I need to draw on your experience...

Many (most?) on here will disagree with me, but I agree with you when you said this:

quote:

In my opinion they will be better prepared by playing at 54/80 because the game speed is much faster, as well as the pitching.

Its all about the 'speed of the game.' The only real problem with the shorter field is that a truly dominant pitcher can really dominate. Other than that...the shorter field much more closely simulates HS varsity baseball game speed than the larger field.

As with all things, there are considerations.

Have they only played on the small field (ummm....60' bases?) to date??? I would have expected them to be playing on the mid or full size field for at least the last year or two.

There are additional challenges at all positions, but particularly with pitching and hitting, on the full-sized field. I would recommend using the season(s) before entering hs to get over most of this learning curve. There's not much use for a 54' fast ball in hs, and what with hitting being timing, that last 6' is crucial to that learning curve as well.

The only advantage to the smaller field that jumps to mind is one of confidence, but that confidence will be immaterial if it doesn't translate to the hs tryouts on the full-sized field.

The better 14 year olds should be playing on a regulation size field. IMO the transformation should take place at 13 years old.

We see some 14 year olds that dominate older kids on a full size field. Can't even imagine them at 54 feet! a 14 year old throwing 90 mph (yes there are some) would be throwing the equivilant (in reaction time) of 100 mph at 54 feet.

Worse yet is the danger factor for the pitcher throwing to a 14 year old who can hit the ball like a man.

There are many 14 year olds playing on their high school teams around the country.

All that said, I think the 14 year olds with outstanding talent should be playing up anyway. So maybe it's not that big of a deal.

My opinion is that if they are top-notch players in your area they are ready at 14 for the big field. On that field they will meet better players and be challenged by both the longer distances and the opponents.
If they are middle or lower tier they should play on the mid-sized field.
...

I'd be interested to hear what junior high or middle school teams are playing at. I'm pretty sure in southern Illinois, they play 80 foot bases and 57 foot pitching distance.

Thank you everyone.

The kids have played on both 60/90 and 54/80. The biggest difference I've noticed is the slower reaction times needed at the plate and the added time allowed to the infield to make the plays.

Pitchers have struggled at 60 feet with breaking balls and off speed pitches more than fastballs.

Batters are a little early at times but once they adjust, which will happen quickly, they hit more than at 54'.

Stealing is harder and base running is diffeerent because of the added 10 feet.

It seems to me that the arms are ready for 90 foot bases. The runners need to adjust more than the fielders.

I haven't seen any 90 mph fastballs but I have seen 80's. And you are right about it being unbelievable at 54'. But I've also seen high school kids struggle against 80 mph from 60' and our kids light it up from 60'.

It is all timing.

Thanks.

I have only heard of 13u playing on 54-80 fields. By 14 they should be on the 60-90 field for sure. If they are not ready for the full size field at 14 maybe they may never be ready.

Going, JMHO, but I think you would do a disservice to your players by playing on a small field. 14U is the last summer before high school ball and they need to be ready to play on a regulation field.

I don't see any benefit to playing on a small field, but I do see danger. 54' bases puts your corner infielders and pitcher too close to hitters and your hitters too close to wild pitchers. If you want to speed up the game and challenge your team, play against some 15U teams (preferably in wood bat tournaments).

Do you really want your players to show up to their high school tryouts having had very limited experience on a full size diamond? Let them get used to real baseball. They will adjust to the field.

For the record, our 13U group plays mainly on an 80' field but we mix in a bit on the 90' field in the summer and then go exclusively 90' in the fall. By 14U spring, they never go back.

Good luck,
Mike F

Mike F,
You hit on my real love... wood bat!

I see your points and thanks again. It looks like we will be forced into a mix at least.

I don't know why it's different here, but 54/80 is still fairly regular for 14U.

I really would like to see the whole thing go to wood! Good hitters can still hit, but good pitchers can really be rewarded for hitting their spots.

I'm an advocate of moving a player to match his ability ----- so I think a lot depends on the player(s) as to how the smaller field impacts them. I moved my son up to avoid the shorter distances and to make his summer team emulate high school play. My son started playing 60/90 at age 11. While my son was probably considered an impact player as a freshman in high school there were other players that avoided the 54/80 at an early age. I think we as a society tend to "ease" our children into too many things for fear of failure. I think challenges are good. I say "sink or swim"!
Fungo

Going, going Gone;

where is Michigan do you live? I attended Adrian schools and Michigan State.

When we play the State '14 and under teams in Australia, we play on the smaller distances.

We have never experience any unusual problems. "It is a game and players learn to adjust".Last year we sent an entire team of 13-14 year olds from the MLB Urban Academy and this team coached by Carl Nichols [former MLB Player] won 10 of the 12 games.

The smaller distances may help players to continue to play and enjoy the game until they grow into their body size. This is called the "greatest good for the greater number".

Maybe you can research the "drop off" of players who do not continue to play after age 12 and 13.

My best reason is the "quickness" achieved by runners, pitchers and infielders because of the shorter distances. "Speed has no slumps".

Bob Williams

While my son had very sound fundamentals at a young age he was also very small. In our area of the country players move from 50/70 @ 12U to 60/90 when they are 13 years of age. He was 5'4" & 125/lb when he was 13 playing mif on a very good 14U team. He was fine when he played 2b but when he was moved to SS he had trouble making the throw for the first half of the season. At the midway point most all of the players had developed enough arm strength to make the routine plays and hit the ball into the gap for doubles & triples. IMO, all players should play on the 60/90 field ASAP to help with their skill development.

Bob Williams,

We are in the Lansing area.

I think posters here may be missing the purpose of the quote. I would like to say that there is NO question about the talent on the team. They are all very good and they will certainly play a much slower game against weaker competition when they do play high school ball. I don't mean to bash high school players. It's just high school teams are not built like travel teams are.

My question was simply... which will prepare them for high school ball, 54/80 (game at higher speeds) of 60/90 (game at actual size).

quote:

Remember one old thread we discussed before? the average 14-15 year old picther only throw mid-60 to low 70s. It's very rare to see 14-15 year old throw over 80 even in the USSSA Majors team. 60' mound is definitely an advantage to the batters.

Kbat,

Not sure if it's rare at USSSA Major, but here is every pitchers velocity from our 14U and 15U WWBA Tournament this past summer. I've deleted the names in order to keep the information confidential.

Also remember that many of the very best 14 and 15 year olds are playing on 16U or 17U teams.

These are from the WWBA tournaments in Marietta Georgia this past July. Everything full field and wood bat. Not sure what the average was for these two events, but it looks like about 160 pitchers threw at least 80 or better and only 22 threw below 70.

Total 675 pitchers
Fastball
90 mph
89 mph
89 mph
88 mph
88 mph
88 mph
87 mph
87 mph
87 mph
87 mph
86 mph
86 mph
86 mph
86 mph
86 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
85 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
84 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
83 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
82 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
81 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
80 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
79 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
78 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
77 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
76 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
75 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
74 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
73 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
72 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
71 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
70 mph
69 mph
69 mph
69 mph
69 mph
69 mph
68 mph
68 mph
68 mph
68 mph
68 mph
67 mph
67 mph
67 mph
67 mph
66 mph
66 mph
66 mph
66 mph
66 mph
65 mph
65 mph
64 mph
64 mph
63 mph
63 mph

PG - I'm actually a little surprised at the number of pitchers below about 84 from a WWBA tournament. I thought it would be far less.

BTW, Kevin Eichorn was 80-82 as a 14-year old playing on an 80-ft diamond at our local park...in late HS he was 90+ and signed a nice bonus with the Dbacks this past summer. His dad (former MLBer) didn't seem a bit fazed with his son on the smaller diamond. His quick actions in the infield were fun to watch and you could see special stuff written all over him at that age on any diamond.

There are quite a few other examples I could give with names you'd surely recognize, but that would be boring to most.

I do believe that high-velocity 14-year old pitchers should play 'up' with older kids and play on 90 ft. fields. My own sons have done a mixture of both. But I was thinking we're talking about regular pre-HS and HS kids and I don't think they benefit on bigger fields. Its a slower game and I don't see how that helps someone playing with the normal ranges of abilities for a future HS player.

If we're talking about 14s most likely to be at a WWBA national-level tournament next summer...then yes, they should be on 90 ft. fields.

kbat,

I realize that those young pitchers are not the norm. Some are among the very best in the country at their age bracket.

However, I've always had a problem when we discuss averages. How can we get the averages for any age grouping? How would anyone knopw what all the 14 and 15 year olds are throwing? One thing we do think... the averages in California, Texas, Florida, Georgia, etc. are higher than the averages in Montana, Alaska, Wyoming, Maine, etc.

Regarding field size... Suppose those who can play at the regulation distances... Should! those who can't... Shouldn't. I really can't see any advantage in playing at the shorter distances at age 14 and above, if capable of playing at the full distance. Not saying it's no good, just unnecessary.

My experience is 6 years old now, but I don't think things have changed much.

We started out with a team moving up from 12u to 13u in the fall. The team had been playing 50/70 for two years by then, with leading and stealing in effect.

We initially assumed we would need to play 54/80 for a while, until our guys could handle the jump to 60/90. But we rapidly discovered there were no tournaments in our area at 54/80 and no one willing to play us at those dimensions. There were no fields set to that distance, either.

So we bit the bullet and moved up to 60/90 immediately. Within 2 weeks, the players had adjusted, making us wonder why we'd ever even worried about it.

That may have been a pretty good team, as it was stocked with players who are now all over the college ranks. But our opponents did the same thing at that time, and while some of them were also loaded, others were not.

All of which leads me to say that in my experience, I would suggest you play on a local HS field at the standard dimensions and let your players grow into it. From that point on, their improvement will be marked by how they speed up their game, not just lengthening their throws.

Also FWIW, the youngest I've ever seen anyone hit 90+ is 15, though I've seen some 88's at age 14. Those players were drafted when they graduated high school (though not all of them chose to sign, several are at college now). One of them even had Tommy John at age 16, but recovered in time to get drafted, decline that offer, and head off to UCLA this year. Meaning, those guys are rare breeds.

As for being surprised at sub-84 velocities at WWBA tourneys, remember, not every pitcher is a high MPH guy. There are still future Jamie Moyers out there. Some of them are indeed quite talented. I think there was a no hitter at Jupiter by one of them last weekend, in fact. Meanwhile the hardest thrower at Jupiter got wild and got beat!

Speed is great, I'd rather have it in my arsenal than not, but it will never be all that there is to pitching.

Finally, as to average speeds, it's a question you can't really answer. Do you want the average speed of all fastballs thrown in a game? Or the average speed of all guys out there who consider themselves pitchers at least in part? Because it's a fact that those who throw harder handle more of a team's innings. Then, do you average the guys' best ever recorded speeds? Or their cruising speeds? Everyone always tells you the hardest they ever threw, but on any given day they'll top out 2-3 mph below that, and cruise 4-6 below. So a guy who hits 90 once in a great while will typically throw in the 84-85 range, with an occasional 87-88, and a very rare 90. Which number do you want to average with others' speeds?