HS Pitchers just pitching

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
Tiger Paw mom.
Thank you that is more of what I am looking for. Experience is a great teacher and if I can learn from your experiences that is great. Sounds like your son was taken good care of by the coach. I only hope that someday my son will be able to say the same. Right now with the coaches outlook on ptiching (7 innings or we can't use you) I don't believe that will be true.

Ahh, don't get me wrong, there was a time we had to speak up. That pitcher only, began to throw a lot more earlier in his senior year then he should have and that was the ONLY time Mr. TPM told any coach in the presence of the AD what he was going to do and not do. But on the whole, he was pretty well taken care of, the coach had to make his adjustments.
There comes a time, IMO, when health becomes an issue, a parent has a right to speak up, other than that, you have to learn to go with the flow to see how things play out.

quote:

Experience is a great teacher and if I can learn from your experiences that is great.

And, my experience tells me, that your interpretation of the coaches comment might not be exactly right.

Isn't that every pitchers goal to go a complete game within the pitch count?

I just watched a young soph D1 pitcher almost throw a complete game with a very low pitch count receive a lot of accolades.

bb1,

You seem to have stumbled into one of those gray areas of the game where your common sense comes into conflict with baseball dogma, and there’s many folks who don’t like to come to grips with the fact that although the game is the best game on the planet, there are some things in it that are the worst examples of how human beings should act.

It is unfortunate that there are other programs such as you describe, but it is reality. I think we’re all pretty lucky that it doesn’t happen more than it does!

Below is an example of this very same topic from another BB. A mom had started a thread about he son’s 1st HS game, and pointed out that the coach on the other team had let his starter go 136 pitches in that 1st game of the season. She thought that was terrible, and so did everyone else, but one fellow’s response got to me, so I responded.

He said: In regards to your particular game: … there isn't much you can do about it as a parent.

To which I responded the same way I’ve responded here, saying that it’s the parent’s responsibility to protect his/her child.

the coach can’t be blamed for a darned thing if there’s a parent in the stands that doesn’t intervene.

To which a coach in the Dallas area with a child currently in the Minor Leagues and the self professed greatest coach in Tx, the coach who single handedly brought travel ball to the lone star state, has a newsletter and web site where he sends out tons of tips to anyone who will listen, and participates in several bulletin boards giving advice, responded to me.

A couple of yrs ago there was a projected high draft pick pitcher in the Dallas area. Early in the season the kid had thrown 85 os so pitches through 6. They were winning. The coach left him in to finish. He struggled in the last inning and threw another 30 or so pitches. His dad came down to the dugout and pulled his son out and took him home (intervened). The next day the kid stayed home from school and cut practice. The coach threw him off the team as he should have. No high draft. No D1. He went to a JUCO and was never heard from again.

SK the idea that a parent should intervene is maybe the most irresponsible thing you have posted. Parents must understand , THEY ARE NOT AN AGENT! Sit back, shut up and let the kid deal with his baseball or a decent coach will show you the door.

Helicopter parents!

I responded as well as a couple of other folks, and probably the same way you would. But, that just shows you that what you’re experiencing is not a freakish occurrence! It happens every day and in lots of programs all over the country. Thankfully the percentage of programs it happens in is very small, but with the prodigious number of programs out there, it does happen a lot.

I think you’ve probably guessed I’ve never been one to just sit back and enjoy the ride while being oblivious to anything bad that happens. People of good conscience need to speak up, even if they realize there will be consequences. What’s the worst that could happen? A kid doesn’t get to play baseball anymore. Lots of kids never play baseball at all, and lots end their careers long before they get to HS, so is that the end of the world?

Just as in any conflict, there definitely are casualties, but its funny how many programs are forced to change their ways because people stand up for what’s right.

TPM:
All I can figure is your son's coach must have thought your boy was made out of glass!! Call me reckless but if my pitchers can play another spot; by cracky that's where you'll find them on the days they don't pitch... We get so many games jammed together for doubleheaders and rain if I had a full time pitcher he'd only make a few starts... what a waste. The kids go out for baseball, not "shortstop" let 'em play the game.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:

quote:

Experience is a great teacher and if I can learn from your experiences that is great.

And, my experience tells me, that your interpretation of the coaches comment might not be exactly right.

Isn't that every pitchers goal to go a complete game within the pitch count?

I just watched a young soph D1 pitcher almost throw a complete game with a very low pitch count receive a lot of accolades.

Good post FO.

As I stated, and IMO, just too much being put into this topic. Has this coach ever abused any pitcher, or is it a freshman parents perception?

trojan,
My son's volunteer HS coach was a scout and brother of head scouting director for major league team. They were very protective of son, as they felt and told the HC that he had a lot of upside.

A few years before one of the pitchers was used in every position and ended up first year in college with TJS, losing his scholarship. A really promising future gone wrong, IMO. He also had spoken up to us early on, telling us to watch carefully how son was used.

With that being said, they limited his role, but I am sure this does not happen often.

There are some very good HS coachs with the same philososphy as CoachB stated, and I think more and more are learning just how much those extra pitches, fatigue can hurt one's future if he shows potential beyond HS.

Parents are becoming more aware of the dangers as well, and the smart parent is the one who would rather see their rising pitcher play less and sit more.

I agree with TPM. If your son is a bonafid pitcher he should just pitch. One year my son's elite team lost 2 of thier top pitchers sliding into bases. Broke their arms. One was on a draft prospect list and never got back to form.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
trojan,
My son's volunteer HS coach was a scout and brother of head scouting director for major league team. They were very protective of son, as they felt and told the HC that he had a lot of upside.
That’s where kismet comes in, and where your son was very lucky indeed. It isn’t everyone who gets people with pull, lookin’ out for them.

A few years before one of the pitchers was used in every position and ended up first year in college with TJS, losing his scholarship. A really promising future gone wrong, IMO. He also had spoken up to us early on, telling us to watch carefully how son was used.

With that being said, they limited his role, but I am sure this does not happen often.
What’s sad isn’t that it happens, but that there are so few parents who truly understand what the ramifications are of improper or over use. Thankfully, along with everyone else becoming more erudite about the game, parents are too.

There are some very good HS coachs with the same philososphy as CoachB stated, and I think more and more are learning just how much those extra pitches, fatigue can hurt one's future if he shows potential beyond HS.
Should it really only be the ones who have “futures” in the game that get protected? IMHO, all the players should be protected, not just the ones who people think have potential.

Parents are becoming more aware of the dangers as well, and the smart parent is the one who would rather see their rising pitcher play less and sit more.
How much do you think the current rush to have little kids play 100’s of games while traveling all over the countryside before they even sniff the big field, have to do with problems later on?

How can those parents of young children get it pounded into their heads that a baseball career isn’t a sprint that starts when the kids are 6, but a long distance obstacle race that takes place of many years.

Scorekeeper,

That post by you and TPM was very good. I especially liked this...

quote:

a baseball career isn’t a sprint that starts when the kids are 6, but a long distance obstacle race that takes place of many years.

I've often heard it described as a marathon rather than a sprint, but you desribed it even more accurately... It really is an obstacle course!

Scorekeeper,
I am not in disagreement with your posts.

Can you keep is simple?

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Can you keep is simple?

I’m tryin’. Honest I am!

The trouble is, I don’t see any good answers about in depth baseball philosophies and situations as being simple.

We can all try as hard as we can, but once anyone looks much beyond the surface of any baseball discussion, things get really complicated really quickly, because there’s so many darn variables.

Everyone sees things differently and that is what makes this site so special. A kids arm is very fragile and based on some doctors opinions might not completely fuse until around age 22. There are a lot of problems that could occur between now and then if pitch counts are not monitored instead of innings.
At the very least a coach can keep talking to a kid to see how he feels. Keep a close eye on mechanics as they do change when tiredness sets in. Pitches get up in the zone etc.. If you study your kids you can know when they are out of gas. Then pull the kid for his own safety regardless of what the score is or whether he says he's fine or not. Any kid that's a competitor does not want to come out of a game but needs to know when enough is enough.
I've now done an about face.
I think that making a kid rest a day or two before playing in the field is reasonable depending on how many pitches he threw. I guess being a DH wouldn't be so bad.

Keep in mind that most MLB players were also the star pitchers on their high school teams, too.

What does this mean?

If my child is a star pitcher, and he is not allowed to play in the field, are not his opportunities limited? If all star pitchers are not allowed to play the field, to "protect" them, where do our future MLB stars come from?

The answer comes from the heart. Talk to your player and see where his future lies, from his own prospective.

I agree. That is why he was so concerned. Since they couldn't get outside for tryouts this year all freshman are still on freshman. He understands that because they can only see so much indoors. My son was told he is a role model for other kids with his attitude and work ethic and will get time in the outfield, DH and 1B. He will get a lot of pitching which worries me, what is a lot to them maybe too much for me. If he produces like he can then they will consider other options.
He is fine with this as he gets to stay with his friends and have fun. He also realizes that there is no rush to be playing up right now. His goal is to be starting on the Varsity by junior year. He's got time to work on his mechanics, his change and everything else without the pressure. Last year they did promote kids in mid season so you never know but right now he is probably better off where he is. You couldn't have convinced me of that before if I hadn't been on all these forums and learned so much.

bb1,
Funny but I just had to deal with this situation. We had a freshman during winter ball who was moved up with the JV. I gave all the kids roughly equal playing time but he struggled in the infield so he got moved to the outfield. Now that regulation practices have started and the real coaches are there he gets little or no playing time when not pitching and the reality is that although he's shown some ability to hit he's been inconsistent at the plate. On the other hand he's probably the best pitcher on the JV staff and if he's not he will be by the end of the season. This past weekend he dominated a fairly strong hitting JV team with 8 k's and one grounder back to him over 3 innings of work. I gunned one of our pitchers at 78-80 and the plate umpire told me this freshman was throwing much harder with much better control. Those 3 innings were all he played during the double header scrimmage. After the game he told his dad he still wanted to go back to the freshman team to get playing time in the field. My advice to the dad was to leave him where he was because in my opinion that would result in the best long term outlook for him. Same advice goes for your son. Stick with the JV team and work hard to earn playing time in the field.

TPM,
This weekend I got mad at my son's JV coach after he'd told my son he MIGHT pitch and gave him a not the least bit disguised dirty look when he put somebody else in for the last inning of a doubleheader and had yet another "pitcher" warming up behind him. (I was on the field umpiring.)

The truth of the matter was that my son's back was questionable and his arm was questionable that day and the last thing he needed was to pitch in that game. Sometimes there are coaches who do the right thing despite us parents.

I did apologize to the coach later that evening, and yes he had recognized the dirty look for just what it was.

CADad,
When pitchers head off to college, if not given a starting role, they spend many hours in the bullpen warming up and then someone else goes in.
The look won't quite get you brownie points.

bb1,
My son began his freshman year on JV and loved every minute of it. He played ss, hit and starting pitcher, we worried about his arm, but his innings were carefully controlled and their schedule was very LIGHT. He was moved to varsity as a pitcher and had to sit, he was most unhappy, in fact, he barely got in any innings as freshman on varsity.
As parents, it was tough to watch him spend so much time on the bench. First we worried about too much arm use, then we worried he was unhappy sitting. Never seems to be a happy medium when your son is a pitcher.
It's tough for us parents, but as I look back, I realize that lots of that anxiety was unnecessary. HS years are important years for player development, lots of learning goes on and lessons learned for everyone. You'll understand someday.

Sit back and relax, and try your hardest to be there whenever you can. Everything will work out in the end, and if you do feel that your son is being overused, well then you have a right to speak up, other than that, just enjoy!

I have to smile when I think back. At 9-10 my son was the only ball player I ever knew that came running over to me after striking out and said "Dad at what age do they DH me ?"
He couldn't care less about hitting but he did play several positions on 4 years of varsity. Elite from 15 on he only pitched and he loved it. He developed some pretty cool bench tricks.

bb1 - Sometimes we have to learn to trust those who make decisions based on their knowledge and experience and accept that we are parents. We love and support our kids but don't necessarily know what's in their best interest.

My son wanted to pitch as soon as he started LL, but he was new and the coach had kids he wanted to train as pitchers, so son played outfield.

Two years later he switched to Cal Ripken and wanted to pitch, but 10 yr olds were rookies and the coach wouldn't pitch a rookie, so he played outfield.

Pitching coach with many moons of experience spoke with son. Said "Kid, you're a pitcher. I can tell just by looking at you and next year I'm going to start to train you early - before the season begins." Son was excited. Then, in December, a month before he was to begin training with the pitching coach, he suffered a near fatal injury as the result of a playground accident. When baseball season rolled around, he was still in an aweful contraption similar to a halo. It was removed on the Friday before Memrial Day weekend and he was allowed to play... occassional outfield.

Again old pitching coach said "Kid, you're a pitcher and I'm going to train you early for next season." In October, just after son's 12th birthday, his kindly old pitching coach suffered a massive heart attack and died. Son was crushed by the loss and then again when team's head coach said he had enough pitchers. Son played the next 21 games at 1st base.

Same year, 12U season, son played for his first travel team - as an outfielder.

Finally, at 13, a young Kyle Jackson began teaching son to pitch. Just before KJ headed to spring training with the Red Sox rookie club, son slipped on ice and knocked his throwing shoulder out of the socket. Wasn't allowed to throw again until June and team used him as... drum roll please... an outfielder.

At 14, he played for the 9th grade team, as an 8th grader (and an outfielder) and also made the roster for the number one AAU program in our state (#4 team in New England at the time). Coaches were all former college players who remained actively involved in college athletics in various capacities (one's a college pitching coach and the other a director of sport information). Son was an outfielder/3B/RHP. At the plate, he was inconsistant. Sometimes he was very good and sometimes he couldn't hit the ball if you gave him a tennis racket. He went into a serious slump just before the team's national tournament. I emailed the head coach. I asked him to give me his honest assessment of my son's abilities and told him not to pull any punches. I straight out asked if it was time to pull the plug on baseball. Coach's response was something I, as the mother of an outfielder, never expected. He said "Your son is a pitcher, we knew it from the first day we ever saw him throw, and there isn't a college coach in the country who's going to care if he can hit."

As a HS freshman, son played 3B and pitched (with a broken wrist). As a sophomore, he became the school's only PO. He was bored and frustrated. He was accustomed to being on the field all the time and now he just bullpen'd, did pfp's, and ran (a lot). One day he asked the coach if there was some way he could be of more value to his team. Coach said "Son, you run like a pitcher, hit like a pitcher, and field like a pitcher - you're a pitcher." Son was insulted. Then mid-way through the season, 1st baseman fouled a bunt into his own eye (lots of blood, but he was okay after a couple of stitches). For a variety of reasons, son was the only player on the bench. Coach had to put him in at 1st but did so with a very stern "DO NOT GET HURT!" That was when son finally figured out that being a PO was his position and that it was important. Granted, its easier to be a pitcher only on his summer team because there are several of them, but noone in our house questions whether or not he would have/should have/could have been something else had he played other positions and been in the line-up. He's a pitcher. BTW - with regard to the HS coaches who made the decision to transition son to pitcher only - one was a 4 year college pitcher and the other a 4 year college catcher.

KM did you ever think about accident insurance ? Lots of it .