Hypothetical Question

I don't know of a specific ruling covering this if the BR continues to first and you just throw him out. However, there is a ruling for the appeal if the BR stops because he thinks that was the third out and gives up.

quote:

Originally posted by NCGuy:
I can find no explicit wording in baseball rule books that allow for a strategic fourth out that is not an appeal play.

Exactly.

Only appeal plays can be made for an advantageous extra out.

Ok... this is a good question.

I would have to say that as soon as the 3rd out happened on the tag the inning is over. The 4th out rule (my opinion) really applies to an appeal play. Since the play at 1st is NOT an appeal I would have to say that the 4th out rule does not apply...

Not sure if I am right but if that happened today on the field that is how I would rule the play... I might have to circle the wagons...

Yep....the Advantageous 4th Out applies only to baserunning errors.

That's why I said if the BR quit advancing to first then they could appeal the out and negate the run. If he keeps advancing then score the run.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
That's why I said if the BR quit advancing to first then they could appeal the out and negate the run. If he keeps advancing then score the run.

No, they can't--unless he reaches the dugout before the third out. To get an appeal, the infraction has to occur before the third out, and desertion is not an infraction until the BR reaches dead-ball territory.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
That's why I said if the BR quit advancing to first then they could appeal the out and negate the run. If he keeps advancing then score the run.

No, they can't--unless he reaches the dugout before the third out. To get an appeal, the infraction has to occur before the third out, and desertion is not an infraction until the BR reaches dead-ball territory.

Correct.

I'm not saying it is disertion, he didn't complete his advance to first so he is subject to appeal. I didn't like the ruling when it was made but it was made by PBUC originally, followed by Fed and I believe NCAA. I no longer have a copy of the BRD but if someone does, check it out. Steve Friex presented about 10 yrs ago and that was the ruling. The next time you see it called will be the first.

I have both BRD and J/R from 2004 (but not newer). The rulings go beyond what Michael Taylor remembers.

J/R has this example of an advantageous 4th out, in Chapter 10, determining a run:
Not an appeal: Bases loaded, two outs. The batter singles and R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. The batter has been injured and is unable to advance to first, prompting the defense to throw to first against him: this is an advantageous fourth out and superceded the former third out, and no run can score.

Notice that J/R classifies this as "not an appeal", and they do not describe this as desertion (a term popularized by them). However, everywhere else in J/R, the 4th out is always described as an appeal against a violation of the rules.

In the 2004 BRD, Childress says that an email from Hopkins (FED) to Stevens (state interpreter) says if B/R has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play at first for the 4th out. (Maybe Jimmy03 can comment on this.)

Childress says that the NCAA website also had this interp (by Fetchiet) on their website, observed on 4/18/01. And he says that Fitpatrick (PBUC) gave the same interp in an email to CC in 2001.

Again, no appeal or desertion is involved.

Childress reported these three rulings, but was "astonished" by them.

I'm curious if J/R still has this interp, but not enough to buy a new edition.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I no longer have a copy of the BRD but if someone does, check it out.

In the 2009 BRD it states:

Off Interp-2-3 HOPKINS: If the defense gains a third out during the play but the batter runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him for an advantageous fourth out.

NCAA Off Interp 3-3 Fetchiet- same as Fed

OBR Off Interp 4-3 Fitzpatrick- same as Fed

My Jaksa/Roder is a 2004 as well, so I am of no help there...