responses.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
BTW, there are teams that utilize their entire lineup and still plan on winning every game they play. That is because the guy sitting on the bench is a very talented player, so he is going to play.

PG - somehow I missed your post, but this has become a fine discussion.

I have a grandson who at 4 and 1/2 years old, appears very natural at baseball. I am going to do things differently with him.

Rule #1

Have Fun

Rule #2

Have Fun

Rule #3

Don't take things so seriously

Rule #4 - maybe the most important rule

Be on a team where all kids play just about equally.

My baseball son was lucky. My oldest son was also a good player but he did not have quite the luck or the temperment for the game frankly.

I don't see why all kids on a team cannot share playing time. It certainly won't hurt the star players one iota to rotate a few innings each game with the kids who are on the bench. Another thing I would like to see in youth baseball is perhaps somewhat smaller rosters but every kid on the team is in the batting order. If you have twelve or 13 hitters on the team, why can't every kid have his name in the batting lineup every game? Who the hell cares if that is not pure baseball? At the youth level, I want every kid on the team to play. I think that is the biggest change that we need to see in the sport. If we do that, the sport will thrive and prosper imho.

There's more than one kind of pay to play. All of our kids paid to play because we split up the costs of entering the tournaments. Therefore we felt that everyone deserved significant playing time.

The play to pay team I referred to earlier was a program where they also paid a monthly fee to the coach of the team. It was one of the stronger travel teams in our area and has had both first and second rounders as alums.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
If you have twelve or 13 hitters on the team, why can't every kid have his name in the batting lineup every game? Who the hell cares if that is not pure baseball? At the youth level, I want every kid on the team to play. I think that is the biggest change that we need to see in the sport. If we do that, the sport will thrive and prosper imho.

I strongly agree.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:

quote:

If your not playing much make sure your in a situation where you are in the summer.

I think Coach May said to find a travel team where you can get playing time.

The travel team I ran through 14u played at a fairly high, but not the highest level of competition by any means and we tried to keep the number of players such that everyone got plenty of playing time. Sometimes that resulted in scrambling to find enough players for a given tournament and having to play some kids out of position but that was preferable to having players sit any more than necessary.

We tried to get the best players we could but the one time we got a player (who left the pay to play team he was on after some parents took it over to get out of paying) who belonged at a higher level of competition than we were playing at we said we'd be happy to have him play with us and although he would have helped us be more competitive in the open tournaments we suggested that he would have no problem finding a stronger team than ours to play on. They found a stronger team for him and it worked for him and it worked for the kids we had quite a few of whom are playing in college now. The kid who we "turned down" was a first rounder in the most recent draft. We did end up picking up another kid who wasn't quite as talented from that pay to play team and ended up beating them in the semi's of our last tournament.

There are a lot of levels of travel teams and if a player wanted to sit on a high level team rather than play against a bit weaker competition that's their choice but not one I'd recommend.

Probably the most interesting thing was one parent who was absolutely honest with us that their kid was going to play on another team because they had a professional ballplayer coaching it and figured he'd get better competition. The parent said he hoped his son could still play with us when we needed him but understood that the regulars would get priority for playing time. Another parent in the exact same situation tried to hide what was happening from us so that her son would be the starter whenever he "deigned" to play with us. Why was it the exact same situation? Because it was only one player and the dad was telling us straight while the mom was lying to us about why the kid wasn't playing with us in some tournaments.

CaDad - sorry I did not comment sooner on this but this was one of the better posts in this thread imho. Love your philosophy.

Many of us take things too seriously imho. The goal at the youth level should not be about winning and losing so much but about development for each player. Yes, sports is about winning ultimately but there is no reason why that each kid on the roster should not contribute to that effort imho.

.
First of all I am not against travel ball per se, mine played, I see great opportunity there...For rural players it can be a necessity....and it is clear that it is not “either or” when it comes to play or sit at any level (rec, travel, or sponsor).…but I also believe that we as parents have to stay incredibly self vigilant and self aware… I believe that there is an incredibly fine line between using sports as a means to a bigger end…and getting so wrapped up in youth sports that we lose perspective and big picture and risk becoming those "that out of control parents" that we point to and vilify. We need to see this thing from all perspectives and take a middle ground not dwell in the extremes.

I do find ironic (if I have it right) that the “play everybody scenario” that we all bolted from into travel ball has morphed into a….“play everybody” for $ scenario. And that the teams with the big sponsors (prep scholarships) that I have to believe now attract the elite (or predictably soon will - ie basketball)…are still as reported more performance/ability based.

A story...

There is a local world class private school where the education is truly exceptional, the teachers great, the facilities magnificent, the curriculum better than most colleges and the collegiate acceptance list is a “who’s who” of the top colleges in the country.

A few years ago they quit offering accelerated classes because the parents who were paying the bills demanded that their kids had to be included...whether they qualified academically or not. The reasoning being that at $30K, they all were entitled to the exact same education, regardless of ability.

The interesting part is that when they get to these high end colleges they are no longer protected and despite a great formal education, when faced with no holds barred competition, a shocking % fold up emotionally, they come home and restart their academic careers at the local JC.

44
.

ob44 - great thoughts and perspective.

One thing to think about...

I don't think sports is a perfect analogy for academics. None of us would expect any of our kids that we were paying hard earned money for to "sit" while other more talented kids were attending class in their place. At the high school and collegiate level academically, every kid has to play i.e., learn. Do they all get to play in the most elite classes? No, that should be based on merit imho.

With sports, I don't disagree that there are not life lessons to be learned there. I just don't think that one of those lessons has to be that some kids need to be sitting on the bench. My feelings have changed on this issue over the years. I don't think the price of rice in China will be affected if we figure out ways for all kids to play at the youth level. I don't believe that for high school ball and above however. There, kids need to learn how to compete and earn their playing time.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think there’s a big difference between learning that someone needs to sit and being the kid who sits most all the time. IMO, it’s one of those rich get richer things. Those that play are more likely to get better than those who sit on the bench. They are more likely to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. They will gain more experience in reacting to situations as they happen.
I don’t think anyone believes that baseball players don’t benefit from actually playing the game. That is what it’s all about to baseball players. That is why they are called baseball “players”.

That said, I think sitting on the bench is something every player needs to experience. It builds character and can make the right player hungry. However, it’s also one of the main reasons young kids quit the game before they have had a chance to develop. It's also more "fun" to play! Often coaches use "benching" as a form of punishment. If for some it is punishment to sit, how does the kid sitting all the time feel about it?

A young kid sitting on the bench for one of the top 14U travel teams in the country might be good enough to be on the field for the 10th or 20th best team in the country. I don’t see it as a money spent thing. Even if both teams were fully sponsored and it didn’t cost the player any money to play on either team, I could understand why someone would choose to play rather than sit. At the same time, we all know someone has to sit.

At some point, most players will experience sitting. Those able to deal with that are usually well respected by coaches and teammates. Those who can’t deal with it either quit or are told to leave. IMO, this is not a process that should take place any earlier than necessary. Guess I’m saying it’s a good thing to experience sitting on the bench (for many reasons), but it’s a better thing to be on the field (for development).

Professional baseball may not be perfect, but they figured this out many years ago. Baseball players need to play! Those they are most interested in developing (have the most invested in) play, while the bench is loaded with the extra guys. Once in a while an extra guy gets his chance and makes the most of it and becomes someone that the club gets more interested in. But usually these extra guys end up released or they decide to move on in life. Then there are those who make the Big Leagues and there they learn to sit. But those guys are paid very well to sit on the bench. For the most part, the organization prefers to keep young players in the minor leagues where they are out there playing every day rather than sitting on the bench on the Big League team all year. In other words they understand the importance of playing.

Some might think it makes no sense to use professional baseball as an example. Point is… If the highest level believes playing is so important for development, why would it be any different for the lowest level or the levels in between? Granted much can be learned sitting on the bench. But baseball players are developed on the field. Some of both might be worthwhile.

IMO this also relates to college decisions. If someone is most interested in developing their playing ability for future opportunities, they should strongly consider how often they will be in the games. In other words… what is the level or the program where I am most likely to play. There actually are some that would rather sit at the power program than play at a lesser profile program. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what they want. In fact, those guys can be a great asset and are usually very well liked by their teammates. But college coaches recruit players they want on the field, playing in the games.

These are just my opinions. Some will agree, some will disagree. Very good points by everyone, good discussion!

PG, I just discovered this thread. What an insightful post!

I know Bum, Jr. has been motivated by his experience--sitting--motivated in a good way. He has worked especially hard lately to make sure this is the last time. In fact, I expect a huge summer for him.

It goes to that 6th tool players ignore. Character. How well do you handle adversity?

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Another thing I would like to see in youth baseball is perhaps somewhat smaller rosters but every kid on the team is in the batting order. If you have twelve or 13 hitters on the team, why can't every kid have his name in the batting lineup every game? Who the hell cares if that is not pure baseball?

In fact, it would ruin the game. Competition is the great motivator for these kids. Should a kid who works his tail off to improve his game have to sacrifice in favor of those that don't? Do we apply this logic to pitchers as well? Pitch Jones equally regardless of his ERA?

These travel teams are formed to win. If they don't, the travel team would fail to attract top talent. "Travel" teams that are formed to simply benefit the sons of the coaches, who otherwise wouldn't play or would receive diminished playing time, are by definition not travel teams and won't attract top talent.

A talented player who sits in favor of mediocre players would simply migrate to a team where his talents are rewarded, IMHO. At some point, these kids need to learn the value of hard work. They can't do that if there is no reward.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
In fact, it would ruin the game. Competition is the great motivator for these kids. Should a kid who works his tail off to improve his game have to sacrifice in favor of those that don't? Do we apply this logic to pitchers as well? Pitch Jones equally regardless of his ERA?

Respectfully disagree. Depending on the age group and especially early on, I think the more players you get involved the better. There is a school of thought that thinks that the better players are somehow diminished by a letting others get involved (my favorite comment was that it is "baseball socialism.") To me, nothing could be further from the truth. reason one is very practical; with a very few exception, NO ONE knows who will turn out to be a stud; it is play and hard work that allow PLAYERS to decide. And you can't do that on the pine.

Reason two is that the truly gifted athlete (with talent and work ethic) will be better and, when it counts (when everyone is man-sized and in their late teens and early twenties) will move on. In my opinion, sitting the bench early in the baseball process (before high school, anyway) doesn't "build" much of anything. Importantly to me, it DOES shrink the pool of athletes willing to stick with a very difficult game into their late teens; which I think is a bigger issue.

I think that is telling that this argument often devolves into a "talented/hardworking player" versus "mediocre/lazy player" comparison (because everyone agrees that a talented/hardworking player shouldn't give anything to the other). I said this a little earlier in the thread; I see this as a false comparison. My experience has been that any player that cares enough to move to a team that will get him or her more PT is anything but lazy. As to the truly entitled or lazy, I just don't see them moving on to begin with.

OBC