I got burned on this one, too!

quote:

just pivots very quickly as he whips

I need a better description. What is his pivot foot doing at the same time?

I had a right hander attempt a similar move and I balked him. This pitcher, lifted the free foot (started the pitching motion) then quickly turned his free foot towards 1B and made a heck of a submarine sling to the bag.

Regardless that his free foot did indeed gain distance and direction, sorry it was to late, IMO he started the pitching motion as soon as he lifted the free foot.

My guy didn't lift his stride leg, and then swing towards first. He very quickly spins and submarines the ball over. I think the problem came in because the plate ump hadn't seen that type of move before and he balked it before he had a chance to think about it, and then his pride wouldn't allow him to re-consider.

For the record, the bases ump told me he didn't have a balk at all, and he disagreed with the plate, but couldn't reason with him.

"He very quickly spins and submarines the ball over."

If he did not step towards 1st base it's a balk.

Based on everything you have described the call is correct.

06catcherdad,

In another post there was a great deal of discussion concerning what "stepping toward" first base means; and a righty is required to step toward the base just as a lefty is. The only difference is that the righty has to turn around first. However, there is another part to consider. The step must preceed the throw.
To throw ahead of the step (snap throw, then step)is illegal and is a balk.
I don't have a real clear picture in my head of what your pitcher's move looks like but if his throw is released before he completes his step toward first it's a balk.
All of that aside, you indicated that the ump said he didn't step toward first base and it may be true that he was seeing something that he wasn't accustomed to so he figured it must be a balk. Well, you can argue until...
a) you're blue in the face or...
b) 'till the cows come home or...
c) until you get ejected...
but if he discussed it with his partner and didn't change his call then for that time in that game it's a balk.

06catcherdad,

The way you explained it makes it seem like he does not gain ground to first, preceeding the throw, in that case it is a balk, I think the umpire just messed up when he said he went to the plate first. Other than that, it is a judgement call.

I completely understand what you're saying, pilsner, but think about this. It's physically impossible for a right hander to NOT step toward first to throw that way. He pivoted toward the bag before he made the throw, but like any other righty, it was done quickly. If you step toward the plate and throw to first, you'd have to contort your torso around backwards at an extreme angle and I've never seen anyone who could do it that far. Have you?

As a post-script. That same ump, in the 7th inning of the game with the same battery, directed "play ball" after my pitcher had thrown 1 warm up pitch. My catcher, who'd never turned around or done anything obvious the whole game, turned to me and called for help. I went out to see why the ump had directed the game to start without proper warmup and he said, "becuase I said play ball and that's what we're gonna do. I pointed out that pitchers normally get 5 pitches and he wouldn't allow it, he said we were running out of time. Note: we were in the 7th inning of a 7 inning game, and at an hour and 40 minutes of a 2 hr. 10 minute time limit for no new inning. Since he wouldn't give me a reason other than "because I said so", I stood my ground and told the ump that my pitcher was going to take his 5 warmups whether he liked it or not, and we weren't going to re-start the game until he got them. The whole time, I was very polite, faced the crowd and talked with a smile on my face. I wouldn't give him a reason that anyone could see to toss me, so he just stood there and got redder and redder while my pitcher kept warming up. When he'd taken his 5th warmup pitch, I said thank you and left the field. Ten seconds later, he dumps my catcher out of the game. I didn't get 1/2 way out to ask what happened, and he yells that if I take another step he'll toss me too! ??? When my catcher is taking off his shinguards, I asked him what happened. He said that mr. blue told him that he'd better never embarass him again by asking for my help and my catcher responded that he wouldn't if the ump would quit messing our pitcher around. He said it from his crouch, facing the mound, and got dumpted for it. After the game, the bases ump came over and apologized for his partner's conduct and said he had no idea what the guys problem was, and that he was gonna write a report to his association.

Bottom line, the guy just had a red-*ss that night. Sometimes, stuff happens.

quote:

He pivoted toward the bag before he made the throw, but like any other righty, it was done quickly

Two legal moves for the righty,
Jump step, both feet leave the ground or jab step, R foot comes off towards 3b, jabs, as the free foot goes towards 1b, as, as in same time.

If he's doing either of those and is real quick, and can submarine it, he's got a good move.
But if he's just "spinning", I'm picturing a balk.

As far as the other stuff, you should have also followed up with this umpires association.
Salvage what's left of the game and play on.

My only ejection as a coach, I did the same thing, with a more than pleasurable response from the association I might add.
No association wants these types of occurances.

06catcherdad,

I wasn't suggesting that the pitcher did or didn't do what was indicated by the umpire. Only that the ump explained it that way and because of that you and your pitcher were stuck with the balk call.

I agree that a right handed pitcher would be very contorted if he stepped toward the plate and threw to first base and I have yet to see a pitcher try it.

As for all of the other stuff. I see mistakes the ump made. I also see mistakes your catcher made and I see mistakes that you made.

i think the jump step part is the key we are missing.either step off or jump step. it doesn't sound like he stepped off.
played a team a few years back righty pitcher picked off a couple of my kids.i was watching other things going on so i didn't see his move but thought he must have a good move.when we all saw his move he was stepping to home then spinning or jump stepping over. balk. funny thing even the umps didn't see it the first two times.his coach argued it was the same move as before.

quote:

After the game, the bases ump came over and apologized for his partner's conduct and said he had no idea what the guys problem was, and that he was gonna write a report to his association.

If you were the partner on the bases in this game, would you have said this to the coach? I am a firm believer that an association should be like a brotherhood, and I think that this is something you do not do. I think that it would not be a bad thing to report to the commissioner of the association, but this is definetely not something to talk about with the coach because like it was pointed out after, he may have had a bad night. Whenever something like this comes up or a coach comes up to me during or after the game, I don't sell my partner out because it makes him less credible as an umpire and really hurt his reputation. I do not think that this BU would have liked someone saying something like this to a coach on a night when he's kicking calls.

johntaine21,

When the game is over my partner and I leave the field, period. Neither of us stay to discuss matters with the coach. For the base ump to approach the coach with an apology or any other comments after the game is truly in bad form. If the BU was concerned with anything his partner did or didn't do during the game he should discuss it with him after the game and away from the field.

I've been away on vacation for awhile and didn't check back here to follow-up. A couple comments might be in order.

First, the pitcher in question has used that move dozens of times over the last few seasons and no other umpire has called it a balk, and no coach has ever protested his motion, so this guy was hanging out there all alone in his judgement. It was never a balk before, and hasn't been since.

Second, when the guy told me why he'd balked him, after I pointed out how its physically impossible to do what he said the pitcher was doing, left the field without arguing further. I know when I'm wasting my time and will save my bullets for others battles, so to speak. Our discussion was pretty short and to the point.

Third, somewhere during the game we had another minor dustup that I don't recall the details of, other than the plate ump initiated it too. The bases ump immediately came between us and diplomatically told me to back off and he'd deal with it. I did so right away, and he came over to me after conferring with his partner and said something to the effect of, "he's wrong, but its his judgement call and I'm gonna honor him, so its gonna stand with no more discussion." I was fine with that and left the field.

This was in a PG tournament and it was bad enough that they summoned the tournament director to come to our field to see what all the fuss was about. We talked after the game and I told the TD that it was time to let it drop, but just please don't put us on the same field again in that tournament. Somehow, it worked out that way.

The punchline... We were at another tournament five weeks later and got assigned the same guy, butthis time he's on the bases. He actually told me before the game that this was a new game and neither of us should remember last time we saw each other. I didn't use the same pitcher, and everything went fine.

quote:

If you were the partner on the bases in this game, would you have said this to the coach?

Well, I'm gonna make you feel worse then cause you reminded me of a game I coached last year.

Home plate umpire was a real smart-a$$. Making wisecracks all game about this and that. Nothin' straight, just chirpin. Late in the game our pitcher throws a pitch high and tight and you hear a little nick...sounds to me like it nicks the catcher's glove. But HP umpire awards the batter 1B on a HBP. I come out and ask if he's sure it hit the batter and not the catcher's mit. He answers, "Well coach, do you see a runner at 1B? Then I guess it hit the batter."

Smoke must be pourin' out my ears case the field ump yells, "TIME!" "Coach, come here." I go out ready to get pounded and he says, "Coach, we got a real problem here...you are 100% right...I need YOU to help me calm this thing down or this game will get out of hand."

Stunned, I say "ok" and head back to the dugout. Is that sellin' your partner out or what?

I thought it was pretty funny to be honest. And that base umpire has my respect because he saw what an idiot his partner was all game.

I think we had those guys last night in our championship game.

Extremely close game, in the rain. We have a runner at first with a good lead ball is hit to the short stop, second baseman goes to cover the bag and stradles it so that is left foot is completely covering base. Our runner must slide according to rules right? So he slides into the bag. Ump calls interference as 2nd base can't make the play. Calls out our runner at second and the batter (which would have eventually scored).

When the coach asks why he said he said he just interfered. Didn't come in with spikes, didn't come in with hands up, or anything like that (umps words)just interfered with the play. ????Huh? Where is supposed to slide? After that, we never did get a call, even an obvious pick off that later scored the winning run.

bbfam - Were you at Twin Creeks? We were in the 14U championship game last night too.

Justbaseball--We were up in Redding. Kind of another eye opener tournament for our family. We may be seeing more of you sooner rather than later

There is not a must slide rule if you are playing Federation Rules. As far as the call, it is the umpire judgement on determining interference on this play.

If you slide, it must be a legal slide, which is directly into the bag. Any type of hook-slide, pop-up slide, etc could be a cause for enforcing the "force play slide rule".

Basically it's a horrible rule for an umpire. I have only called it one time all of last year.

This was a 13 year old USSSA tournament. If he doesn't slide he's automatically out, the second baseman is blocking the base, so our runner had no where to slide but into him. Their player was standing with his left foot blocking entire base, right foot on the other side. Doesn't put you in a good position to make throw, so either it is a set up to get slid into or kid hasn't been taught properly to avoid a collision. Anyhow, the ump said the slide was clean but since the second baseman fell, it was interference.

BBfam, I have to disagree with the umpire on your situation. As long as the slide is straight into the bag, and the baserunner doesn't go over the bag or pop-up, there is no interference. It is not the baserunner's fault that the 2nd baseman used poor technique and received contact.

If the baserunner had slid over the bag or past it, I have interference, but if he just slid into the front of the bag, he did it correctly.

If anything it would have been an obstruction call on the fielder not interference on the runner.
Pirate Fan:
Why do feel the FPSR is a bad rule for umpires. It's a safety rule for HS and NCAA to protect the fielders. Call it consistantly and arguments will go away. Call it inconsistantly or infrequently then coaches will get upset.

I don't have an issue with FPSR. It's not hard to understand - if coaches teach to always legally slide directly to the bag on a force play, there aren't any issues. Its clear as can be, from a rules standpoint.

I understand the purpose of the rule is all about safety. The reason I do not like the rule is it is way to open for interpretation and judgement.

Obviously, if you have it you can call and if you do not have it you do not call. It's all the grey in between that the inconsistantly occurs. One reason, is you do not see the FPSR enough times, (i.e. strike zone, balks, etc) to correctly the interpt the grey area.

I have seen the play described in this thread called both ways by umpires.

It's funny that you say that is too open to interpretation. Like many rules in HS it is there for the opposite reson. There shouldn't be any interpretation involved, if applied correctly. In a force play if the runner slides at the base and contacts the fielder in front on over the base then it is legal. If he slides to the side or slides over the base and contacts the fielder beyond the base, then it is a FPSR violation, the runner is out and the BR is also.
There is no wiggle room. It is or isn't a violation. What happens is some umpires think that the rule is silly or isn't real baseball, so they don't enforce it. This isn't an interpretation, it is an umpire choosing to ignore a rule put there by either the Fed or NCAA rules committee for safety purposes. What this does is makes it tough for others when they enforce it when they chose not to.
I'm notting busting your chops over this but I am instead explaining what happens when a simple thing isn't done consistantly or properly.
Last year I called it in a varsity game against a very good school. The manager came out and asked why it is a violation and not just good baseball. I explained it there as a safety rule. I also conceded that when we played it was just good baseball but it is now illegal. He didn't do anything malicious, no high leg, pop-up or grab, but it was still a double play. All this was done without screaming or hollering but he was very insistant. He did say that I had never try that in a college game. I informed him that the rule was a NCAA rule first and it was certainly called at that level. The interesting thing is he still plays in our adult men's league and they use the same rule. Guess where he saw it the next time? He saw it called three times in the summer league, twice against his team and once for his team. I ended up having about the same conversation with his manager.
In our men's league, the entire BOD consists of umpires.

quote:

I have seen the play described in this thread called both ways by umpires.

You can say that about ANY play in baseball.