How will you teach hitting?

1st Runger? Well at least my ladder is outside the garage. LOL!

Now John, lets work on that core. But coach, I don't have a bat. Son you don't need one. We are going to hit this ball with load. Look Ma, no arms, no hands ... You once noted that you had been a "coach." I now know why you got out.

Simply saying that the hands will set themselves. Now you once posted that coaches don't instruct.

Linear,

Dont forget those wrists and arms. The stronger - the better. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
1st Runger? Well at least my ladder is outside the garage. LOL!

Now John, lets work on that core. But coach, I don't have a bat....

Great attempt at diversion. Not unexpected for someone on the 1st rung who "promotes" himself as "the baseball guy" of your area. Your inability to open to this stuff because you don't like me, blue dog, or some other internet guy, or because "no one can tell me anything" hurts your kids.

If you were on rung 2 or 3, you would understand how to carry, load/unload with a bat.

But, you don't. Won't. Because your ego won't let you say........someone else knows this stuff more than I do.

And that ego is obtructionism. That ego stands between #6, #7, #8 and #9 becoming more than they ever thought they could be. It's quite obvious that #1-#5 in your program make you. You don't make them.

Shock and Awe!

quote:

BTW, I've read it, I've heard others say it, I've said it. Is it true? Is his batspeed subpar for mlb players? Or do you know?

His bat quickness has to rank with the high ones though.

I understand your point about quickness vs batspeed. It has some valdity/ usefulness in coaching for reasons we both know

Someone said " when somebody has a great swing you do not notice the body only the path of the bat. Some players are able to transfer all their energy to the striking surface of the bat by having it in the perfect orbit around the core and the barrel coming out at what appears to be the perfect time. Great swing and impeccable timing is hard to beat.

While their simple launch mechanics make them seem quicker and their effortless swing makes the ball appear to carry with less bat speed it IS possible that it is an illusion like a FP softball rising( if it is in the strike zone per MArk H) when it is not rising based on film.

Maintaining that perfect arc/angular acceleration vs drag could be proved to be faster by someone better at physics than me maybe.

Could it have to do with the fact that top bat speed somewhere during the swing is easier to measure than the actual acceleration curve at contact. And possibly a slightly faster bat speed measured at contact that is decelerating could be inferior to a slightly lessor speed that is still accelerating through contact even though the ball stays on the bat 1/2000 sec. Could happen that way technically I guess??

Many kids have the feeling that they need to help the ball out there by tugging harder on the knob( straight line hand path). Others seem to be born with the feeling that that bat tip is going to do the work and all their effort is focused on the release of the bat barrel rather than the fence.(CHP)

At the risk of "giving away the farm" the simple fact of the time between the load and the unload is what you don't get.

It's what every good hitter does. It's at the core of swing quickness. It's the ONLY way to possiblely generate quickness out of the body.

It's used in basketball, football, s****r, track, baseball. It's universal. It's very simple. It's right in front of you. It's the answer to ALL amateur hitters and most professional hitters.

Yet, the obstructionists overlook it. They go to the hands.

I can demonstrate it in 10 minutes. You can have an undersanding of it in 20 minutes.

If you learn to connect the arms to it you'll play at a very high level. That is what takes the time.

Buster

It is physically impossible to load/unload the hands and arms at the rate you can your center.

And, the act of loading the hands and arms is "in the way of" loading/unloading the center. It can't be done at the rate it needs to be done by 95% of all amateur hitters and still properly load/unload the center.

Yes, some professionals do it. And, they benefit from it. But you are in the way of their progression by teaching the arm action hitting philosophy.

Linear,

The farm you are concerned about giving away has been tilled for about the last 30 years.

There is much more to the swing than just the core.

Much much more.

That is the major problem with "the theory" - and that has been lacking from this "theory" from day 1. It is the "theory's" biggest flaw. IMO.

Richard, that post was in humor! At least I laughed when I posted it. Ego? NO ONE HAS A BIGGER ONE THAN YOU.

BLUEDOG? I defy you to find one post in the last 2 years where he and I have gotten after each other. Do we disagree? Sure! However, I think he and I agree a lot more than disagree. I truly respect what he is about.

Concerning the hands or lack thereof, I suggest to you that breaking down any baseball effort be it fielding, hitting, pitching, is the best way to enable a player to understand what they are doing. You simply suggest video and hit. Most coaches would be fired if that were their only course of action when working with their hitters. Sound familure!

More diversion. More history rewrite.

Nothing wrong with working on all parts of a swing.

But, it's a TOTAL waste of time unless and until they understand their center.

And, I'll guarantee your hitters don't.

And, you're costing them the benefits of it.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Linear,

The farm you are concerned about giving away has been tilled for about the last 30 years.

There is much more to the swing than just the core.

Much much more.

That is the major problem with "the theory" - and that has been lacking from this "theory" from day 1. It is the "theory's" biggest flaw. IMO.

In less than 12 hours you've slipped off the ladder and are now reaching for rung #1.

Linear,

Another demotion? LOL - I have a funny feeling that my ladder is going to be hanging from the garage wall soon.


Your description of the core - and its importance to the swing is excellent IMO. But your theory has a major flaw. That is why I have never taken it very seriously.

quote:

And, the act of loading the hands and arms is "in the way of" loading/unloading the center

Your close to what I feel...the pattern of hand and arm movement is vital for some in assuring they will load the center. Shoulders load but hands are vital nuerologically in the sequence and rythym. It is subtle. Hands ****, hips coil, bend at waist, elbow internally rotates. Your right ..the hands don't do the loading ;they help initiate the move. You don't have to kill the feel in the hands to load the upper body.

Brain talks to hands not elbow. Hands conrol the bat tip and its path initially is counter to the hip rotation and this promotes connection. Better connection is a quicker/faster bat

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

And, I'll guarantee your hitters don't.

And, you're costing them the benefits of it.

And I guarantee you know nothing about us but that history of success you can verify.

Now, if you now type that you believe in breakdowns, what do you breakdown since you don't believe in teaching hands/arms. You now going to suggest you do? Only the base is left for you.

Sorry - added this:

I once pmed you our Hitter's Sheet. It contained a lengthy description of core and load. Rewrite history? BTW, others here who have had discussions of hitting have asked and I have shared. They can verify this handout.

The lack of emphasis - and in many cases - the complete disregard of the hands/wrists/arms - is the major flaw of the "theory".

They need to work on that critical oversight. IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
The lack of emphasis - and in many cases - the complete disregard of the hands/wrists/arms - is the major flaw of the "theory".

They need to work on that critical oversight. IMO.

While standing on that first runge, I noticed you standing there as well. We agree one hundred percent.

CoachB,

I am on the ground - again. LOL

Please do not fall on me.

Richard,

Check your PM...

David

Let me pick a non starter who could play for you if he could hit. (the no bat ss, 2B, C; the position you don't have a player for and will choose among 2 or 3)

Give me 3 months, 3 visits per week.

I bet he's in your lineup. I bet before the season is over he hits higher than 9th. Don't know your team but I bet I can get him #7 or better. And, if he's a soph I bet he leads your team in some offensive categories by the time he's a senior.

quote:

Brain talks to hands not elbow.

Yes, because the hands have ruled body actions since birth.....This is the muscle memory cycle that needs to be broken, IMO......Train the brain to ignore the hands and arms and speak to other body parts.....The hands and arms should connect to those other body parts the brain will then be speaking to.....If you are successful in doing this, a new awareness, and level, of "bat quickness" will prevail....

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
CoachB,

I am on the ground - again. LOL

Please do not fall on me.

I'm a big guy but I bounce! LOL!

I do agree that with hitting there are some factors of the swing that are "results" of the swing. Linear suggest that the hands/arms are. I believe that "finish" is a result. Players often ask me whether they should release on finish. To each their own. The ball is long been either hit or missed by that point on the swing. The factor on "finish" that are important are that belly button and balance.

quote:

It can't be done at the rate it needs to be done by 95% of all amateur hitters and still properly load/unload the center.

It is all about when you start....timing...there is not limit on when you start. They must understand and execute the move of course.

Are we saying that we are teaching something that is suboptimum because we assume they cannot do it?

Watch the bat tip of Ruth, Aaron,.....they were simply trying to do what Olerud was doing...get some pop at the bat barrel on all pitch locations....move some barrel through the zone.

***** defined bat drag I guess. It was a great observation. When his model took away all arm and hand action he made sure bat drag would be around along time. ( I am not talking about a big pump...watch Pujols, Cabrerra, Bergmon,. He defined scap load....great...now lets talk about how to scap load better because it isn't happening at the park like you say often enough and kids are dragging like crazy.

CoachB25,

Just an aside - I love the "Qualities of a Knight" intro you have on your team's website.

That is really good stuff IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
CoachB25,

Just an aside - I love the "Qualities of a Knight" intro you have on your team's website.

That is really good stuff IMO.

Thanks! I have good kids that adhear to those principles. BTW, the coaches you see there with me were former College All-Americans. I have a top notch staff of great people.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

Yes, because the hands have ruled body actions since birth.....This is the muscle memory cycle that needs to be broken, IMO......Train the brain to ignore the hands and arms and speak to other body parts.....The hands and arms should connect to those other body parts the brain will then be speaking to.....If you are successful in doing this, a new awareness, and level, of "bat quickness" will prevail....

Bluedog,

Linear mentioned that this "theory" is relevant to all sports. You seem to agree.

I would strongly suggest to you that - if you are playing football or hockey - and you "train your brain" to ignore the hands and arms - you will be knocked unconscious - quickly.

quote:

It is all about when you start....timing...

I don't think so.....IMO, it's about quickness.....May I explain....

I hear Coaches all the time say, get your hands through quicker.....This is very confusing to a hitter as they are already getting their hands through as quick as they can.....There is no quicker for them.....If they start earlier, they don't have time to recognize the pitch.....

Great hitters start their swing very late and have the quickness to get the bat around to the ball, anyway.....They do not depend on the hands and arms to do so.....The quickness they need comes from much bigger muscles.....

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
... It is all about when you start....timing...there is no limit on when you start...

Well, talk about a sentence that can be interpreted 50 different ways by 50 different people.

I believe I know what you mean. I also believe most don't.

There definately is a limit to when you can start because it greatly affects the quality of the load/unload.

Not my intention to offend a “kid”. I thought I was addressing a 22-23 year old but I must be mistaken. Sorry. Hard to find “truth” and facts on the Internet sometimes.

IMO - The best analogy - as it regards this discussion - combining quickness,speed,power and accuracy would be boxing.

Having boxed for many years, I can say with absolute certainty that the "core" is the foundation.

However, deemphasizing the strength and use of the hands and arms - leads to a quick knockout - and severe bruising.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
...I would strongly suggest to you that - if you are playing football or hockey - and you "train your brain" to ignore the hands and arms - you will be knocked unconscious - quickly.

Ladder is being walked back to the garage.

Nothing like stretching what has been said into something that doesn't exist.

quote:

Bluedog,

Linear mentioned that this "theory" is relevant to all sports. You seem to agree.

Really?.......I don't remember saying this.....I try really hard to stay on the topic of hitting since that's the only area I have spent countless number of hours researching and using trial and error to prove or disprove theory..........

Maybe you can show me where I went astray?......

Linear,

You got to fix that major flaw. You would be doing the theory a great service if you did. IMO.

The ladder has been hung up - but I am still worried about Coach B flattening me when he comes tumbling down.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
IMO - The best analogy - as it regards this discussion - combining quickness,speed,power and accuracy would be boxing.

Having boxed for many years, I can say with absolute certainty that the "core" is the foundation.

However, deemphasizing the strength and use of the hands and arms - leads to a quick knockout - and severe bruising.

LOL

Not a bad analogy. Just not complete. You can swing at your opponent anytime you want. You don't have to swing if you don't want.

But when you have to swing your bat is dictated to you by the pitcher. Or the umpire.

Bluedog,

Sorry about that then.

Just dont teach that stuff to any kid playing a contact sport.
If you do - they will get hurt.

quote:

Bluedog:

I’m confused.

THop, good post......I agree, you are confused...

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

Not a bad analogy. Just not complete. You can swing at your opponent anytime you want. You don't have to swing if you don't want.

But when you have to swing your bat is dictated to you by the pitcher. Or the umpire.

Linear,

I dont want to divert away from the hitting discussion - so I apologize for that analogy. Let me just say it sounds like you have never boxed.

Again - sorry for going a bit off course there - I thought the analogy might help.

It appears I've boxed as much as you've hit.

LOL

That was good!

quote:

Just dont teach that stuff to any kid playing a contact sport.
If you do - they will get hurt.

Game, diversions such as the above is exactly why your posts are most of the time meaningless.......Your post has absolutely nothing to do with anything Linear, or myself, has said on this thread.....More to the point, your post has nothing at all to do with hitting....

Bluedog,

It appears as if you arent getting it.

Read all of the stuff again - about the interaction and importance of the core and the arms/hands/wrists - and get back to me. We are all talking about that interaction - with varying perspectives.

Take your time reading it all so it sinks in.

Game, I see you have apologized for the diversion........

I, too, like boxing.....I consider it the purest form of sport that exists.....JMO...

quote:

We are all talking about that interaction - with varying perspectives.

Not so......We are talking about hitting....Plain and simple.....

I am thrilled that you like boxing.

Now read the stuff again - concentrate - and see if you can connect the dots.

Game, you are the only one talking about perspectives involving other sports.....You are having a conversation with yourself, as usual......

Linear - and Coaches/everyone else here,

I am enjoying the conversation. Thought provoking.
But could you please get the Bluedog to stop barking.

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

He is different than most.

He connects differently.

But, this is mightly good rotation with connection.

Right click, choose "save target as", play it frame by frame.

There is NO arm action in this swing.

Game, as per hitting into a heavy bag......Not a good thing to do if a hitter is driving the bat into the bag with their hands and arms...But, if the driving force is the shoulders (big muscles), it is a great hitting drill.....It's all about understanding and the correct use of drills....This is the area you are deficient.....

Bluedog,

We are straying - but as far as the hitting bag goes - as I said two years ago - I think it is insane for youth players.

The risk/reward of using a 200 pound bag of sand and a bat as a training technique is crazy.

It has nothing to do with understanding a drill and everything to do with exposing youth players to serious potential injury.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:


Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

He is different than most.

He connects differently.

But, this is mightly good rotation with connection.

Right click, choose "save target as", play it frame by frame.

There is NO arm action in this swing.

I see arm action everywhere. As well as alot of other great "actions".

I think it is something that we will never agree on - but the discussion is interesting - I think.

Its

I've detected an effort to "get along" by you.

It is appreciated.

But, you are completely wrong about the heavy bag.

Think about "throwing" the bat with out releasing it. Not that that is a good hitting cue but it will help you understand how it feels when a good swing hits the bag.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:


Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

He is different than most.

He connects differently.

But, this is mightly good rotation with connection.

Right click, choose "save target as", play it frame by frame.

There is NO arm action in this swing.

I see arm action everywhere. As well as alot of other great "actions".

I think it is something that we will never agree on - but the discussion is interesting - I think.

You haven't had time to play it frame by frame. Do so. Notice where the barrel remains as the rear elbow is lowered. It did not generate ANY batspeed. It's still where it stared.

Hitting into a heavy bag also helps explain the insignificance of strong hands and/or wrists........If the big muscles are swinging the bat, the hitter feels nothing in the hands and/or wrists when the bat hits the bag.......

Linear,

You and I have gone back and forth on this one in the past.

I think it is very dangerous for youth players.

One wrong swing - and you have a serious injury.

Just not worth it - and I hope there are other, safer ways to train the swing for the young player. IMO.

Palease.

Its

I am with you regarding "hitting the bag"--- all I see in this exercise is shocking the joints and most kids prior to 16 do not have their joints solidified as yet thus "jelly" is being jolted in the joints. The body is not meant to take such blows and jolts.

These are not my thoughts but those of a ortho/sports doc who handles pro teams and was my kids sports doc as they grew up


Sorry Linear buy once again I must differ with you despite the fact you think I know "squat"=== perhaps in the year of 2006 (Year of the Old Codger) you will learn that some of old codgers know what the heck we are talking about.

Richard,

What program do you use for frame-by-frame viewing?

David

You can download Quicktime FREE from apple.com.

The right and left arrow keys will toggle the clip frame by frame.

quote:

These are not my thoughts but those of a ortho/sports doc who handles pro teams and was my kids sports doc as they grew up

Great example of how MLB hitting technique has been misunderstood for many years......The Dark Ages are over for those who want to spend the time to learn.....There is a place to learn this stuff.....It's easy to find......

Orthos repair injuries.

Why would you ask him how to swing.

Until he's spent some time training athletes all they do is guess on training issues. Educated guesses but not very good ones.

Of course, an uneducated (training wise) doctor will say "stop doing that".

Once he's learned how to do it he will say something completely different.

If you've every chopped wood you would understand how to create momentum of the axe without causing an injury when you hit the tree.

TR

The ladder. Get it out.

Linear,

For a youth athlete - "learning the swing" - the risk/reward equation of that training aid is a no go - IMO.

Let me just say - if Coach B - AND - TRhit both fall off the ladder - and onto me - I am dead.

What's a ladder?

According to Game, I guess youngsters shouldn't help their Dads chop wood.......Not with an axe, anyway.....That doggone axe stops when it hits wood....But, maybe, just maybe, if the youngster used his shoulders to power the swing of the axe instead of his wrists/hands/arms, he might just get the wood chopped, and.........Never mind, this takes some thought and theory proving....Too much thinking.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

It is all about when you start....timing...

I don't think so.....IMO, it's about quickness.....May I explain....

I hear Coaches all the time say, get your hands through quicker.....This is very confusing to a hitter as they are already getting their hands through as quick as they can.....There is no quicker for them.....If they start earlier, they don't have time to recognize the pitch.....

Great hitters start their swing very late and have the quickness to get the bat around to the ball, anyway.....They do not depend on the hands and arms to do so.....The quickness they need comes from much bigger muscles.....

Itsinthegame, my ladder has been put up so many times that I now use a step ladder instead of an extension ladder. (LOL)

Bluedog, Agreed that statements about "get your hands quicker" is not a good analogy to use. IT promotes "casting." You might call it disconnected. Agreed that the core muscles help make the hands quicker as they stay "connected" to the core. This still doesn't explain how to get those hands "set" or ready to work in conjunction with the core. However, I understand that on hands, we will never agree. Agree on timing as well. Good hitters "let the ball get to them." Again, we drill this. Know drills aren't big in Linear's agenda but here goes ours. We place a Jugs pitching machine screen in front of a hitter. We take a plate and put a diagonal line on it from front point (batter's side) to half-plate (opposite side of plate.) Now, a tosser throws balls to positions on the plate. Inside, down the middle, and opposite. The batter works on letting the ball get to them and then hit the ball in the general area where the ball is thrown. We add cones as "targets for success." Well, that's how we drill that concept.

No theory here, just another drill that Linear will disapprove of.

Linear, those arms DO move in that clip as they move with shoulders. They don't stay fixed in one position with the body! They move forward and then the trunk joins in.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Know drills aren't big in Linear's agenda but here goes ours.

You're like my wife. If my son has a car accident while going to a party it's the party's fault. I'm not sure whose fault it is if he has an accident on the way to church. I have no problem with drills. I just think the drill should resemble the swing.

quote:

Linear, those arms DO move in that clip. They don't stay fixed in one position with the body! They move forward and then the body joins in.

OH MY GOD. This is completely false and proves you didn't look frame by frame.

He lowers his high elbow down by what most call the slot. I don't believe in elbow slotting so don't take this wrong. But, for those of you who do, his elbow lowers near the slot. Take the video frame by frame until you're at that spot.........The barrel hasn't moved but very very slightly. ABSOLUTELY NO SWING HAS BEGUN. He has done something very important but he hasn't begun swinging yet. NOW, look how far and how much the body rotates before the barrel ever moves from the inital or nearly initial launch point.

I want to see you duplicate that body rotation with the barrel in the spot it is for him and then swing with your arms. YOU CAN'T DO IT.

Now, wait, the other day, you said pictures are worthless when evaluating a swing. Isn't frame by frame just pictures? I don't need to see it frame by frame as you say when you 'show me the video." Look at the hands, they begin the swing before the trunk begins rotation. Now, the upper body rotates as we have said all along but those hands DO start a movement before the trunk joins in. Argue all you want on that.

Oh, the drill stuff. Again, as I posted earlier, what can you possibly drill after the core since that is all you believe in?

Bluedog,

Let me keep it simple for you - because you are getting all tangled up.

Swinging an object at another immovable object will damage your joints. If you want to chop wood for 20 years - be my guest. Your joints will be messed up when all is said and done. Even if you do it perfectly - your joints will be damaged.

Swinging a baseball bat into a 200 pound bag of sand is a recipe for disaster.

It isnt very complicated - and most people dont have to think about this for very long.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...I don't need to see it frame by frame

Watching a still picture is worthless. Watching still frames advance one by one is priceless.

You are unbelievable. We need to continue this discussion. Maybe a parent or administrator in your area will witness this.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Bluedog,

Let me keep it simple for you - because you are getting all tangled up.

Swinging an object at another immovable object will damage your joints. If you want to chop wood for 20 years - be my guest. Your joints will be messed up when all is said and done. Even if you do it perfectly - your joints will be damaged.

Swinging a baseball bat into a 200 pound bag of sand is a recipe for disaster.

It isnt very complicated - and most people dont have to think about this for very long.

TRANSLATION:

I have my belief and no facts will change my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Look at the hands, they begin the swing before the trunk begins rotation...

I love it when I win.

Of course, I don't have any trophies to show for it. I'm too involved helping kids be better while the "lineup card maker outer" is filling his mantle.

The hands are virutally stationery when the rotation begins and they remain so for a couple of frames after rotation. I count 5 frames of rotation before the hands do anything.

Linear,

When I see a fact that proves to me that slamming a bat into a 200 pound bag of sand is safe - I will reconsider.

Until such time - it is a no go for youth players IMO.



And tell Bluedog - Axe analogies wont cut it. (no pun intended)

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...I don't need to see it frame by frame

Maybe a parent or administrator in your area will witness this.

And everyone said you didn't have a sense of humor. They interest have one thing in common. They like winning 24 games/year. Of course, you could always come over an apply. So, thus far in this discussion, I've listed drills we do and you've listed nothing. Drills Teacherman Drills?

B25? Where'd you go?

I'll decline even if they offer it to me. I can't afford it.

But, you better learn to study video.

Pay attention to what that center does before the hands do anything.

I can give you some "center drills" if you'd like.

I will agree to hold the ladder up for Coach B - for $12 per hour. Plus travel expenses.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Drills Teacherman Drills?

There you are.

Coy attempt at changing the subject to look better?

Show me where Pujols hands are moving prior to rotation. Please.

CoachB25

Did you expect the two _"I GOT ALL THE ANSWERS, I AM NEVER WRONG" guys, Linear and Blue Dog to give examples ?--- they have none--they just regurgitate from their GURU and his "TEACHING SITE"

Coach -- a happy new year to you and your family

I will also agree to hold TRHit's ladder up - for slightly less - but only because I know him for so long.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
CoachB25

Did you expect the two _"I GOT ALL THE ANSWERS, I AM NEVER WRONG" guys, Linear and Blue Dog to give examples ?--- they have none--they just regurgitate from their GURU and his "TEACHING SITE"

Coach -- a happy new year to you and your family

I was just informed TR doesn't even own a ladder.

Linear - this isnt shaping up very well. IMO.

Coach B is on rung #1 - and falling.

I have fallen off the ladder - and am laying on the ground - about to be crushed.

And TR doesnt even have a ladder.

I fear we need a quick trip to Home Depot and a pickup truck.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
B25? Where'd you go?

I'll decline even if they offer it to me. I can't afford it.

But, you better learn to study video.

Pay attention to what that center does before the hands do anything.

I can give you some "center drills" if you'd like.

Guys, I don't need anyone to hold my ladder up. It now is down to two steps and a jump.

Where'd I go. I'm trying to corrupt kids in my classroom by teaching the Civil War. In other words, I'm doing my lesson plans for the next 2 weeks. Here we have to turn them in. NO fly by night stuff here. Still, I'm going to let the North win again. Just as I thought though no interest in really doing the job. Theory v reality. You are entertaining though. You are the master of the redirection. I've requested several times for you to address issues on hitting and yet, you seem to be the one changing directions. Drills?

Coach B25
Another job opportunity - gone.

Personally - I am thinking about switching to a rope ladder - and a thick padded mat - so when I hit the ground - it wont hurt so much.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Pujols hands start moving just about the time his front heel hits the ground. Why? because that is when his mind (timing) says to let them go. They then aggressively help move the barrel towards the ball. The hips help do a couple of things. 1. they rotate to help with power. 2. They rotate out of the way so the hands can make an aggressive palm up palm down move and get the barrel going towards the ball.

The feet, shoulders, legs etc. also play their parts in the swing.

Is there anyone here that thinks that the hands are just along for the ride in the swing and that they provide no power to the swing?

You see exactly what I see. While that movement isn't "big" it is there as I see it. BE CAREFUL, LINEAR MAY WANT YOUR BOSSES TO FIRE YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

Is there anyone here that thinks that the hands are just along for the ride in the swing and that they provide no power to the swing?

Please count me in for a resounding NO.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Coach B25
Another job opportunity - gone.

Personally - I am thinking about switching to a rope ladder - and a thick padded mat - so when I hit the ground - it wont hurt so much.

LOL

Just took my step ladder back to the garage. No chance for me to get above that first runge. Hopeless all is hopeless. GUESS I'LL HAVE TO USE AN ESCALATOR. lol!

Just trying to get CoachB25 to acknowledge that Pujols hands do not start his swing as he said earlier. He claims they move first.

You are right, scout. They start to move about the time the heel hits the ground which is about 5 frames into his rotation. And the barrel hasn't moved much at all until the rotation starts.

So, where is all the arm action that TomG and Swingbuster and CoachB25 believe in?

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25
...You see exactly what I see. While that movement isn't "big" it is there as I see it. BE CAREFUL, LINEAR MAY WANT YOUR BOSSES TO FIRE YOU.

You are such a suck up. What happened to they move prior to rotation? Now you say they move at heel drop. Which is about 5 frames after rotation begins.

And, I'm not after anyones job. But, it would be nice if people would recognize the state of high school baseball coaching.

I think some of it has been exposed here.

Didn't say that the hands start the swing. Again, you have our hitting sheet since I'm sure that you copied it. It states that the upper body moves as a unit. Earlier I also stated, "Linear, those arms DO move in that clip. They don't stay fixed in one position with the body! They move forward and then the trunk joins in." I do not believe that anywhere in here it says that I said that the hands went first, in relationship to the whole swing. Here is an interesting question. If the hands move in conjunction with the whole upper body in load, then are the hands moving? LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...They move forward and then the trunk joins in.

That would be first to me.

I may have fallen off the ladder - laying on the ground - crushed by both CoachB and TR - but at least I answered the question. LOL



I need some Advil

Linear, be care of the name calling. You TOOL you. LOL! bbscout, he can't answer questions with answers only questions with other statements or name calling and he said he won.

Boyz, this has been fun and Linear too. Have to go corrupt some more youth. This time my kid. She can't hit either. LOL!

BYW, Happy New Year to Everyone! May 2006 bring you all much happiness and health.

I just edited this post for spelling and made a mistake.

No desire to change anything. But, I'm retyping from memory. Please add what I forget.

In the high level swing that we all strive to achieve, yes, the hands are along for the ride. The swing we want and hope to take against the pitch we're expecting will have the hands along for the ride.

Check out the Pujols clip. Hands are along for the ride. Check out frames 9 -13. Hands maintain their same relationship to the body. All the way to contact.

I've always said more strength is better than less strength. But, hand strength has nothing to do with executing a high level swing.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

I've always said more strength is better than less strength. But hand strength has little to do with executing the perfect high level swing.

Linear - IMO - You are getting there - in small increments.

Now - what about wrist and arm strength?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Linear, I use frame by frame just like you and many others. What you are watching is a guy (Pujols) who is using his hips,legs, back, shoulders and hands to his best advantage.

What I would like you to try is this....set balls on a tee at your local field and hit as many as you would like until you feel that you have hit your best bolt. Measure how far the ball goes. Then take your top or bottom hand off the bat completely and hit as many balls as you want and then measure how far the ball goes using only one hand in the swing.

The distance measured between the two will not even be remotely close.

That is a totally riduculous experiment that has nothing to do with what the hands offer in a swing.

That being said, you and I both know a guy who can hit the ball 250'+ off a T, with his lead arm only.

That's pretty sporty. And the hands have nothing to do with it.

And, as this guy says, you have to "become one" with the bat. You and the bat are one unit. And, there is one move to the ball by that "one" unit.

The hands are not given any specific role. They are part of the "whole". They have their role just like everything else....to glue everything together into one. But, you'll never have a high level swing until your entire body works as one.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
It would only be ridiculous to someone who was deathly afraid that it would mess up their belief system.

It's not ridiculous to someone who has little understanding of how the body works as a unit.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

The hands are not given any specific role. They are part of the "whole". They have their role just like everything else....to glue everything together into one. But, you'll never have a high level swing until your entire body works as one.

You need strong glue.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
George Brett could hit the ball close to 300 feet with a full swing off a tee. If you can find a guy who uses only his lead arm and swings a standard 34" 31 oz wood bat and says he can hit the ball 250 feet on the fly, I will show up with some cash to bet. I am not talking about the phony "V" grip. I am talking about a one hand swing with the other hand not touching the bat from start to finish.

I'll get back to you.

You add "on the fly". I know what I've been told but I don't know whether it was on the fly or after roll. Either way, if it's true it's VERY strong.

And, I'll check the V grip thing but I believe it is not involved.

Talking about the glue and the parts and creating "one". That is exactly what ALL of the body parts do. And, if you have a strength deficit in any part, your whole isn't as good. So, strength overall is important.

But, I have to tell you about my mattress. Several years ago for Christmas I bought these "Sleep number" mattresses for our family. They are wonderful.

But, I wasn't home when they were delivered and the left everything in my front yard.......In long narrow boxes that resembled 2 X 12's about 8 feet long.

Well, I took them inside and started assembling the parts.

I thought I got took. The boxes (used to be box springs) were made of very very light plastic material and looked very weak. Flimsey even. However, when you put them together as a unit, they are strong as hell.

The hands play their role in creating a very strong box. They do not go to the ball. They do not swing the bat. They, along with the arms and shoulders provide connection of the bat to the rotating body. When done right, they do so with no slack or slop.

Similar to my mattress, the parts come together to form a strong unit. Breaking the unit by moving the arms and letting them go on their own, greatly weakens the whole.

As you know, I own a business that involves customers that like to gamble.

Story is a guy in Wisconsin bet someone he could hit a golf ball over 1000 yards in one stroke.

Well, when the money got right he took them to Lake Michigan in January and he hit the ball over the ice and it may still be going.

Similar story, different twist.

quote:

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.

This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times

A slightly different twist.

I can assure you that Mr. Pujols would prefer to have his hands,wrists and forearms as opposed to those of Dal Maxvill or Bud Harrelson.

quote:
Where is the "arm action" in this swing?



Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.

This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times
Posts: 424 | Location: Selma, Alabama | Registered: November 16, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

quote:

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.


This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

No this is not hand and arm action. Scap load and rotation cause it.

quote:

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times

First of all, HR derby swings are not the equivalent of game swings.

Secondly, I have acknowledged and so has N Y M A N that Bonds, Sheffield and others have arm action in their swing. N Y M A N has proven that tht does not exist. Your interpretation of his HR derby clips is seriously flawed. Maybe because he has proven that the Hands Back Hitter teaches anything but good swing mechanics?????

I have also written a good post here explaining that that is an "add on" after they learned good connected rotation. I explained the difference between quickness and speed. And that speed without quickness is worthless. And, that there is a trade off by ALL hitters in that they soon realize that they have to 'shorten up' to get the barrel to the ball. This shortening up means little to no arm action. At some point in their trial and error development they have mastered the rotation from the center and they "add on" what they are capable of adding without losing quickness.

But, for you or anyone else to use 'arm action' theory as a viable hitting theory is completely destructive to young amateurs. As I said in that other post. They may have immediate gains at their current level of competition. But, as they go up the food chain, the arm action hitting will be their demise.

In this particular clip of Pujols, that you claim shows arm action, there is none. None by your terms, the cocking and tipping the bat and then changing it the other direction by the hands and arms.

What Pujols does, is load his scap and then rotate. There is no arm action that you like to claim. Watch the scap load. Pay attention to where the bat head is at the height of his scap load. It is in the fully cocked position. Then, while in that position, the rotationg starts. There is absolutely no arm action that involves tipping and then untipping the bat. the scap load tips it. The rotation untips it. Yes, he lowers his elbow. All hitters have to lower it to swing.

As for the elbow lowering and giving the appearance that the arms are doing something, they are. They are working in conjunction with the players posture to set the swing plane. They are not accelerating the bat. Acceleration of the bat starts and ends with load/unload of the center.

A rear view shows the plane change to be about double what you see on the side view better. There are important missing frames about bat position before his coil

I agree with all you said but deep into the details of the "how to load your scaps". I know that a partially pronated top hand and a barrel out of launch plane toward vertical facilitates the rear elbow internal rotation. The more complete the internal rotation the stroger and more connected the external rotation/ slotting.

Now lets give Mankin some credit here......the bat tip path helps strengthen connection of the lead arm by applying forces in and back to turn against priming the torso. It also helps and insures the inside out path of the hands CHP.

I would bow down to ****** if they would just acknowledge that Mankin has some of this physics right about the upper body.

I edited my above post to say and I'll repeat, tht torque has been proven to not exist by N Y M A N S simulations.

Proven. Nothing to discuss.

Other than how the continuation on the nonsense sets back youth hitters by years.

The movement you see is a simple setting of the swing plane. There is no significant torque that is instrumental in batspeed development. Nothing that helps the hitter be quicker.

It is simply a move that has to be done since the hands start high. You have to get on plane. What you see gets hitters on plane. There is no significant contribution toward bat speed. Proven. Over and over and over and over and yet you and other still talk about it as if it exists.

Swing,

The "theory" has major holes in it. Hence - the selective editing.

He has - IMO - backed himself into a very tight corner.

Its

Further proof that when you're looking to verify your beliefs, instead of searching for the truth, proof and facts are thrown out the window.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:...If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?

Well, first of all they aren't holding back. They are loaded back and they are waiting for the energy to flow to them.

Secondly, another example of literal interpretation of something that is true but misinterpreted to support your belief system.

There is very little "separation" between the upper and lower body in hitting. Pitching, yes. The more the better. However, hitting is reactionery. You don't have time for a lot of separation. When you say swing, you'd better swing or the barrel will be late. This is most certainly true.

But, when you watch video you'll see that the lower body does move before the upper body. Too much separation and you have slack or slop that has to be removed.
But, most of this separation you see is the between the upper and lower body. Check out how the upper body works as one.

You surely aren't saying the hips don't lead. Of course they do and I'm sure you agree.

But, watch how the upper body forms the box and how it all turns together........as one. If th e upper body works as one then the arms aren't going off on their own, bleeding energy from the chain.

Be patient scout. I have 5 or 6 asking me questions at a time. I'll get to everyone. I have no reason to avoid anyone.

Linear,

I do like the way you describe the "slop/slack" in the swing - and I think you are 100% correct about that.

As a slight offshoot - it is exactly this "slop/slack" in youth players that has caused me to so adamantly argue against the heavy bag drill.

My assumption is that the students - are students for a reason. They are still learning how to develop an effective swing - and that they do in fact have this "slop/slack" in their swing.

That "slop/slack" and the use of a 200 pound bag of sand and a bat is what concerns me about that drill.

A bit off track - I know. But just wanted to elaborate a bit.

Scout

5 frames is 1/6 of a second.

Ever wonder how a blind works? Yes, a window blind.

All I know is that if I pull on it and release, it winds up pretty quickly.

As does the iron cord. I saw my wife do it once.

What if a tetherball pole had the ability to rotate at a very high rpm? It would yank the cord and wind it around the pole very quickly.

Think you could throw the ball around the pole as fast....

Nope.

And neither can your arms swing a bat as fast as your body can rotate one.

What if the pole had hands? Do you think they would contribute?

Maybe you should think about rotating so fast that the hands have no chance to help.

quote:

There is no significant contribution toward bat speed. Proven. Over and over and over and over and yet you and other still talk about it as if it exists

I agree again that THT ( top hand pulling backwards doesn't happen for me.

The hands **** early insuring the knob comes out to the oppo box...thats hand action

The bottom hand works under the top taking the barrel out of plane in the stride so that at foot plant the plane change takes the bat barrel back, and flatter as the hips engage. This serves to get the hips a few frames ahead. True connect IS GETTING THE HIPS A FEW FRAMES AHEAD or the SHOULDERS A FEW FRAMES BEHIND . This bat barrel moving down to 45 and in behind the head has a force( no doubt). The direction of this force is opposite the hip turn force. THIS HELPS CONNECTION and insures a rotational hand path. CHP that does exist. Without a CHP the only ball you can hit the center of is an inside pitch that you hit early and out front. What pitch can most players hit...you guessed it.

Why do 90% of all golfers slice the ball...they hit the outside of it. Why? they don't know how to position the club at the top to make and inside /out stroke that matches the hip turn. Why don't golf training aids work on lower body turn...because pros have long known that if you are not in the right position at the top then you cannot fix it during the swing no matter how hard you turn. You just slice it farther. Is the slice the real problem...no the lack of power is the problem because you cannot compress a ball hitting the outside part.

quote:

What if a frog had wings?

He wouldnt bump his a$$ every time he jumped..

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

What if a frog had wings?

My guess, the NY Mets would sign the frog to a 3 year deal.

To test your team's hand path and hitting efficiency chart the ball flights at BP. All things equal there should be as many oppo gap power shots as there are pull gap shots in a random group of pitches. Chart the team and tell me how many players hit the center of the back of the ball. That will tell you how many get their bat barrel square to the ball flight vs how many are quick but still dragging the bat. You can stand at the mound and see how many hide their hands at toe touch and learn the same thing.

Linear...I have taught the same thing you say and it works for 90 % as you say. It works better than what they were doing. Would I start a 10 year old of mine doing it again ....no way.

Would I teach the girls softball team that tomorrow or a LL team that I had little time with...you bet.

Us dads want and think our kids can be better than that 90% don't we

Maybe because he has proven that the Hands Back Hitter teaches anything but good swing mechanics?????

Ops missed that punch....

I thought ****** said you need to load and carry/ maintain that load into foot plant. I thought they said to mimimize stride momentum and learn to turn.

Thanks we have done both....and describe that objective in the Assembly Guide and Tips for use.

I get one of these testimonials most days...the HBH must be better than a PlayStation. They play with what we buy. Not too many kids are sitting around watching Hitting CDs or writing on this forum.

"Our son already loves the HBH and I'm hopeful that will motivate him to practice alot at home between camp sessions."

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
I thought N Y M A N said you need to load and carry/maintain that load into foot plant. I thought they said to mimimize stride momentum and learn to turn...

Not really. Never heard him say "maintain that load into foootplant." I've heard him say "rotate into footplant".

And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant.

I'm sure you saw his clip comparing your demonstration of the HBH to a very good hitters game swing.

It's very telling.

BTW, for the record, there is no such thing as a load, as in carry or maintain the load. It is loading or unloading. Nothing in between. For the sake of brevity I may have said something similar. That is why I usually write load/unload together.

quote:

I'm sure you saw his clip comparing your demonstration of the HBH to a very good hitters game swing

Yep and I saw his drills where you rotate with your back foot staying down flat on the ground.

What made that good was that he thought of it..otherwise it seems far from a MLB swing or any other for that matter.

Conclusions...drills don't look like MLB swings. U of GA uses stop and go, walk up drills,and others daily in the offseason.

Lame stuff he post.......in a censored site. You got bumped too ?? Did you go back on bended knee?

"there is no such thing as carry the load "?

Who says what exist...seen Arod long stride...where is the load during this shift?

"And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant." 0.2 sec is shorter than 2.0


Independant thought changes the world...........invented the light bulb...

Linear..tick tick tick

Did he post MLB game swings against Engishbeys 21 drills to teach hitting and say they were doing people harm?

Why?

And why are posting from a site that will not even let you spell his name? wow!

No, my ban was not self-imposed.

And it was not the first time.....nor second....maybe third or fourth.

But, whatever he does with my posting privileges has nothing to do with his knowledge, nor my respect for it.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
Linear..tick tick tick

Did he post MLB game swings against Engishbeys 21 drills to teach hitting and say they were doing people harm?

Why?

And why are posting from a site that will not even let you spell his name? wow!

I must be dense. I don't get this entire post. Splain it for me.

quote:

nor my respect for it

nor my respect for it

What about for HIM?

2. Don't need splainin..he posted a drill station swing against MLB game swing to slam someone elses work and censored any response

. Drills over emphasis certain things. 1000s of people like it . He had no reason to do what he did. Saving grace...very very few people know who he is ,,,,,,,,,or you or me.

They know Jessica Simpson though!

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

Yep and I saw his drills where you rotate with your back foot staying down flat on the ground.

One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those. Until you feel it, you may not get it. As long as you continue to use the wrong muscle set you'll continually rotate improperly.

quote:

you go back on bended knee?

I'll go back if allowed. My sons said they got in the other day. Now, the server is down. He has little tolerance for people who are both arrogant and ignorant as he says. I often times quality for one or the other. When I combine the two, like you do, he gets rid of me.

quote:

"there is no such thing as carry the load "?

I've heard him say carry the momentum. I may have said carry the load which is better said carrying the momentum while loading.

quote:

"And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant." 0.2 sec is shorter than 2.0

If that's what it's supposed to be then you need to work on it. However, that is 1/2 the time a hitter has to see the ball, decide whether to swing and execute his swing. That is way longer than a hitter has from footplant.

Most hitters do not understand the load/unload process. The first hitters to understand this will be the first to improve. Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

It concerns ‘bat speed’ vs ‘bat quickness’. I noted while visiting some of the other discussion boards that a good number of coaches believe that a batter my generate great bat speed but be slower getting the bat to the ball than a batter with less bat speed.

I have trouble understanding how two batters can launch the bat from the same position and the batter who generates less bat speed could get the bat to the same contact point quicker than the batter generating greater bat speed. Would someone help enlighten me on this subject?

Note: I define “launch position” as the position of the bat when shoulder rotation (and the swing) is initiated

Jack Mankin

quote:

One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those.

Oh...OK keep your back foot down and turn and turn. Now I get it.... It looks a lot like a MLB swing too. Show me the clips!! and splain.


Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

If you keep your lead elbow behind the belly button and keep it there until your stride foot lands you are in position to rotate from a connected position. I have watched the ball flight of 100s of kids after 20 swings improve dramatically.

Simple station for kids. First kid that used the first prototype won HR Derby against 300 plus in Montgomery...fact. Only 12 yo I knew in that city so it could not have been rigged.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
It concerns ‘bat speed’ vs ‘bat quickness’. I noted while visiting some of the other discussion boards that a good number of coaches believe that a batter my generate great bat speed but be slower getting the bat to the ball than a batter with less bat speed.

I have trouble understanding how two batters can launch the bat from the same position and the batter who generates less bat speed could get the bat to the same contact point quicker than the batter generating greater bat speed. Would someone help enlighten me on this subject?

Note: I define “launch position” as the position of the bat when shoulder rotation (and the swing) is initiated

Jack Mankin

What's your point, Mr. Mankin? Are you having a difficult time fitting this fact into your belief system?

quote:
One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those.


Oh...OK keep your back foot down and turn and turn. Now I get it.... It looks a lot like a MLB swing too. Show me the clips!! and splain.


Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

If you keep your lead elbow behind the belly button and keep it there until your stride foot lands you are in position to rotate from a connected position. I have watched the ball flight of 100s of kids after 20 swings improve dramatically. Actaully, it is improved on the first swing..it takes 20 to stop hitting with the hands and follow the rotation

Simple station for kids. First kid that used the first prototype won HR Derby against 300 plus in Montgomery...fact. Only 12 yo I knew in that city so it could not have been rigged.
Posts: 434 | Location: Selma, Alabama | Registered:

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those.

Oh...OK keep your back foot down and turn and turn. Now I get it.... It looks a lot like a MLB swing too. Show me the clips!! and splain.


Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

If you keep your lead elbow behind the belly button and keep it there until your stride foot lands you are in position to rotate from a connected position. I have watched the ball flight of 100s of kids after 20 swings improve dramatically.

Simple station for kids. First kid that used the first prototype won HR Derby against 300 plus in Montgomery...fact. Only 12 yo I knew in that city so it could not have been rigged.

Quite a difference between limiting what your back foot does to learn something else....versus.....teaching an improper load/unload.

One may be incomplete. The other is improper.

By the way, I think it is Jason Bay.....could be wrong, but there is a mlb player whose rear foot barely raises or goes about 1/2 the way of most hitters rear foot.

Finally, the feet are reactive to the hips. Kids can go "onto their toe" and not use their hips properly. Just as they can fan their knee to rotate versus force their knee open by rotating. Controlling one will give you a good indication of the other.

What does the improper load/unload that your device teaches you help with?

What I think is more and more obvious is it's not just the kids that don't understand the load/unload.

quote:

What does the improper load/unload that your device teaches you help with?

Few kids get to toe touch with the hands
coc-ked and their shoulder still loaded.

We teaching them to preload their shoulders and stride to balance. The lead elbow behind the belly button( and remaining bent to 90 degrees) is something they can see vs their bat position.

These kids have never gotten to a post stride position maintaining the upper body box with 1. bent elbow, 2.cocked bat, 3.elbow still behind belly button( loaded shoulders or front shoulder in at launch if your prefer). Their prior tenency was to mess the box up with barring, ect as they stride or never assume a reasonably good upper body position.

They learn to keep the box intact and relaxed as they shift. They land more connected and the ball appears and the stride has been taken( toe open to 45 degrees) so there is no stride momentum and they must turn for the hips to move the hands.

NOW...they are turning with the upper body in a better launch position than most have experienced and they do have some X angle at stride landing....another position they haven't felt.

Great thread.

Happy new Year.

As usual, bbscout nails the issue:

BB:"I count the same amount of frames as you do. The rotation is going and the hands are holding back. If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?"

it is probably impossible to get complete or near complete agreement on the details of what happens here, but in my opinion, Donny/buster describes it the best with arm action that results in the bottom hand working under/then into the plane.

I do not think this is just a "head start". This is optimizing both coil and connection and quickness, but even so is not just and "add on" as you learn the rest of the swing.

bbscout, you may have to be careful about that one arm tee drill, becvasue it IS possible to hit a long way by using a lot of lead arm extension to get a long swing radius like in golf, but this is nothing like the quicker swing needed for hitting.

teacherman says that n y m a n has disproved "THT" but actually,the reality is just the opposite. His rotational swing models actually demonstrated the most difficult thing to sort out which is that a back arm torquing force is applied during the swing, not just earlier in the pre-swing where it is fairly obvious. I will quote the N y m a n models that show this when i get back to my office computer.
teacherman also says that the arm action is a reaction to the scap and earlier/more proximal motions. This is not so. In the Pujols clip, when the bat uncoks it is via arm action. the back scap needs to stay loaded at this time. back scap action is not making the bat do this.Neither is the torso.

the guerrero clip shows the action nicely on a somewhat up (in and waist high,still maintaining box about til contact for this location) at yuothbaseballcoaching.com

teacherman says that you maintain the box. this is more true for up and in.less true as the location goes out and down.

one slight disagreement I have with donny is that there ARE golfing aides that work on breaking the spinning habit on the lower body - there is a spring loaded bar that fits between the knees that forces you to spread the knees,lead leg leading in the right sequence to support the same sort of hip turn as in the high level hitting swing swing.

more detail to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
...teacherman also says that the arm action is a reaction to the scap and earlier/more proximal motions. This is not so. In the Pujols clip, when the bat uncoks it is via arm action. the back scap needs to stay loaded at this time. back scap action is not making the bat do this.Neither is the torso.

For the record, I did not say this. Typical bull **** to cloud the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
...BB:"I count the same amount of frames as you do. The rotation is going and the hands are holding back. If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?"...

Geesh Tom do you have any intellectual integrity?

Why leave out my explanation of the torso and hands as one with minimal separation between the upper and lower halves?

Cause it may affect how you can frame the issue?

I can make my hands move without arm action and not use the lower body.....why can't you?

Because it doesn't fit the theory?

BTW, Tom, we're all still waiting for clips of the players you work with.......

intellectual integrity?

leave out my explanation

frame the issue?

Because it doesn't fit the theory?

still waiting for clips of the players you work with

incomplete movement vs improper movement

shows only the muscles necessary for an action

don't understand load/unload cycle

quickness is slower but gets there faster

I just read the stuff at http://www.batspeed.com cause the info is based on scientific research plus it's helped my hitting so far. BTW I nominate this thread to be in the Golden Forums.

quote:

BTW, Tom, we're all still waiting for clips of the players you work with.......

Linear,

Where are the clips of the players you work with ?


Scooter

quote:

MR3000, If you read too much on this thread, you will just put yourself in a slump. Smile

Good thing it's the offseason. I already made up my mind on how to hit anyway. So far my swing is becoming a lot quicker and smoother. I just read this for entertainment now.

The hands co-ck, that tips the bat forward, that levers the rear elbow so that it can internally rotate, as the lead elbow comes down to the pect muscle.

Now...the bat tip works from splitting the helmet downward behind the helmet to teh 45 degree launch slot we all use exerting a neg force counter to the forward force of the hips rotating into toe touch.

The lead elbow works up into the pitch plane and the rear elbow slots down. This torques the bat in the direction counter to the hip rotation( ( in an arc toward the catcher.

*** the neg force of the movement of the bat barrel behind the batter and inside the target line from the proper bat path gives the hips something to turn against. It primes the torso and gets the hips 4-5 frames in front of the upper body turn.

This hand, arm, elbow action is subtle but serves to increase torque and brings the knob out to the oppo box in the same circular path of the hips. The shoulders must turn to interface with the turning hips vs the knob to the ball straight hand path people teach that never totally links with the hips turn. It also makes it impossible to put the same swing on an outside pitch as an inside pitch.

This movement pattern maxes connection and angular displacement to the bat barrel( whip;pop) through the zone.

So...the hands are the initiator of a sequence that takes the bat barrel BACK. The elbow actions is defined as a reversing of relative positions... at initiation the lead elbow is by the side and the rear elbow is high and that becomes lead elbow up( in the pitch plane) and real elbow down( slots) sends the bat in the correct direction. The hands must be quiet and follow this pattern to set up a rotation connected to the core.

The bottom hand works underneath the top hand as the lead elbow come down to the body in the preswing.

Attempts to take the knob to the ball at initiation of the preswing will kill the swing. In that sense hands can be terrible. True hand action is late in the swing "hooking the hand path out in the reactionary part of the swing. It is hard to coach.

One word PUJOLS ..watch him , print this and see what he does.

The top hand cocking ( partially pronated) palm toward ground at initiation before the rear elbow internally rotates is the last time I mention hands when instructing.

Swingbuster, ANOTHER NOMINATION FOR "POST OF THE YEAR!"

bbscout, that video clip reminds me of what some describe as "the latest rage" in collegiate batting drills. In a cage when you are between classes without a practice partner, many schools are relying more and more on the tee drill where a ball is placed on a tee at one end of a 70 foot cage and another ball is placed on a tee at the other end of the cage. Players stand on a 2/4 (we use a 2x6) and trying to drive the ball the length of the cage to knock that other ball off of the tee. (BTW, to qualify "latest rage" - due to the fact that the last 2-3 college coaches I've heard speak mention/demonstrate this drill as a part of their presentation.)

bbscout, I understand. The 2x4 and 2/6 are "balance/finish" drills. However, we like them. Yes, we do a lot of tee work. One thing you have to emphasize to high school players is that the tee is VERY VALUABLE. Incoming freshman (especially) think that tee work is for little kids. I just wanted to share that drill and your video gave me an opportunity. If I post very much longer on this topic, posters will know all of the worthless drills we do. LOL!

I have enjoyed reading this thread for a while. Most everyone makes great points, some more eloquently than others. One thing that really keeps entering my mind is the way we analyze the heck out of every movement. Some out there could tell exactly how many times Nomar touches his batting gloves (when he was hitting well, I am surprised some did not try to teach this as well.) I love to analyze video as much as anyone else but I think that we often forget that we can achieve complicated results through simplifying what we teach. While correct mechanics are important, it is how we get kids to use and realize those mechanics that matter. Beautiful cage swings are just that. Keep it simple and try to get the optimal results through small basic changes (IF THEY ARE NEEDED).

Amen hsballcoach. I think swingbuster hit a home run with his description of the mechanics. However it is a complicated approach, maybe one us adults can learn and teach from. I have always taught that the hips rotate with the hands back at the shoulder area. I can see as a teacher what is being done correctly or incorrectly. I can then make those adjustments. The hands are the last part of the trigger for more than one reason. Timing is the biggest. If a hitter is quick and rotates for a fastball and his hands are moving to the ball, and suddenly he realizes it a change!!!. Then what? If his hands are back or delayed for 5 frames or whatever, he stills has a chance to make contact. If hs hands are out front too so, he'll miss or lunge. We must teach in real world situations as thats what our kids face. I still enjoy the technical jargon and the fabulous break down of every part of the mechanics of the swing. What a great site.

Coachric

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:


teacherman says that n y m a n has disproved "THT" but actually,the reality is just the opposite. His rotational swing models actually demonstrated the most difficult thing to sort out which is that a back arm torquing force is applied during the swing, not just earlier in the pre-swing where it is fairly obvious......

and

teacherman also says that the arm action is a reaction to the scap and earlier/more proximal motions. This is not so. In the Pujols clip, when the bat uncoks it is via arm action. the back scap needs to stay loaded at this time. back scap action is not making the bat do this.Neither is the torso.

Bravo!

IMO - The biggest flaw in the theory.

I alluded to our "Qualities of an Outstanding Hitter" handout earlier in this thread. To keep this discussion going and to try to keep it positive, I'll post the first 7 from that list. Then, we can discuss some of these aspects of the swing and move on.


1. It has to have a center or axis that can generate centrifugal force.
2. It has to have a principle of hands first – hands last! HOW? The upper body including shoulders and hands act as a unit in a slight negative rotation to initiate the load. Then, the body releases the load while the hands stay back. They stay back or let the ball get to the hitter in an attempt to try to avoid being fooled by the pitch.
3. It has to have the principle of a wrist **** right at but just prior to launch. (Think of golf, shooting a basketball, etc. Anything athletic has a cocking effect so why should the swing be different?)
4. In reality, for a right-handed batter, the fingernails of the right hand are up when contact is made. (Opposite for lefties!)
5. The finish has to be high. (I believe in releasing the top hand – others don’t!)
6. Front toe closed is important! (It is also impossible)
7. There is a relationship between front toe touch-down and the swing. Rather, this involves the hands location and timing. (IT CAN’T BE A STAGNANT RELATIONSHIP!) (This is where we discuss the sprinter coming out of the block!)

Also well put Coach as this is pretty much what we've been teaching for years. Yes you must keep the front foot closed and this can and is accomplished with good training. Good info.

Coachric

Why keep the front foot closed?

Jack Mankin

I know you read this site....You've copied the batspeed/bat quickness information from here to start the thread at your site.

Why have you censored my post? There was nothing flagrant in the post.....other than to accuse you of being so involved in your "religion" that you can't see the truth.

If you are a real man with real concerns about hitting and if you have a genuine interest in helping advance hitting instruction I demand that you post my post.

You specifically asked me a question.....I responded....and you won't post it. I thought your "delay" was for foul language or flagrant comments? What purpose does it serve to censor ideas? Does it help you keep your flock? Does it help you save face? Post it and let the public decide.

Otherwise you are a dishonest, make believe hitting has been who really isn't interested in the truth.

Another obstructionist who is more interested in protecting his belief than finding the truth.

LInear

Since you say I know nothing--tell me why, please make me smart(my New Years Resolution is to have linear, HE who knows it all and is never wrong, revise my thinking and make me smart), why we shouldnt keep the front foot closed!!!!!

Happy New Year

Two answers:

Toe open too soon promotes "flying open" or whatever term you want to use instead of staying "on the ball." Perhaps not a big issue with many but with a younger player that pulls off of the ball anyway...

Second answer - an open toe often destroy balance. I state that, in my opinion, it is impossible to keep the front toe closed. However, it opens as the body opens it with torque. JMHO!

quote:

Why keep the front foot closed?

How closed? The amount of X factor is determines by hands back / foot open. Landing heel higher than toe keep the hands back but blocks the hip shoulder separation. Opening the toe past 45 will overstretch the system and lose power if the hands stay back. See animation of Hank Aaron

see front foot to 45 degrees

http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/batspeed/coiling/coiling.htm

Coach

Let us see if Linear answers--as he says I know nothing--now I want to learn--you know I hope the kids on our team dont read this they will lose all respect for me--but then again they and I know where we are going--does LInear?

I might be the greatest fisherman of all time.

Hang some "linear" on your hook and you'll catch quite a few yourself.

Does it surprise anyone that TR is the biggest fish?

I agree with the closed front foot. I just wanted to hear your reasons.

I disagree that it is impossible. Look at scout's clip of Brett.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
...I hope the kids on our team dont read this they will lose all respect for me...

I'll let you in on a secret......they have little respect for your hitting knowledge now.

LINEAR

I will let you in on a secret

how do you know ? you do not know squat ! Have you talked to my kids?

You have not given an response of quality yet to anyone but then NOBODY KNOWS WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW!!!!

I ask to be taught and made smart and you come on like you do---

Teacherman--I hope you make a good pizza and I have heard nothing to that effect either

Bottom line-- Linear never answers the direct question--ever=-- and he cannot dance either

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

...how do you know ? you do not know squat ! Have you talked to my kids?...

Based purely on my survey. Of all the people I've talked to on this site, other sites....anyone who knows you.....none of them have any respect for your hitting knowledge.

bbscout,

May I ask why you never post clips of Art Shamsky?
I am surprised he didnt make your "top hitter" list.

quote:

Another obstructionist who is more interested in protecting his belief than finding the truth.

Linear ..

who is the other one??

I think so too....

DB

Donny

You can disagree with N Y M A N all you want. But he goes to great lengths to provide accurate information based in science.

You have a bone to pick with him because he dissed your device. Tom has a bone to pick because he was de-moderatored. So was I, in fact, I've been dissed by him more than you. You each get support from each other...

His personality is unique. But, he spews no junk.

NO ONE can attack his integrity.

The two most overused and misunderstood words in teaching hitting are TIMING and BALANCE, IMO......I honestly believe very few Coaches understand how either should/do tie into an efficient swing.....

Most don't realize the amount of chaos MLB hitters create in their swings.....It's considerable and cannot be controlled with their feet/legs......Just as the hands/arms cannot produce enough power to get the bat around to the ball in enough time to hit it efectively.......MLB hitters produce chaotic body movements that are unnatural and go against how the body wants to move to swing the bat......Most, practically all, amateur hitters are taught much less chaotic body movements that are more natural as to how the body wants to move to swing the bat.....They are taught to control their movement with the feet/legs and hands/arms because this is what Coaches know how to do.......This is how they were taught to swing a bat.....

High level (MLB) swings create much more chaos/momentum and is controlled from the middle of the body..........The focus should not be on the feet/legs or hands/arms........

Timing is an event of the brain......Get the swing technique right and just let the brain do it's thing.......That's why it's so important for a hitter not to be thinking in the box.....If you're trying to teach timing, you're making a mistake, IMO......