Skip to main content

61 replies

HS Baseball Sabermetrics

C CoachRunPrevention10+ posts
What stats do you feel are especially important in High School baseball?

I feel that batters who rarely strike out and have a high groundball % rate are valuable, because HS defenses have low fielding percentages.

HS defenses have a harder time turning ground balls into outs, relative to professional baseball.

Also, HS infields have a harder time turning double plays.

This leads me to believe that laying down bunts - sac, drag, push - is also key because it forces the HS defense to try convert the bunted ball into an out, and they will throw the ball away or misplay a high % of the time, relative to pro ball.

What else? How about pitchers who have high K rates? That way he gets outs without depending on the defense, which again has a lower fielding % than pro ball. And a catcher who doesn't turn those K's into "reached 1st base on a dropped 3rd strike."

Pitchers with low walk rates are obviously always good, especially so in HS ball because free bases turn to runs more with the higher # of passed balls, errors, etc.

What do you guys think?
Throw strikes, make plays
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachRunPrevention:
What stats do you feel are especially important in High School baseball?


At the risk of being flippant...none.

We had a pitcher give up 8 earned in 1.1 on one outing, and 7 earned in 2.0 in another outing and had a miraculous ERA under 1 at the end of the season...his dad kept the scorebook...and that ball over the CF's head should have been caught, if only he'd broken on the ball as the ball left the pitchers hand...that's an error for sure.

There are few HS scorebooks that are kept without some bias...at least as it has been reported here for years, thereby rendering comparative statistics meaningless.
Last edited by CPLZ
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
What do you guys think?

Interesting logic.

How about the oppposite approach. Work overtime in training your defense and you will have a competitive advantage over your opponents.

I like the idea of hitting a ground ball over a strikeout but I am not sure I would train kids to hit ground balls. Line drives is the best approach imho.

A pitcher who can strike them out always works at any level of the game. Again, if you have a defense behind you, your pitcher should have confidence in throwing strikes.

I think the right approach is to coach your kids up in all the fundamentals of the game rather than looking for ways to trick the other team's weakness.
C CoachRunPrevention10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
quote:
What do you guys think?


I think the right approach is to coach your kids up in all the fundamentals of the game rather than looking for ways to trick the other team's weakness.


Oh, I know. We work our tails off on all phases of the game. I don't talk about stats with the players. I just figured, coaches talking with coaches, maybe we could help each other and share insight.

If team A works hard, and team B works hard, the difference might be that team A's coach is a little better able to value his players and value strategy than team B's coach.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
Coach - I am sorry if I sounded critical of you. You come across as a creative thinker and that is good for the game. Also, sorry for not welcoming you to the hsbbweb Smile

I have no problem with bunting when the situation in a game calls for it. Perhaps you might notice during warmups that a 3rd baseman cannot field the bunt so you might also counsel some of your leadoff hitters to take advantage of that. Beyond that, I want my kids (I am not a coach btw) to learn how to hit. There may be a stat out there that says teams that bunt more often or hit groundballs get more baserunners. I don't care. In general, I want my kids to learn how to hit, hit line drives, and hit them hard.

Again, welcome to the hsbbweb! Interesting stuff.
Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
Many have interpreted this question as being "What HS stats are important to college coaches in their recruiting efforts." I don't think this is the question that was asked.

I'm pretty sure he meant "what stats are important for HS coaches to analyze their personnel and to win ballgames?"

And I think this is very legitimate question. Don't all HS coaches keep stats?

I think a hitter's strikeout percentage is a big one. Also the K/BB ratio. In HS, a batter who doesn't strike out much is valuable, because of the lower fielding percentages.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
I'm pretty sure he meant "what stats are important for HS coaches to analyze their personnel and to win ballgames?"

That is what I understood as well.

Look, if my choice is between two players, one guy is a .300 hitter who hits more ground balls than strikeouts, and another guy is a .300 hitter who strikes out more often, maybe it makes sense to pick the ground ball guy over the strikeout guy - all else being equal.

If my choice is between a hitter and a guy who hits ground balls, I want the hitter every time. I don't care if there is a stat that says the groundball guy might actually get on base more often in "high school." On my team, the hitter beats out the groundball guy. Obviously, there are usually many other things to also consider. Obviously, some coaches may value other things than amateurs like me Smile
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
CoachRunProtection,
You would rather have a guy hit groundballs than strike out. Most coaches would, anything can happen when you put the ball in play.

It sounds like you specifically look for players who hit groundballs. How about a line drive hitter? Would you rather have a line drive hitter or a ground ball hitter. Also, I don't think anyone would describe themselves, or others, as a groundball hitter. They usually don't last long in the lineup. Most decent HS infielders will make the play on a routine groundball.

You describe "small ball" as the way to go in high school baseball. I think this depends on the type of players you have on your team. If you don't have many line drive or power hitters then that might be the way to go. Otherwise let the players hit.
trojan-skippertrojan-skipper1,000+ posts
There are so many different level of HS ball that tracking any kind of meaningful data is really hard.

Small ball: I am at a small school and usually we have one pretty good guy to trot out there and we get an occasional 'pitchers duel'.. but usually the winds blowing out, the electric bats we use, and the vast numbers of pitchers we go thru turns it into a battle that resembles anything but small ball.

I'm not averse to looking at numbers that's for sure... it just comes down to at my level it's still a simple game; get the other guy out 21 times and limit your outs to 20 or less and you win
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
I think a hitter's strikeout percentage is a big one. Also the K/BB ratio. In HS, a batter who doesn't strike out much is valuable, because of the lower fielding percentages.


This ratio is looked at by coaches.And it is a good stat to look at.If the strike outs are low, the player is at least putting the ball in play a lot.I heard a 1:1 ratio for walks to strikeouts was good.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
The best way to win is to develop kids into being better hitters, pitchers, fielders, runners, etc. and to make them smarter players and to get them to play hard at all times. Better players are more likely to win and the coach won't have to outcoach the other guy as often and all the stats will be better.

No matter what the stats might show, I would hate to develop a hitter into a groundball hitter. That is not doing him any favors.
playfairplayfair500+ posts
PG is 100% correct. My son (a 3 year straight .400 plus hs hitter) was asked to put everything on the ground this year. He did. His contact percentage was .987

the rest of his stats:

32 gp, avg. .261, 119 PA, 88 AB, 15R, 23 H, 19 RBI, 10 ROE,

Fielding % 1.000, 193 TC, 155 PO, 38 assists, 0 errors, 2 DP, 2 PB, cs %800,

Pitching 2 wins, 2 saves, w%100, 2.4 era, 101 bf, 10 BB, 26 K,

He won CIF and considered his season a personal disaster. Because of the .261 and doing what he was told by hitting everything on the ground.

We all understood the importance of doing what is best for the team. And he executed it. But all the scouts did was question his bat and walk away.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Take the talented and hard working players, develop them and put the best team on the field regardless of if it suits your style. Use non-league games to develop your backups and younger players even if it means your overall record suffers.

As far as groundballs I hear HS coaches telling pitchers to throw a ground ball too. A few more home runs are hit on fly balls and line drives than on grounders. The only hitters who should be trying to hit ground balls are speedsters with no punch and little or no chance of developing any punch. Most HS players should be trying to hit line drives and only a very limited few should be trying to elevate the ball.

A HS teacher's number 1 job is too get as many kids as possible to the next level - college, while providing all the kids with a solid education. A HS coach's #1 job is too get as many kids as possible to the next level - college, while providing all the kids with a solid baseball education. Quit worrying about getting minor advantages by doing things that aren't necessarily good for the kids development. The wins will follow.

Some might say that a coach isn't a teacher and the goals are different but they'd be disagreeing with John Wooden and that usually isn't a very smart thing to do.

BTW, the average on ground balls put into play is going to be around .300 for most hitters so given that hitters are going to pop one or two up and strike out on occasion a hitter who puts everything in play on the ground is going to hit under .300 unless he's got exceptional speed.
Last edited by CADad
Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
I've never heard of anyone teaching kids to try to be a ground ball hitter. There may be situations where a hard grounder is called for (infield in, for instance) but that's about it.

Being a good hitter is about driving the ball. That's the only way you are going to get extra bases (and the home run, when you just miss the line drive!)
Last edited by Rob Kremer
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
The things that you can do as a team in HS that will give you a better chance at winning are not always the things that will help your players develop into better players. I have known HS coaches that "want" and "teach" their hitters to hit down on the baseball because -

There are several things that have to happen to get you out if you hit a ground ball. #1 it has to be hit where someone can make a play on it.#2 they have to field it cleanly. #3 they have to make a good accurate throw in time to get the runner. #4 it has to be caught by the 1B. So it takes four things to get you out. When a fly ball is hit #1 it has to be hit where somone can field it. #2 it has to be caught. So the theory is only 2 things have to happen vs 4 things with a ground ball.

Great theory but terrible philosophy imo. You begin to clone your hitters and take away from the individuality of hitters and their strengths.

Here are the things I believe are the difference makers and they take absolutely no talent or any more talent than you already have to help you win.

#1 - Make the routine plays on a routine basis by teaching sound fundementals of fielding throwing and catching.
#2- Be sound in the cut game by teaching the philosophy of keep a single a single - a double a double - a triple a triple.
#3- Throw strikes. There is no defense for BB. Make the other team earn their way on base.
#4- Be exceptional in the bunt defense game. Know your responsibilities and get an out somewhere. If you do that they will run out of outs before they do damage.
#5- First and third defense. Drill for the 1st and 3rd situations so you will have confidence to defend it.
#6- Baserunning. Understand how to run the bases. Take advantage of the other team mistakes in the cut game.
#7- Have quality at bats 1-9 for 7 innings and you will be just fine. The result is not the issue. The approach is the issue. You win the at bat when you have a quality at bat.

It takes absolutely no more talent to accomplish these goals than you already have.

If you are a speed guy and you dont have power then know your role. Hit a line drive , a hard ground ball , lay down a bunt etc etc. If your a power guy then be a power guy. Look to mash and I will take 1-3 with a bomb everytime out from you. The best teams have players that understand their role in the line up and what they bring to the table to help the team win. The last thing I want my 3 4 5 guys doing is trying to hit a ground ball hoping someone makes an error.

What stats are important in HS? Who won and who lost thats the only stat that is important. How do you get those W's vs those L's? Take care of those 7 things and you will win way more times than you lose.
jerseydadjerseydad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
The things that you can do as a team in HS that will give you a better chance at winning are not always the things that will help your players develop into better players. I have known HS coaches that "want" and "teach" their hitters to hit down on the baseball because -

There are several things that have to happen to get you out if you hit a ground ball. #1 it has to be hit where someone can make a play on it.#2 they have to field it cleanly. #3 they have to make a good accurate throw in time to get the runner. #4 it has to be caught by the 1B. So it takes four things to get you out. When a fly ball is hit #1 it has to be hit where somone can field it. #2 it has to be caught. So the theory is only 2 things have to happen vs 4 things with a ground ball.

Great theory but terrible philosophy imo. You begin to clone your hitters and take away from the individuality of hitters and their strengths.

Here are the things I believe are the difference makers and they take absolutely no talent or any more talent than you already have to help you win.

#1 - Make the routine plays on a routine basis by teaching sound fundementals of fielding throwing and catching.
#2- Be sound in the cut game by teaching the philosophy of keep a single a single - a double a double - a triple a triple.
#3- Throw strikes. There is no defense for BB. Make the other team earn their way on base.
#4- Be exceptional in the bunt defense game. Know your responsibilities and get an out somewhere. If you do that they will run out of outs before they do damage.
#5- First and third defense. Drill for the 1st and 3rd situations so you will have confidence to defend it.
#6- Baserunning. Understand how to run the bases. Take advantage of the other team mistakes in the cut game.
#7- Have quality at bats 1-9 for 7 innings and you will be just fine. The result is not the issue. The approach is the issue. You win the at bat when you have a quality at bat.

It takes absolutely no more talent to accomplish these goals than you already have.

If you are a speed guy and you dont have power then know your role. Hit a line drive , a hard ground ball , lay down a bunt etc etc. If your a power guy then be a power guy. Look to mash and I will take 1-3 with a bomb everytime out from you. The best teams have players that understand their role in the line up and what they bring to the table to help the team win. The last thing I want my 3 4 5 guys doing is trying to hit a ground ball hoping someone makes an error.

What stats are important in HS? Who won and who lost thats the only stat that is important. How do you get those W's vs those L's? Take care of those 7 things and you will win way more times than you lose.


Yah, what he said
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
I guess that would depend on the individual would it not? I am sure there are some players that could careless if they win or not as long as their stats are good. I am sure there are some parents that could careless as long as their sons stats are good.

Winning is a result of developing players , talent , teaching , coaching. But to some its not important to win?

I am curious , what in your opinion is the most important stat in HS baseball? And why is winning not important to a player or a coach?
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Dirtbags,
Let's see, honesty, integrity, developing players, etc. are more important than winning. When winning is more important you end up with players taking steroids, coaches doing illegal recruiting and players ending up with lifelong injuries in order to win HS baseball games.

BTW, I don't think I was disagreeing with you Coach May, you really said the same thing I did relative to winning. I was just hitting the semantics of that one particular statement. As long as doing it right comes first then winning is important.

The most important stat in HS baseball is how many quality citizens graduate from the program and the school. The next most is important stat is how many go on to college as students. The next most important stat is how many go on to play at the next level. There are situations where players are on teams that are simply outclassed by the rest of their league. Is won-loss record the most important stat for those kids or for their coach? Or is it simply asking if those kids kept playing hard and doing their best to win?

How do you take a statement about doing it right and turn it into kids thinking about individual stats?
Last edited by CADad
C CoachDB10+ posts
Statistical data can be gathered and assessed at even the youngest club levels. Trends and probabilities begin to develop at an early age and will deviate the greatest under external stimuli, I.e. Coaching, peer pressure, etc. I had a child last year with an outstanding OBP but a below average BA even for the division he played in. The reason being? He wouldn't swing at anything! He was good for a walk at minimum 2 for 4 AB. Once on base he would steal 2nd, 3rd, and wait for the passed ball to take home. Not the greatest player but the best run producer.

Now that being said... I do not advocate for coaches running little league, pony ball, middle school, or high school ball like Billy Bean. Your job at this stage is to produce competitors. Good losers and almost more importantly... good winners. Develop WELL ROUNDED ball players.

But on the other hand... Winning is fun. Losing is not. While your players can have fun while playing a losing game, scoring runs and winning games builds confidence. Confident players are happier and are more likely to have better home lives and do better in school! Never underestimate the impact you WILL have on your kids! As a coach, a mentor, and a friend to these kids, isn't your responsibility to offer them the most possible by being the best coach you can in ALL areas of the game? And yes. That includes trends, stats, and probabilities with attention paid to variables. So take advantage of poor pitching by teaching your kids plate selection! Teach them about the low average of defensive stats in younger divisions by teaching situational baseball!

Your young ball players are much more accepting of this than you might think. Everyone wants to be the best and if the kids think they are learning something none of their other friends on other teams know they will eat up any information you can give them.
And even If they don't end up being great players, they will have a deeper and more meaningful appreciation for the game we all love so much. Who knows... You may have just coached a kid who goes on to be front office in New York.

My final word... Use stats! Numbers are real and tangible and are there for you to use! So use them to guide each child in a more balanced direction. Low stats are areas that need more attention. Bottom line, use numbers to improve individual performance, win games, and make happy ball players. Just don't use stats with the goal of winning a game. Your well rounded, well coached kids will do that for you.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts

Originally Posted by ClevelandDad:

…If my choice is between a hitter and a guy who hits ground balls, I want the hitter every time. I don't care if there is a stat that says the groundball guy might actually get on base more often in "high school." On my team, the hitter beats out the groundball guy. Obviously, there are usually many other things to also consider. Obviously, some coaches may value other things than amateurs like me

 

When you say “hitter”, I’m making the assumption you’re talking about hitting the ball hard. If that’s true, it sounds like you’re saying you’d rather have players who hit the ball hard than getting runners on base, betting that the hard hitters will end up generating more runs over the course of a season.

 

That would be a good discussion if how runners who scored got on base were tracked. In the end, at the HS level I’d think a coach would be more interested in getting runners on rather than how that happened.

Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

The best way to win is to develop kids into being better hitters, pitchers, fielders, runners, etc. and to make them smarter players and to get them to play hard at all times. Better players are more likely to win and the coach won't have to outcoach the other guy as often and all the stats will be better.

No matter what the stats might show, I would hate to develop a hitter into a groundball hitter. That is not doing him any favors.

 

No doubt making players better is always the best course of action at any level. But most HS players aren’t going to play beyond HS, so why not help those kids be as successful as possible at that level, even if it means hitting grounders instead of liners?

 

Now if every HS coach had unlimited time to work 1 on 1 with every player I think I’d feel differently, but in my experience I don’t see that. What I see is the top players are getting their 1 on 1 time with private coaches. While there is a certain amount of 1 on 1 coaching going on at every practice, most of the practicing is done trying to get the team to work cohesively as a unit, not necessarily to get Johnny to hit liners instead of grounders.

LC Little C100+ posts

Sorry, no I wasn't saying that at all. I live in Florida and baseball is very big in our area and I know that the coaches are under some pressure to win/be competitive. We are a very large school and are very competitive most years. Our coach is an ex-MiLB player and runs a great program and does it the right way, but his job is to win.

 

As coach mentioned before, he is trying to get the players to play as a cohesive unit in order to win. He doesn't have the time to work individually with each kid. We are in the second largest classification in Florida, yet we only have two coaches...that is for JV and V combined. There is just no time to break little Johhnys swing down and start over to produce a kid that is just going to rake...he has to work with what he has got when it gets to him from Middle School. I know he would prefer that kids dominate the top half of the baseball for reasons mentioned above!

 

roothog66roothog6610,000+ posts

This thread reminded me of my first paid baseball gig as a pitching coach at a pretty successful high school. Forst day of workouts, I followed the head coach around (who was an old buddy, by the way). He went to the cage and got into a discussion with the hitters. He told them they needed to work on avoiding strikeouts and hitting hard grounders, explaining that putting the ball in play on the ground puts a lot of pressure on the infield. then we walked over to where my pitchers were working out and he went into a long instruction on keeping the ball low, pitching to contact, and creating a lot of ground balls. I had to ask him, "So, I'm confused. Are grounders good or bad?" This was the early nineties and some of that same old instruction was still around from the 70's, but even then it didn't make sense to tell your hitters you want grounders because they are good for the offense and turn around and tell pitchers they want grounders because it's an advantage to the defense.

Next

Add Reply

Post
.

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×