Hs recruitng - today's world

What about the kids who study as hard as they can and still can’t score high enough to get into an Ivy? I’m in the camp of kids should target the highest academic programs they can get into, but most kids aren’t going to get a 1250(stud player) - 1350+ SAT no matter how hard they try.

Goosegg - I wish I had this advice 15 years ago!     When you and I first met (many, many moons ago on another website), I think we were both trying to figure this thing out.   You're correct in hindsight, my son did not need to play for a national travel team for Ivy exposure.  However, his national travel team experience did indirectly lead him to some Ivy HC introductions off the field which he parlayed into more Ivy HC introductions.  It was not our intended plan, but it worked and we weren't asking questions why.  The net result was that my son did exactly as you suggested by focusing on academics and being the best baseball player he could be.   Ivy coaches took notice of that and began recruiting him because he was challenging himself and playing for a top travel team.  So, in our case it was kind of backwards.

I do think there is one thing that has changed significantly in Ivy recruiting.   These Ivy coaches want to hear more about professional baseball aspirations now than when our sons played.  The coaches want to be asked about summer college baseball placement and former players playing professionally.  It seems to me this is something these Ivy coaches are wanting to hear more about from their recruits.   If you look back at our experiences they were very different.   Your son played summer college baseball every year he could.  I think he started in the Northwoods League and moved up every year.   He had a great senior year and got drafted.  My son did summer engineering internships every year.   My son had a great sophomore year then was injured his junior year.  He had no sniffs at being drafted, nor any expectations of being drafted.   What I'm saying is I don't think my son would get away with not playing summer baseball these days if he was being recruited by Ivys.   The feedback I'm getting is that it is expected these days, although it might not be communicated directly by the Ivy HC.

When are we going to collaborate on a book? 

W

Terrible.

Its not easy; not every kid who does his max - either in the classroom or developing skills can do it. There are many, many reasons why either side of the equation cannot be done - regardless of effort, regardless of resources. But, i also know of families who paid huge sums to national teams when those sums could have been applied to the academic side of the equation - and whose kids absolutey has that potential. Not all - or even most or some - families have the economic wherewithal to do both.

Only 56 slots per year are available.

But, if a kid can do it, I'd suggest ignoring the siren calls for other leagues.

Also, I believe that the earlier a kid understands that the family has dual priorities - on study habits/school, the greater his chances. By the time HS is reached, the die has been cast.

In the pre-Covid times, I think a HS player had a better shot at succeeding at a power program than currently. Current conditions make an Ivy baseball career even more attractive (iow, nothing baseball wise has changed in the Ivy world for players who want to take baseball further (as Fenway articulated)).

Also, I think a true stud's score is 1200. A true stud is basically a can't miss, true MLB prospect (and there aren't too many of those).

Fenway, absent that injury your son would have needed to make a decision on delaying his real career. He had a dream year. And his injury makes my point even more poignant: there is a seemless backup plan automatically in place when a baseball wall is hit.

I know there are there are Dartmouth engineers still playing (see the Sulser brothers).

I completely agree with the strategy, I just don't think it's possible for many average academic kids to focus more on academics and achieve the necessary test scores. There are many Ivy players in the past couple of classes that were heavily recruited by P5 schools.

I would add that the academic focus doesn't need to be strictly Ivy, although they are somewhat the easiest to get through admissions compared to some of the HA D3 schools

Our baseball player just graduated high school this year. He’s still working to continue to play ball but the chance is slim.

One thing I can think of now I would have changed 5 years ago is establishing expectations of grades to continue to play ball. He’s a mid 3’s GPA on a 4 scale so it didn’t end up being an issue but identifying the expectation up front would have reinforced the need for good grades and THEN play baseball. You don’t have good grades, we as parents don’t continue to pay for club ball. Gotta have the priorities straight for sure - just being good at the athletic side does not go as far as kids think at the college level.

We absolutely agree!

Barring a severe learning disability (and many can be overcome) the difference in those that get good grades and those that don't is a willingness to put in the effort (whether that level is because they can, can't or don't want to).   An appropriate value needs to be placed on education and that student's efforts in their school work is prized and praised by their parents as much as their athletic accomplishments.  Getting good grades takes work, it's not just a matter of being smart.  Some kids need to work harder than others, but everyone needs to put in the work.   Most students of average intelligence could get high grades if they put in the work.  BUT, it's easier to want to work hard when it's appreciated.  So, that means you don't just stick a kid in a room with a book and say try harder, someone who struggles needs help to get the most out of their effort.  So I agree 100% that taking a bit of that high priced travel ball or private lesson money and spending it on a tutor, or spending some time to test your kid for some potential learning issues, is money well spent.

Man, I just looked at headfirst, they want 1395 for a showcase.  Ouch!  I like all the info though.  2027 is a 4.0 student, so this could be a good option for him. (about going the IVY league route, not the showcase)

@Dadof3 posted:

Man, I just looked at headfirst, they want 1395 for a showcase.  Ouch!  I like all the info though.  2027 is a 4.0 student, so this could be a good option for him.

There is definitely value to Headfirst and Showball. You need to determine which is the best fit based on the schools attending. No need to worry about it until his rising senior summer, unless he is targeting Ivy schools. Very few schools at those events are targeting rising juniors. Having a strong test score to go with the GPA will be important. Makes it easier on a coach to get the player through admissions.

@Dadof3 posted:

Man, I just looked at headfirst, they want 1395 for a showcase.  Ouch!  I like all the info though.  2027 is a 4.0 student, so this could be a good option for him. (about going the IVY league route, not the showcase)

If your son is a position player get to the Ivy Camps as incoming junior....all the coaches will see two days of reps, also, there will be a few Patriot League, and NESCAC HAD3 coaches assisting.

Awesome, thanks.  Will do

Whew, $1395 now.  It was worth it for my son - although the school where he ended up had already started recruiting him before he went.  But it confirmed for us where he fit.

Interesting that Ivies now want potential players to show interest in summer ball, I do see a lot of them playing.

Not sure about all the Ivy's but there was at least 1 that took a transfer this past season. If that becomes more widespread will make it even more difficult.

@nycdad posted:

Not sure about all the Ivy's but there was at least 1 that took a transfer this past season. If that becomes more widespread will make it even more difficult.

Do you know if that counted as one of their 7?

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Do you know if that counted as one of their 7?

I don't know. He actually came from a JUCO. He went 4-2-4. Started at a P5 HA didn't play, and went to a JUCO the following year.

@nycdad posted:

I don't know. He actually came from a JUCO. He went 4-2-4. Started at a P5 HA didn't play, and went to a JUCO the following year.

That's kind of a strange route.

@nycdad, @HSDad22, @TerribleBPthrower,

In my experience there are a few Ivys (not all) that allow for JUCO transfers.  My son played with a guy who went D1 P5 (ACC) to JUCO to Ivy.   There was another guy who went JUCO (SUNY system in NY) to Ivy.  My son's University has both a public and private charter, and this guy applied to a public college within the University after junior college.  Yes, it is a different route for sure. 

I believe Goosegg was using 7 as a theoretical number as Ivy rosters vary from mostly between 28-35 players depending on the school, funding and team makeup.   I do recall seeing one school (can't remember who...think it was Brown) had a roster of 24 one year.   My son's freshmen recruiting class was 8 on a team of 35 at the time.  So, I think you can use a  range of 56 to 64 recruited freshmen per class.

I believe they are currently allowed 7 slots/recruited players. Every Ivy coach that has spoken to parents at showcases the past couple summers stated they are only given 7 slots. I’ve also heard them tell players they will recommend them to admissions but won’t get a slot. If they still get in they are on the team.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

I believe they are currently allowed 7 slots/recruited players. Every Ivy coach that has spoken to parents at showcases the past couple summers stated they are only given 7 slots. I’ve also heard them tell players they will recommend them to admissions but won’t get a slot. If they still get in they are on the team.

To clarify.....

My son was offered by two Ivys.  One had 7 total slots and the other 8 total slots for the freshmen class.   School A had 7 total slots with 5 Likely Letter recruits plus 2 ED recruits that would get a tip by the Coach with ED admissions, but with no guarantees.   School B had 8 total slots with 5 Likely Letter recruits plus 3 ED recruits that would get a tip by the Coach with ED admissions, but with no guarantees.   The Likely Letters were essentially guarantees directly from Admissions (sent out in November) championed by the HC.  The ED recruits had to wait for normal admission notification in early December.   That is how the math worked 13 years ago.    I haven't heard anybody tell me it is different today in terms of a combination of Likely Letters and ED recruits that can (essentially) get in on their own via ED and coaches tip.   BTW...LL recruits also have to apply ED.   I've seen various strategies used by Ivy HCs to get the players they want, and I don't believe the slotted method of LL + ED recruits has changed at all.

There is a bigger picture here that takes into account the total number of slots across all Ivy athletics at a school.  The total number of slots and athletes is managed by the AD, and he/she determines how many slots get divided up by each sport based on graduation, turnover, etc...  So, in my example above that is why you have different numbers for the same sport at different schools.

I hope this makes sense.

5 Ivy players taken in the draft this year...

Harvard - 2

Princeton -2

Columbia - 1

That's 5 Ivy players drafted from 19 Ivy players registered in the draft.

19 players represented by 6 of the 8 schools.

3 of the 5 drafted are juniors. They have some decisions to make!

Imo, there's no debate for the juniors: sign!

MLB will fund the rest of your degree. Both juniors taken from son's team finished their degrees while playing (and both made it all the way). There's plenty of time to finish a degree; the shelf life of a milb player is way to short to take a chance.

This is the dream these guys have had since they were little and they didn't give up those dreams just because they went to an Ivy.

And, it proves the point I've been making for years: you sacrifice NO baseball dreams by choosing an Ivy.

For the drafted Ivy seniors - all of whom have had job offers since middle of first semester senior year - the tradition is the employer will pick you up when your career is over (see e.g., my son).

Congrats to those who baked their cake and now will enjoy eating it.

Kind of surprised a couple of Penn guys at the top of their rotation and batting order didn't get drafted.  They had a great year.

I've been studying the draft for the last few years and I have to admit, it's really tough to understand some of the picks! We'll have a much better picture after the 25th when we see who signs and for how much! You really can't draw any conclusions from the the draft until then!

I have to agree with @fenwaysouth, Penn had 4 players in the draft (2 pitchers and 2 position players). I thought both position players, 1 junior 3B and 1 senior C,  had a good chance at being drafted, especially the 3B.

Slash lines:

3B:   .321/.383/.661 (18 HR, 15 BB, 45 K)
C:     .300/.389/.467 (4 HR, 25 BB, 26 K)

We really don't know what discussions may or may not have occurred between teams and those players but I believe that MLB teams believe Ivy players are a little harder to sign, especially in later rounds

The catcher will be playing at a P3 school next year and of course the 3B has a chance to improve his stock even more AND graduate on schedule.

Typically, as draft day gets closer, teams will find what signing bonus it takes to sign a junior/player with eligibility remaining.

Teams will even call during draft day to further discover the price. So, it could be price (bonus). A player can price himself out of the draft as a junior. And remember, a team can sign these guys as free agents.

OTOH, Mike Ford - one of the best players to come out of the Ivy league  - went undrafted as a junior. After hitting 400ish at the Cape as a rising senior, the Yanks signed him (rumor was the bonus was equal to a typical junior drafted in the lower rounds) before his senior year began. (Ford's story is a tale of perseverance; hopefully he's made it up permanently.)

As with anything there are two components to making good decisions. The quantitative analysis (the metrics), which is extremely important. And then there are the qualitative discussions (understanding character, work ethic, goals, personality alignment with team culture, etc.). Not saying those not selected are of poor character. Just saying that the qualitative portion is hard to measure in metrics/data.

Disclaimer - Yes, I am an engineer.

I wonder for late round guys if being in a region covered by a scout that has the organizations ear vs. in a region with a scout that hasn't quite built that yet, has any influence on who gets the draft slots.  I wonder how collaborative it is, or if it's like anywhere else that may talk about collaboration but the big boss only listens to his guys.

@HSDad22 posted:

I wonder for late round guys if being in a region covered by a scout that has the organizations ear vs. in a region with a scout that hasn't quite built that yet, has any influence on who gets the draft slots.  I wonder how collaborative it is, or if it's like anywhere else that may talk about collaboration but the big boss only listens to his guys.

http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/p...g/scouting_ranks.htm

This is  original information posted here but I think pretty accurate on how the system  works.

TPM, very accurate.

I'd add that over the past 20 years, technology has really been used to "consistencize" scouting reports. Twenty years ago, scouts from the regions would fly to the mothership and rank the entire draft board; arguing, using their wiles  - to get their guys drafted (remember a regional scout gets a bit of money for each guy drafted, and even later as they are promoted). The personal relationships with the higher-ups, seniority, the guy who had a great pick who made it, etc., impacted the board.

More recently, the area scouts drop their video to mothership, where the hierarchy can view every player on the board (i.e., the same pair of eyes evaluate each player). For the top rounds - and for promising HS kids  - the hierarchy described in the article make the pilgrimage to the player. There the family can be met and all the soft skills missing from a video can be evaluated; that's important for the can't miss prospects, not so important for juniors being drafted.

Princeton had two players drafted, the second in the last round.  Columbia had another sign as an UDFA today.  Could the difference be that Penn was the only Ivy to play through COVID, so those players had less leverage in the draft, as every other Ivy player had two years of eligibility left?  Just a thought. 

Harvard had a pitcher drafted in the 5th round. “Late bloomer” who was one of the hardest throwers at the MLB Combine.

@Goosegg posted:

TPM, very accurate.

I'd add that over the past 20 years, technology has really been used to "consistencize" scouting reports. Twenty years ago, scouts from the regions would fly to the mothership and rank the entire draft board; arguing, using their wiles  - to get their guys drafted (remember a regional scout gets a bit of money for each guy drafted, and even later as they are promoted). The personal relationships with the higher-ups, seniority, the guy who had a great pick who made it, etc., impacted the board.

More recently, the area scouts drop their video to mothership, where the hierarchy can view every player on the board (i.e., the same pair of eyes evaluate each player). For the top rounds - and for promising HS kids  - the hierarchy described in the article make the pilgrimage to the player. There the family can be met and all the soft skills missing from a video can be evaluated; that's important for the can't miss prospects, not so important for juniors being drafted.

@Goosegg

I know how it works.

Thought that what I posted was easy to understand. I imagine Bob Howdeshell posted it at the conception of the site which seems like a lifetime ago.

While in Gainesville we met up with a Tampa Bay area scout who we have known for years.  He came to see a specific pitcher who was expected to be taken early on the first day. We thought that was a good choice but turns out the pitcher was taken by the team in his home state!

I love when that happens!

During our Area Code games, MLB sent in their film crew. Every players was filmed and sent to the 30 teams.when I visited with the President of the Mariners I viewed the film. Later we organized the first pro team to travel to China.
Bob

@RHP_Parent posted:

Princeton had two players drafted, the second in the last round.  Columbia had another sign as an UDFA today.  Could the difference be that Penn was the only Ivy to play through COVID, so those players had less leverage in the draft, as every other Ivy player had two years of eligibility left?  Just a thought.

Great point.  I think you're onto something here.

@RHP_Parent posted:

Princeton had two players drafted, the second in the last round.  Columbia had another sign as an UDFA today.  Could the difference be that Penn was the only Ivy to play through COVID, so those players had less leverage in the draft, as every other Ivy player had two years of eligibility left?  Just a thought.

No, all Ivy schools got two years (2020 & 2021). Penn played 14 games in the spring of 2021.

The seniors who just graduated have 2 years of eligibility remaining--the same as juniors who will still have one year remaining after graduation next year.

https://www.ncaa.org/news/2021...gibility-waiver.aspx

ABSORBER got it right. Thank you.

There are 9 Pennsylvania players in the D1 portal. 6 are committed to play at other programs next year.

I didn't know that 30% rule.  I'm baffled as well. Penn had a great team this year, particularly at 3B and C.  Of course their 2nd starter will be drafted next year for sure, but he's a sophomore this year.  I wonder if those other players just had different career goals. 

The Ivy League Player of the Year, a recent graduate, who was committed to Duke as a grad transfer, signed an UDFA contract with the Angels (as @RHP_Parent mentioned).

He could sign for $150K but I don't think UDFA bonuses are made public like draft bonuses so we won't know.

I do believe an Ivy player who has not yet graduated and has either one or two years of eligibility left may be smart to graduate, especially if he thinks he can improve his draft stock.

By the way, last year's Ivy Player of the Year also signed as an UDFA with St Louis after having a pretty good 2023 season in the PAC 12 as a grad student.

I definitely would like to get more information regarding all the differences between drafted players and UDFAs. As an example, my understanding is some teams purposely do NOT draft certain players because they knew they will (or plan to) sign them as UDFAs.