How will you teach hitting?

I definately will not teach arm action.

Bluedog?

Swingbuster, what do you teach for a visual cue - regarding the pitcher - as to when the batter starts his motion? And how do you teach the batter to handle offspeed?

Texan,

The arm and hand action starts with a very very relaxed upper body in constrast to a preloaded position. This alone shifts the focus to the lower body and the hip/hand nuero connection tends to lead the load. The upper body is forced to load dynamically from this starting position and the timing like all timing cannot be taught.

You read about "when the pitcher starts to show you his butt;you show him yours etc". But can we really teach that? I think it is about a good swing then much live arm practice. We all know about when it should happen and sometimes we tell kids that but does it help...I don't know?

As far as change ups, they will always get their share of people out. Even for no stride , if the arm action doesn't match the ball speed your still screwed up. While hitters are practicing great mechanics so are the pitchers. That is why it is a great game.

Tom Writes:
The rear arm action sequence is the same as in the overhand throw where you break the hands with elbows up and palms down (or out) which kinesiologically you might describe as abduction and internal rotation of the throwing/back arm (humerus).This arm action interrupts/prevents any excessive backturn/counterrotation as the bat is coked. The sequence then goes on to prduce "pre-launch tht" as the bat turns back to the catcher/begins to uncok,then "tht at launch" which optimizes trunk coil dynamics (creates "x-factor stretch") to set up consistent and quick unloading.

When you can dig out what is happening here it is simple and it IS how many great hitters swing if you look frame by frame. Even Babe Ruth.

For those that will never teach arm action do one thing for me. Put your bat barrel in the 45 degree launch slot and measure how far your lead elbow is from your left pect muscle. Now put the hands stacked almost vertical and close to your right collar bone...WHERE IS YOUR LEAD ELBOW? it is almost touching your pect now. Which is tension free? How much tension is in your arm at hand break pitching? Would it help to put yuour hand back in the power throwing psoition and muscle up?

When you start the bat in the 45 slot then go vertical and back to the 45 launch slot your lead elbow works tight to the pect muscle as the stride begins and the hips are rotating and the lead shoulder locks into the rotation before the bat starts to flatten at true launch. The hips are ahead of the hands naturally just like pitching. Imagine how speed would be lost pitching if your hips and your shoulders turning to throw at exactly the same time and in the same phase.

Some say learn to turn over and over to help hitter get it. But how? You will learn to turn when what your doing helps you to turn. Projecting the bat barrel correctly through the zone aids give you the feeling that the turn is connected and working without rushing to the ball. It compliments the turn and follow through. You cannot take a bad swing and practice it until you turn well. Your working against mother nature and physics.

There is a strong tendency to chicken wing and tug the handle in many players..especially RH hitters that throw RH. They seem to be benefited by this arm and hand action.

The Science of Hitting
By Linear

Chapter I
I definately will not teach arm action.

Chapter II
Still being written

Linear,

Do your students place the bat between their teeth and hit?

Swingbuster, that "I don't know" was nearly record length, and certainly wandered far afield.

I'm having trouble with the equating of the pitcher's break (thumbs down) with the batter's swing. Just not following that.

Would that complete lack of arm action mean that Linear teaches pure Rotational?

Linear I'm just kidding about the book. (couldn't resist)

I think most people here realize you are pretty knowledgeable about rotational hitting technique.

quote:

I'm having trouble with the equating of the pitcher's break (thumbs down) with the batter's swing. Just not following that.

When a batter cocks the bat the top hand thumb work downward and the rear elbow upward. Good pitching is thumbs down at hand break and rear elbow works up. Same move.........What follows is the hips coil as they begin their stride..same move.Rear elbow internally rotate..same move

Sorry for the long post, I had time to kill

Please stop teaching the addition of "slop" to a swing.

And for that matter, please stop teaching a pause in the load/unload process.

Is it possible that many of the top hitters in the game would not know what the heck you are talking about ?

Watch Hank's slop

http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/batspeed/coiling/coiling.htm

listen to Bonds

Real time clip download

http://www.swingbuster.com/images/Barry%20Bonds%20Clip.rm

Good hitters today take more lessons than give them.

Funny how many young kids do exactly what you say with their arms and still can't hit.

I suggest you look a little deeper. You won't find the real sh*t in the arms.

It's also interesting that you didn't comment on the pause in the load/unload that you teach.

Fungo, I am only me, I assure you......I have no other identity on this board.....

I consider Swingbuster a good and sincere guy.....However, we do differ on some aspects of hitting technique.....Linear and myself probably totally agree as we are both students of a person we greatly respect whose name cannot be mentioned on this board.....And, our belief system is a result of what we have learned from this person through many hours of listening and trial and error........I have grown tired of arguing with people about this stuff......Linear is much more resilient than me and I applaud him for his efforts......There is much to be learned from him.......If people would just listen and trial and error......

Timing is a brain effort.....What's important is when the front foot goes down, not up......If the body is moving efficiently, the brain will know when to put the front foot down whether the pitch is fastball or offspeed.....It's about learning to move the middle properly (weight shift momentum and rotation).......And, it won't work without connection by the hands and arms.....There is no rotation without connection......When the hands and arms go independent and lose the connection with the shoulders, the link is broken and the rotation stops......

Your a student of who? Why can't you say his name on here? Is he wanted by the CIA or something?

quote:

It's also interesting that you didn't comment on the pause in the load/unload that you teach.

If you hand any novice player a bat and say hit this ball coming at you maybe 1 in 1000 will get his front foot down on time and rotate into it's path( Bonds description of his swing not mine).

Breaking the steps down is a way to teach players to learn to turn. You cannot rotate when the front foot is in the air at bat launch. It is a drill station and a very popular one based on sales and currect use.

The icing on the cake ( as evidenced by many Hall of Famers) is the synchronization of an upper body that also learns how to turn inconcert with the lower body. The arm and hand action is the "running start" of the upper body to get in orbit around the core move. If done improperly it is disaster and results in many of baseballs worst swing flaws

Just as the hips coil , the short stride is taken and the hips uncoil, there is a similar pattern ( available to those that chose to use and learn it) that the upper body uses to interface with the lower to make the total movement the most effective.

If you cannot see it in 100s of clips then you do not chose to see it and that is fine. Or maybe those in your charge hit well without it and thats fine too. THere are some clips that support that style too.

quote:

If you cannot see it in 100s of clips then you do not chose to see it and that is fine. Or maybe those in your charge hit well without it and thats fine too. THere are some clips that support that style too.

Yes, many HOF's get/got a running start. Yes, many mlb clips will show the running start. Just as many will show something different.

The problem is you teach arm action as the key. The difference maker. The thing most players are missing. The thing that "if they'd just do this" they'd have success.

That couldn't be further from the truth. What the best do is load their center and create momentum by carrying the load into launch. And then, rotate with good connection.

Most call this carrying move a stride. The word stride is so far from accurate that it is has the same value as "arm action" when it comes to hitting. It has none. Most interpret a stride as similar to a "walking" stride. Simply getting momentum from which to swing with. Its very different from that. In fact, the feet don't even have to move to carry the momentum forward. In fact, something else happens which causes the "stride" or "momentum" shift. In other words, there really isn't a stride. There is a carrying move that moves the foot. If in fact it moves at all.

The actual "move" or "cause" is up the chain. What most see, the foot move, (and call it a stride), is a result of a something else going on.

And this carrying move, or momentum shift, and it's immediate unload at foot touch down is key. And your device teaches something completely different.

Pay attention to the time between foot touch down of a hitter and the launch of his swing as compared to touch down of a player using your device and the launch of his swing.

Maybe, if they hit the ball on the way up it would have value. Otherwise......you're not helping anyone. And a very good case can be made that you are hurting hitters.

Your interest in arm action defines why you think the device is good. The problem is, arm action will not make you a hitter. Learning to properly load, carry and unload the center will.

Your obsession with "hands back" isn't most hitters problem. Most hitters problem is they don't understand the load and carry move. If they did, their hands wouldn't be a problem. At least "hands back" wouldn't be a problem.

You mention your success helping youth hitters by moving their hands back and preloading them. Not a bad move for a coach and his youth hitters. At least it gets them to have some success. The problem is, at that level, they rarely face the need for, and notice their lack of, swing quickness. So, your band aid works.

But, as they advance, they will have to learn something completely different to be successful. They will have to learn to load their center, create momentum by carrying the load into foot touch and launch with good connected rotation. Otherwise they will never develop the swing quickness to "catch up" to the pitching speeds they have to face.

Linear

For a guy who degrades every other approach you have shown us nothing

You, and bluedog , are still shills for the guy you cannot mention--he of the claymotion images

Show us something and perhaps we can believe you

Based on what you have shown I wouldn't let my grandmother take lessons from you for no cost.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Linear

For a guy who degrades every other approach you have shown us nothing

And I thought we became friends on the quarterbacking issue.

Guess not, so.......

STICK TO THE ISSUES OLD MAN. EITHER ASK QUESTIONS, OR, IF YOU CAN'T FORMULATE ANY, STUDY SOME.

Linear

I take offense to the capitilized OLD MAN comment-- at least I know who I am--never changed my ID anywhere , anytime-- I can stand up and face people as to who I am-- can you with all your ID's ?

It is really scary in this day and age when a poster needs to use various ID's--

Mommy, mommy.....

The record will show that TR threw the first punch, I countered, and now he's whining about it.

Swingbuster and I are/were having our discussion. Each was supporting their views with substance, and each poster/lurker could make a decision on their own about who to follow. OR, unlike some, could decide they don't care and read elsewhere.

How about we short circuit the entire discussion and just assume It's and Glove Man threw their punches, I countered them into oblivion, and then mommy told us to stop.

It will save everyone time.

Linear...please explain how you teach players to "load the center". what are your key teaching points you tell the guys

I am obsessed with "how the hands get back". Certain movement patterns assist the shoulder loading making that move more natural for many players.

The shoulder and hips work in concert and how can the center be discussed if it doesn't include both...does it?

If the stride moves weight to keep the center of gravity under the rotation what moves the shoulders back?

How do you tell people to do this?

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

How about we short circuit the entire discussion and just assume It's and Glove Man threw their punches, I countered them into oblivion, and then mommy told us to stop.

It will save everyone time.

LOL

I found this post of interest and enjoyed the opinions and the give and take.

Discussing hitting in person is tough enough, online is nearly impossible but it is still interesting and thought provoking at times.

However, just like it used to be when I frequented more, some people can’t leave the thread alone even though he has nothing substantive to share. It’s the same type of garbage that wore me out from posting.

This is a great site for the most part! Some add a little humor; some add a little logic and some people share their experience. However a few people seem to think they need to jump into every thread just to see their words on the screen, I guess?

It’s too bad because not only does it mess up that thread for others; it also wrecks the thread wrecker’s credibility in the threads they may actually have something to contribute.

I remember others using the analogy that it might make sense to approach this forum like a buffet. It’s all right to pick and choose. You don’t have to eat everything, every time. If it doesn’t make you sick, it will probably make others around you sick.

Merry Christmas to all.

Swingbuster, I won't indulge in this topic too much since I've vowed to not go mud wrestling. However, we load with a slight (SLIGHT) rotation of the shoulders. We also have gone almost exclusivly to "Heal-Toe" for our base. This enables us to "coil" or "flex" and be ready to uncoil. We picked this up from the baseball Cardinals. Pujos and Edmonds both do this in their own ways. Listen as they both hit one day on the field.

quote:

Swingbuster, I won't indulge in this topic too much since I've vowed to not go mud wrestling. However, we load with a slight (SLIGHT) rotation of the shoulders. We also have gone almost exclusivly to "Heal-Toe" for our base. This enables us to "coil" or "flex" and be ready to uncoil. We picked this up from the baseball Cardinals. Pujos and Edmonds both do this in their own ways. Listen as they both hit one day on the field.

Thanks for an honest, sincerely reply
My simple point is this. You can keep your same base( I personally like it) and experiment
( yes they will not break) with different hand positions and bat slots. **** the bat
( tipping toward the pitcher)out from the rear collar bone at about the same height. Have the bottom hand under the top and the bat in a verticle plane ( as seen from behind).This will facilitate a great shoulder load ( as natural as throwing) and all you have to say is "start it there and relax your hands and hit". Watch what happens .....

TRhit, you are really lost in all this.......

I wish you knew enough to contribute, but, the truth is you don't....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
TRhit, you are really lost in all this.......

I wish you knew enough to contribute, but, the truth is you don't....

Nice. What else you got there doggie - other than insults?

Cough up a hairball - or something. Anything original - if possible.

LOL

bluedog

I have to say the feeling is mutual--between you and linear, I have seen nothing-- at least swingbuster brings something to the table and I am not one who is into what I term "hitting gadgets" .He is realistic and makes sense and he has a purpose

You and your alter ego simply regurgiate what the claymation dolls show us--nothing at all original.

As for being lost I think not. At least I do not shill for others

Swingbuster, we want the bat in a 45 degree angle past the hitter's ear. We've had success with that. However, we won't change a hitter until they prove to us that they need changing. We use the top shoulders and hands as a unit. They rotate slightly all together. I can't stress enough slight rotation. Some people try to do this and move a couple of inches. That destroys the whole thing. We do teach hands and I know several here do not. However, we teach hands only when it becomes apparent that they are trying to swing around the ball and not to the ball. To set the hands where we want them, often all we really have to do is the rolled up towel under the lead arm's armpit. As per the back shoulder, I think someone alluded to that in this thread. We don't coach that other than to say relaxed and comfortable.

Oh, the bat at a 45 degree - here is how we arrived at that. Say you were in an alley with a bat and a bad man came along to attack you. How would you hold that bat if you had to fight for your life. I'm betting you would load it in a 45 degree angle. We simply are letting our hitters do what their instincts tell them to do. JMHO!

quote:

...all we really have to do is the rolled up towel under the lead arm's armpit...

It's impossible to execute a high level swing with a towel being held in the lead arm armpit.

The lead arm (upper arm) must be perpendicular to the spine for maximum rotational efficiency and swing quickness.

Without that you lose the box and the body's ability to properly transfer energy up the chain.

By holding the lead arm down (holding something in the armpit) you can not effectively meet the proper pitch plane. By that I mean you can not transfer maximum energy to the ball while still meeting the pitch plane.

Beyond that a low lead arm is a major cause of early roll over.

If you want to hold a volleyball or basketball under the armpit, maybe. But, not a towel.

Is it possible to state your opinion, or ideas on here without bickering? I personally think the Setp** folks have a lot to offer. I do not however, always like the way it is served. A wise man once told me that you could land just as many flies with sugar as with $h!t.

Linear, to each their own. Disagree but then again, that is the norm for most things. Perhaps you know a better method. This works well for us. You can reference our hitting stats anytime. You know the site where those stats are kept. Pressure under the armpit? We are not putting pressure there. They aren't trying to get their elbow flush to their side. BTW, do you realize how big a towel rolled up is. In no way is their elbow next to their side.

We seem to be just fine getting our lead arm in the right place.


Perpendicular to the spine - to me Perpendicular means a 90 degree angle. So you teach to point your lead elbow to the pitcher?

Linear writes...It's impossible to execute a high level swing with a towel being held in the lead arm armpit.

The lead arm (upper arm) must be perpendicular to the spine for maximum rotational efficiency and swing quickness""



It is NOT impossible to begin a high level swing there. Thats is what you don't see. Getting the bat out of plane on purpose forces the hands to move back , the bat to flatten, as you launch and is what increases torque and bat speed through hips shoulder separation. Why doesn't the pitcher just start with this hand back in the throwing position , turn and throw. What is the purpose of over lapping the upperbody take away and the lower body hips rotation to the plate

Starting on the 45 works for some and for some they are actually too quick to the ball and tug the knob. It is hard to project the barrel from there. You also have a tendency to start early and more difficulty with offspeed.

Again see Babe Ruth, Bo Jackson, Chipper, Kirby Puckett, Piazza, Giambi,Glaus. If you look close many start on 45, lower the lead elbow, cocking and making the bat go out of plane toward vertical and return to the 45 slot( as always ) at launch. Their hips **** , shoulders load, bat knob comes out toward oppo batter box, the barrel is perp to to ball flight.

If you have a kid that is not performing up to par just let them try it. It takes one minute to switch back.

quote:

...Thats is what you don't see.

The arguments you make are laughable at best.

Does CoachB25's drill (holding a towel under the lead armpit) allow for the player to drop the towel?

If so why do it?

It's impossible to HOLD the folded towel there and get the arm perpendicular to the spine at any point in the swing. Takes too much pressure to hold the towel and deal with the forces generated by the swing.

Finally, a still picture is the worst when it comes to analyzing what a hitter did or did not do. But, for anyone interested, this hitter is totally disconnected as he hits the ball. Not an ALL bad thing IF he made a great adjustment on the fly. And, he may have hit this ball out of the park. But, what is demonstrated in that still photo is not a high quality swing.

Linear

Show us something--so far all words and regurgitation from a claymation site-- join the real world--- I am waiting for the VIDEO

Deleted = Served no positive purpose.

Show the video clip of the swing.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Linear

Show us something--so far all words and regurgitation from a claymation site-- join the real world--- I am waiting for the VIDEO

OLD MAN

I'm trying to ignore you. You came here yesterday to start ****. You spewed all over yourself. Then Blue Dog called you out. I stayed out of it rather than incite further. Now, here you are starting **** again.

You can't play with the big boys. Stay in the recruiting forums. Your knowledge there is good.

linear,
how could you call him an old man if you are an old man yourself. I wouldn't say "you can't play with the big boys," especially when he is much more of a help to this site than you ever have.

Gordie Gillespie invented the Gillespie Vest to be used basically the same as the towel under the arm. It was a device with 2 straps. One large one went around the player at chest height and a second smaller one strapped around the bicept of the lead arm and attached to the larger strap. This held the front arm, not tight, but close to the body. It is a great muscle memory tool. Even though he's an old man he coached a few wins in college baseball.

Signed,
Fence Driller

Linear,

I hear a gong coming. Ala Chuck Barris.
Its getting closer.

Control yourself.
Please.

Good one.

TR is out of line.

Yell at me for it.

I wasnt yelling.

I was making a sincere and considerate request.

I'll recognize sincere and considerate when just once, for the first time, one of you call out TR publicly like you do me and others.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
I'll recognize sincere and considerate when just once, for the first time, one of you call out TR publicly like you do me and others.

Linear - IMO.

You can disagree with anyone. Vehemently if you like.
You and TR and anyone else for that matter can say that the other person is clueless - or wrong - or has no idea what they are talking about.

But please - leave age, gender, race and religion out of it. Be civil.

I think that is a basic foundation for the rules of the HSBBWEB.

That is all I am saying - and all I have been saying for many years now.

Just once.

Linear,

Cant say I didn't try.
However - I am a realist - however painful that may be at times.

It appears as if you just will not stop.

OK

I deserve all I get. Hell, I probably deserve more.

But.......just once I'd like to see other culprits called out.

BTW, it's obvious what you're trying to do.

What is uncivil about our discussion?

Linear,


Nothing is uncivil about our discussion.
That being said:
IMO

The subject was about teaching hitting.

If you feel you have something to add - put it out there.

If folks disagree - defend yourself.
Shoot - I do it all the time.

Just defend yourself without the negative personal stuff.

If you know what you are talking about - most people will see that - or at least they will be exposed to something new or different IMO.

But when you get personal - it all goes in the garbage.

JMHO.

And TR doesn't get personal?

Just once and we have nothing to talk about.

I have said my piece.

You do whatever you feel is the right thing to do.

Good luck.

Just wanted to get everybody primed for the new year and see if anything had changed.

"The arguments you make are laughable at best".

Maybe so.

I hear the guys are teaching windmill pitching now. What's next? Maybe a whole series on how to do everything in slo motion. Karate, ice skating, lacrosse, riding derby horses, dicing onions, ............ It will all be presented with impecable accuracy.....and in the form of uncompromising LAW


Coach Butler...good luck with the season with those disconnected HR hitters. If they really connect somebody could get hurt. Your not bad for a paid , career coach

Deleted = Served no positive purpose.

Buster

You can clear things up if you answer the question about whether the drill is designed to "hold" the towel the entire time.

If it is then, no, the arm doesn't get there. Not at the beginning. Not at the end. And, not between. Therefore, not a very good drill.

CoachB25

The video please. And, it's been a while since your last self promotion campaign.

Deleted = Served no positive purpose.

Video of the hitter please. I'd like to verify that the ball was hit well.

LINEAR

Again I ask==what are your credentials--you have not shown me squat!!!

I will take my pizza with pepperoni and I would like it delivered VERY VERY HOT

quote:

And TR doesn't get personal?

If he does, then that's his problem and not yours. Just cause someone else does, that don't mean that you can.
Not to be rude towards you, but TRHit gets personal because HE HELPS US! You don't. I've learned alot from Tom, a bit about recuiting and showcases, AND also motivation and attitude adjustments towards my game. Even if you both coached an equal amount of players who you led to the Show as your credentials, Tom would still be ahead of you because he gets 'personal' in a very productive way.
It's nice that you post your view and method on hitting and stuff, but your method isn't the only method out there, so if someone disagrees, then don't get so defensive. There's more than one way to get things done in the game of baseball. You don't always have to be right. If you were always right, then you'd be a coach in the Majors. So please for the benefit of everyone-including yourself-just try to lighten up a little bit.

Linear,

Like you, I am fairly up to date on what the most quoted guys think and say. I even remember you helping clear some things up for me a couple of years ago

Correct me if I am wrong...like I needed to say that haha but here goes

Ny*** has said" I can teach a high level swing with no arm and hand action".

I know because I internalized that and worked with it a long time. He went on to decribe the loading shoulders differentiating scap loading ( the shoulder unit rotating around the spine) vs counter rotation( turning inward with the whole body).

"No arm action" does work for many and I found that maybe it was better for guys that batted LH and threw RH. With the dominant hand on the bottom they seemed to get more angular displacement vs knob drag through the zone. Ny*** also showed the drag was rear elbow leading hands which is top hand dominance pulling the knob and minimal barrel projection. It was my observation that drag and hip slide seemed to occur in the same player

Upon listening to Mankin and Guerry and watching clips there seems to be another style/ method to get the barrel out there and have the upper body interface with the lower in a turn. Adding back the arm and hand action ( that basically) supports and enhances the scap loading that NY*** described helps many player and the list is too long.

Supporters of the start in the 45 slot and stay there speak about swing quickness and I do see HR derby swings with more arm and hand action that shortened up against 90 MPH pitchers but the same loading pattern is still there.

When the ball is half way home both hitting styles should arrive in the same position at launch.

I guess the core statement I have is that some players cannot scap load as well when you take away there arm and hand action. They need some dynamic movement pattern to help load and to get it in the correct launch position ( inside out)There is a greater likihood that the knob will start to the oppo box rather than drag with Mankins style loading. This will bring more barrel through the zone for people fighting bat drag and hip slide

These guys are much better hitters with it than without. For these guys that use it, they are not sacrificing quickness as the timing of the beginning move is sufficient to get them to launch just like the other guys.

I hear what the other camp says but it is not a true blanket statement. There is too much film to show differently. I have coached some players that are decidedly better hitters with arm and hand action for the above reasons. It is not the arm and hand action itself but the better hand position at toe touch that is created for them with the arm and hand action.

The old school cue " keep your front shoulder in" was an effort to keep the hands back inside at toe touch. It is simply saying the same thing because it is not hardly possible to do one without the other

An lets really define laughable...

Imagine taking all the MLB players that use arm and hand action for timing, loading and synching to the park and tell them to put their bat in the 45 slot and learn to turn better and bring your swing out of the middle and you will put up better numbers. Or tell them they are not quick enough to be a great player doing what they are doing. I can hear the laughter. I sure wouldn't be the one to say it.
Lastly, if baseball can find a dominican player in a jungle that can help the game they could certainly find me, you or set*** if they could make Andruw Jones quicker

There is no dispute that players have different usage of their hands and arms.

The point here is you are teaching it as a "way to hit". A way to improve. Do this and you'll be better.

That is far from the truth.

The reason why a Sheffield or a Bonds or a any other "army" hitters do that is they because they can. They can generate better batspeed by doing so but that doesn't mean you or I can.

The difference is in their center. They already understand how to load/unload their center. They are experts at it. They have perfected it. Their quickness is maxed out. So, they then turn to improving batspeed. Quickness allows you to catch up to all the great pitching. Batspeed adds distance to their hits. They can do that. They are rock solid in their center. They can experiment with adding speed.

The problem is, you and I can't. And neither can 95% or more of the players we encounter. They don't have their center under control. They don't understand the load/unload process. They are not as quick as they need to be.

So, you come along and say "do this with your arms". At their current level of competition and quickness, they have success. They look at you like "wow, that really made a difference." Yet, 2, 3, 5 years down the road in no longer works. The pitching is much faster. The quality of the breaking pitches are much better. The reaction time is greatly diminished. And your students generate really good batspeed but can't get the barrel to the ball because it takes too long for them to launch.

Unless and until they learn connected rotation from their center their "arm action" style of hitting will take them as far as their athletic ability goes. As long as they are "athletically gifted" as much or more than the competition they will be fine.

But, to advance a far as they possibly can, they will need to add "skill" to their athletic ability.

This is why so many "obvious" D-1 stars don't make it very far in professional baseball. They have never added "skill" to their "athletic ability".

This is also why someone like John Olerud, who is known to have the one of the slowest batspeeds in professional baseball, has the success he had. I've heard his batspeed in considerably less than most mlb players. But his "skill" level is very high.

Finally, a good coach is one who knows the difference and won't let the players read his press clippings. The coach who tells a player what he needs to hear versus what he wants to hear is extremely valuable down the road. The problem is all the misinformation and therefore the lack of quality coaching at all levels of baseball.

In this country it is ridiculous how small a percentage of kids that reach the top level of the game. They have been very misguided. In fact, whether one makes it or not is purely chance or "luck of the draw". They "discover" what works purely by chance through their own trial and error. Nothing wrong with trial and error. That's how everyone learns. But, trial and error in this country is set back thousands of hours by things like "arm action" hitting philosophies.

I'm still waiting for video of the hitter.

Pepperoni Pizza and Dion and the Belmonts?

The good things in life.

I want a Sunday Kind of Love and Doo Wops are Forever, as is Baseball.

Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah , Happy Kwanza, and a Happy and Healthy and Prosperous New Year to All.

I went back and deleted a couple of posts following my own advice from the Illinois Forum. Being critical of what others teach for the sake of being critical doesn't get the job done. If it doesn't work for you suggest an alternative drill. To be critical and not make those recommendations of improved methods serves no positive purpose and only is done to incite. JMHO!

Now that we have an admission the drill is as follows. Learn to rotate without opening your front foot. Keep it pointed toward the plate.

Remember, it's a drill.

Nice post Linear,

When I have a kid going good I leave him alone more than ever. Had a senior last year that came out for ball for the first time since he was 14 and we put him in the 45 slot, preloaded and he contributed many hits.

Our local HS team has a mixture of styles. About 3-5 arm action guys, a great Olerud type LH kid that hit several HRs as a 9th grader that just slides the bat out of that 45 slot and the barrel is all you notice moving, and the rest are solidly in the 45 slot at set up but I would not call great hitters.

I don't change any swings that are productive. I do find some that are struggling and IMO you just can't fix all of them with the lower half only.

Lastly,

I must question the implication that any of todays great hitters perfected the middle and then added upper body arm and hand action as icing on the cake applied at some later date to go to the next level for bat speed.

These is no evidence in the Science of Hitting that Williams supported or suggested a staggered system of learning to hit.

There was no evidence of this in Gwynn's book and I have seen no early Bond footage that their swing was a transitional process training the hips and progressing to include arm and hand action later.

There is no evidence in Dusty Bakers book either

IMO...The reason is that it did not happen that way for any of those guys nor can anybody give any supporting evidence that it did. The first written material supporting the superiority of that teaching style came from you know where. How great a contribution that really will be is still a question for me personally.

Just because all the greats didn't think "load/unload the center" or "load my scap" or "set my posture" or "stay connected" that doesn't mean it's not what they were learning to do. In fact, that is exactly where their trial and error process took them. Today, we can shorten that process by paying attention to these "better defined" terms.

Over many many reptitions they learned (the hard way) about loading the center, creating momentum by caring the load forward and rotating with connection. Of course, the words we use now weren't used by them.

Only recently have these basic core movements had the new words connected to them. And, it was done by N y m a n. He didn't discover how to hit. But, he has learned to properly define the movements. Defining them so that what looks the same now has more meaning. Examples:

What is now "carrying your center".....was stride back then. They look the same to the uninformed but are very much different.

Counter rotation or inward turn is now scap load. Not just a new term but a better explanation of what is going on.

Stance then is posture now.

Batspeed then is bat quickness now.

Each of these contain more information than the original term. Each better explains reality.

This applies to today's hitters also. When the new terms were coined they all were already advanced players. Far into their own trial and error process.

That's why you don't hear Gwynn, Bonds, Pujols etc use the terms. They learned the old fashioned way. They didn't have their trial and error process shortened by a coach using these new terms.

However, give it a few years. Let todays youngsters growing up on these terms get old enough and see how they describe their swings.

As far as in what order did the greats learn their swings. They all suffered through the trial and error of more batspeed = less quickness. More quickness = less batspeed. I need quickness but my speed suffers. I have great speed but I don't have reaction time. Back and forth. Forth and back. Until it all came together.

IMHO there is no substitute for swing quickness. Swing quickness will get you playing time when you're young. Play defense and get hits = playing time for youngsters.

Now, learn to add some batspeed to send those hits further.

Compare that to the batspeed kid. Hits a long fly now and again and doesn't catch up on many others. Constantly swinging at bat pitches. Doesn't have the reaction time needed because his swing takes too long to execute. His long flys better be real long and pretty often to make up for his low OBP. And, unless he "trades off" batspeed for swing quickness his days are numbered.

Learn quickness first then learn speed.

Linear ...you are very good when you decide to share...must be the Christmas spirit.

Have a Merry One...I learned a few things from that...that is why I debate.

TRhit, Linear knows alot about hitting.....You know nothing about hitting.....Plain and simple.....

I have enjoyed these posts alot. I have been teaching hitting for 30 years and some of these technical terms are amazing. There are a lot of new fancy terms out there for those that need them. The approach is still the same if you truly no what you are teaching. The arms only follow the hands, if they react too soon, you will have a wrap hitter. CoachB25 not only knows his stuff, he has a proven track record. Believe me that they knew hitting in the 30's and 40's, they just knew they didn't need fancy terms, that while hitting can be broken down and explained, it ain't brain surgery. Many players I've worked with have gone on to great success and have always told me that they appreciated my approach of breaking it down and explaining it so that they could understand it and also teach it. Opinions are great though as we can always learn something new.

Merry Christmas to all
Coachric

Bluedog

Thanx and happy holidays to you to--- You know what---you know nothing about me so dont go where fools may fail

Both you and Linear post words but no backup-- you guys are a sham--kissing up to the claymation man--dolls dont so it--people do it and baseball is and will be forever one on one --not vacant words

TRhit, I don't say happy holidays.....I say Merry Christmas........I don't care what the ACLU or anyone else thinks about that.....

Hitting advice is not your strength......Stick with what you know, whatever that may be....

Doesn't quickness to the ball translate to higher batspeed? The longer I wait to hit, the faster I have to move the bat, correct, or not? Maybe I have the concepts confused.

No they are two totally separate things.

One is "how long it takes you to get from A to B".

The other is "how fast are you going when you get to B".

How long does it take you to get up to speed?

One gets his bat moving 85mph in .6 seconds.

Another gets his bat moving 85mph in .4 seconds.

Yet another may get his bat moving 80mph in .3 seconds.

In watching video you can see players that have an extra frame or two of video from launch to contact. Well, at 30 frames per second, a player that has 2 extra frames (2/30)is 1/15 of a second slower than the other guy. Yet both may reach the same batspeed.

When a hitter has .4 seconds to not only swing but to decide whether to swing or not, 1/15 of a second is huge.

Okay, so given that one has a faster rate of acceleration than the other, and both are limited in top speed, how do you increase the top speed? Is this where the arms, and hands add to it? Also, if you're the guy who posted about rotating in an imaginary tube on h-m, it would be helpful if you reposted that here.

linear,
1]i appreciate your knowledge of hitting,although i disagree with some of your
points[that does not make you wrong,just my
opinion].
2]your point about t.r.was well taken.also,about
the other websters taking his part.i have read the h.s.web for a few years and they consistantly go after posters as a group.i don't
post very often because of this.
3]let me make it real interesting[i'm sure the
gang will jump on this]you said t.r.should stick
to the recruiting topics.why?he knowws nothing
about that either.

i don't know linear from adam,i'm just making an observation,i don't feel you have done anything wrong in your posts and feel you've contributed some good points about hitting.
i would debate it with you any time.

thank you

quote:

Originally posted by SoutherNo1:...how do you increase the top speed?...

Top speed comes from a combination of better mechanics, and better strength and conditioning.

You have to learn quickness first and then learn to develop speed within the frame work that allows your best quickness.

A major mistake 95% of all coaches make is searching for batspeed improperly. They search for the fastest bat at the expense of quickness. And, they look good for a while. Whether that is the youth league for many or the high school level for some. They help a kid reach top batspeed numbers and in so doing make him a worse hitter.

Because, at the level where your athletic ability is higher than your opponents, any mechanics will do as long as the bat is fast.

But, at such time that your athletic ability is no better than everyone else's, IF your mechanics are poor, you're doomed. Retirment time.

I've heard numerous posters say "you don't mess with someone who's hitting". Well, you're enabling his failure IF you know something about his future and don't tell him and don't ask him to (make him) work on it. And, this is 95% of all amateur baseball.

Because, most coaches aren't in it for player development. They love trophies. Their egos are really what they are about. They can't take a chance on "helping" a kid (which may mean 2 steps back before taking 1 step forward) because that will hurt their chances in league or districts or whatever.

Learn the mechanics of the quick swing at whatever batspeed you can generate. Even if its considerably less than in your old swing. Then, within those mechanics, train your body to generate more speed through strength and conditioning drills that "resemble" the swing movements.

quote:

...[i'm sure the
gang will jump on this]...

If you still have posting privileges at sun up we can debate.

My fan club gets larger and just look at the individuals in it

Thanx to you fine gentlemen during this holiday season for the kind words

J bags--thanx for the compliment--

LOL--amazing how it goes---

Happy New year

linear,
great post on mechanics and egos. you are 100% right on this. i think more often in youth leagues and the "elite" travel teams but theres plenty of it on the high school level too. its a trap that im sure all of us fall into with different areas of the game but need to do our best to avoid. great point.

Southern writes
"Is this where the arms, and hands add to it?

Arm and hand action is about a pattern of movement that can affect the loading of the shoulders.

In regards to bat speed the arm and hand action is discussed in reference to a negative move...how to get the hands back and on an inside /out path through properly loading the shoulder unit.

This "arm and hand action" is not used considering or discussing the true swing after launch as a rule

The eternal debate is whether this arm and hand action is equal to a more simple backwards move. It envolves the players conscience ability to move his hands back and stay loaded until toe touch vs. putting the bat in a location that he MUST move his shoulders back in order to hit putting it on auto-pilot.

If the hands start in and to then the brain knows they must go back and away. It is a similar pattern that you see at "hand break" pitching from the stretch. This move gets overlapped by the hips rotating and turning toward the target and torque is created in the midsection. (again similar to pitching)

The debates goes to an argument that having the hands move in the simplest pattern( almost preloaded) is QUICKER( an still fast enough) vs a dynamic path the increases nuero stretch factors that yield more bat speed
( which it does by the way). Opponents say a fast bat that misses the ball is useless.

There are hand path issues and timing issues too, so it will never be solved. Your only benefit derived is that with study and consideration you will likely pick up some points of interest and learn a few things of value.

You will endure a few battles along the way but welcome just the same

Swingbuster, very impressive!

Many of today’s hitters are better because of better technique employed. If you or your hitters are not taking advantage of better techniques today or are resisting change, than you are missing the boat. The problem is that many of the improvements are subtle and most are not obvious enough to be understood by many.

If you disagree with the above, than I ask you to explain why baseball is so much different than say, basketball. Would anyone disagree that basketball has seen much change? Could you imagine seeing a player shoot like they used to with two hand push shots or many other old time basketball dribbling techniques?

I guess that is why some of us get a little frustrated with the many so called baseball people who we think would know better. We can’t understand why they still teach hitters the baseball equivalent of the two handed push shot.

I would like to go back to the original question " How will you teach hitting?"

very simple-- one on one-- no gimmicks, no gadgets-- one on one explaining and showing to the player ( regardless of age) what he is doing wrong

Keep in mind that each player is unique unto himself so "cookie cutter" methods will not and do not work across the board

Sometimes we try to get too darn scientific-- baseball is a game of "feel and reaction" not physics and cyber talk--there is no way a .200 hitter becomes a .300 hitter--he just ain't got it physically and mentally

I agree with TR that baseball gets too scientific, but I also think that it gets too generic. I always hear "see the ball, hit the ball" then someone else says "make sure you're right knee is perpendicular to the alignement of the shoulders". I don't think neither of those helps. I think the specificty lie in the middle somewhere. Some players need more specific instruction, some need more general instruction.

quote:

..I don't think neither of those helps.

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I would like to go back to the original question " How will you teach hitting?"

very simple-- one on one-- no gimmicks, no gadgets-- one on one explaining and showing to the player ( regardless of age) what he is doing wrong.

TR really thinks he's making a point when he says this. I think it's approaching 50-60 times he's posted this gem.

Of course, while we're posting this stuff it's the equivalent of a bunch of coaches sitting around a table discussing fundamentals. None of us, at the moment of the discussion is teaching. Yet, we all (at least most of us) do teach. And we teach one on one just like anyone teaching hitting.

It's the best he can come up with I guess. Satisfies his need to type.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

A major mistake 95% of all coaches make is searching for batspeed improperly. They search for the fastest bat at the expense of quickness. And, they look good for a while. Whether that is the youth league for many or the high school level for some. They help a kid reach top batspeed numbers and in so doing make him a worse hitter.

Because, at the level where your athletic ability is higher than your opponents, any mechanics will do as long as the bat is fast.

But, at such time that your athletic ability is no better than everyone else's, IF your mechanics are poor, you're doomed. Retirment time.

I've heard numerous posters say "you don't mess with someone who's hitting". Well, you're enabling his failure IF you know something about his future and don't tell him and don't ask him to (make him) work on it. And, this is 95% of all amateur baseball.

Because, most coaches aren't in it for player development. They love trophies. Their egos are really what they are about. They can't take a chance on "helping" a kid (which may mean 2 steps back before taking 1 step forward) because that will hurt their chances in league or districts or whatever.

Linear,

I read this - and as always - test the intent of the message to the reality.

The reality I see here in this part of the country is exactly the opposite of what you describe.

95% of the coaches I have seen here at the high school/travel team and college level do a great job of developing players - and it is their main intent.

That is what confuses me so much about your posts - you can be so technically articulate about hitting - and then you drop off the cliff with nonsense about coaches you know nothing about - have never met - and have never watched.

Its like cooking a really good meal - and then pouring motor oil on it right before you serve it up.

I can't help the fact that you don't understand the message. But since you don't, you won't reach the same conclusion.

Linear

The question is "How will you teach hitting?"

I answered--I truly apologize that I do not know as much as you think you know--

You do it your way and I will do it mine--I think I will be successful--you are the who knows it all-- but nobody knows anything about you other than you try to make everyone think you are the only one who is ever right.

One other thing--at least I do it my way,not the way I have been brainwashed to do it such as you are-- be original for once and always realize that every kid is different--no one way works for all of them

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
I can't help the fact that you don't understand the message. But since you don't, you won't reach the same conclusion.

On the contrary, I understand the message. Actually messages - plural.

The "hitting stuff" - although not new or revolutionary - is well articulated and, at times, interesting to read.

The "coaching stuff" makes virtually no sense and is in direct contrast to what I see just about every day.

I truly believe that the marketing approach you use to disseminate information is very poor.

Just my opinion.

quote:

The "hitting stuff" - although not new or revolutionary - is well articulated and, at times, interesting to read.

Trust me.......You don't get it. Your response would be different if you did.

quote:

I truly believe that the marketing approach you use to disseminate information is very poor...

I'm not selling anything. Don't care if anyone "buys".

But what I describe is the truth.

The proof is in the numbers. Millians of kids begin at say age 5 or 6. By the time they are 24 less than 100 are playing mlb.

Coaches line up to coach little league, babe ruth league, legion ball, high school etc etc. Add up all the teams all over the country and they can't get more than 100 to play mlb at age 24??? Now that's a bad track record.

And you expect me to believe you and the others "get it".

You're sadly mistaken.

quote:

Coaches line up to coach little league, babe ruth league, legion ball, high school etc etc. Add up all the teams all over the country and they can't get more than 100 to play mlb at age 24??? Now that's a bad track record.

Linear,
How can teaching something at the little league level change the number of roster spots at the MLB level?

Don't mind him folks, the little white van with the nice little sirens the cool jacket with the long arms will be stopping by his house in the morning.

de·lu·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-lzhn)
n.

A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
In Psychiatry- A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

Why did you quit coaching? It appears you could have become THE most prolific coach in the history of the amatuer ranks, I mean with sending ALL your students to the show and all. What a shame you gave up on the game.

What kind of establishment doesn't serve chicken tenders?

Linear,

Actually - I dont believe you get "it".

And yes - you are selling your ideas.
Or at least attempting to do so.
You may not think you are - but you are.
Poorly - I might add.

As for talent in this country - it just seems to be getting better and better - every year - at all ages. I am surprised you have not noticed this. Someone is doing something right. Actually - alot of things right. Perhaps a trip to the field - and out of the lab - may help.

As for Fungo's comment - I agree 100%.

What does the number of roster spots in MLB have to do with youth training?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr3000:
I agree with TR that baseball gets too scientific, but I also think that it gets too generic. I always hear "see the ball, hit the ball" then someone else says "make sure you're right knee is perpendicular to the alignement of the shoulders". I don't think neither of those helps. I think the specificty lie in the middle somewhere. Some players need more specific instruction, some need more general instruction.

The above quote is what Mr. 3000 wrote regarding hitting and how he agreed with TR about some coaches trying to be to scientific and others trying to be to generic.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

..I don't think neither of those helps.

I agree.

The quote above is how Linear replied.


Now, I have placed the actually thought that Linear is refering to in Mr. 3000 message in bold. Now a real coach would have explained why they agree with the statement in question. What they would be focusing on and How they would go about teaching it different and what they would be looking for. However, Linear just gives a one liner about how he agrees but offers no explanation.

Scooter

quote:

...Now, I have placed the actually thought...

No, you didn't "get" the first jab and I doubt if you "get" this one.