I think my son is nuts - what do you all say?

I would have him working on arm strength, velocity, command and a quality off speed pitch. All he has to do is get in the 80s, hit spots and change speeds. My son's high school team had a pitcher who threw 85-87 who sat behind an 82 mph pitcher. The harder thrower threw BP in games. The slower pitcher hit spots. This dilemma is all your fault for marrying a five foot woman.

My son is a 2015....young, still 16...and 5'10, 150.  Hasn't pitched more than a couple innings in HS due to them needing him at SS...but has thrown some in the summer.  He was throwing upper 70's this summer on his travel team...and hadn't thrown a baseball from a mound since late July until he went to a showcase camp 3 weeks ago and threw 84.  Threw 85 this past weekend and has drawn attention of a couple real good D1's.  I guess my point is, that if your son is thinking about completely changing his pitching just because he thinks that he won't catch those guys...that maybe he should reconsider.  Also, velocity in HS doesn't mean a lot.  Good control and decent offspeed will get him by with no problem.  Things change fast at that age...sometimes in a matter of months.  I've seen kids throwing upper 70's as freshmen....who are throwing 81 as seniors.  .

That being said....with regard to the other 3 you mentioned....a sophomore and 2 freshman throwing 80+.  According to who??  You must be at a pretty good baseball school to have that kind of talent in the lower grades....or maybe they're not really throwing that hard....lol

A few thoughts:

I do not think your son is nuts, but it might be still a little too early to make this adjustment, especially if he can already get outs with his current style. Also, being a HS closer might not mix well with reality - games are too unpredictable and the odds of there being a lot of closing opportunities are probably low. 

Developing an effective sidearm or submarine repertoire can be valuable asset, especially if you feel that you might hit the wall velocity-wise. (I rarely hear people talk about a "crafty righty").

Based on what I have seen this year, colleges are interested in sidearm/submarine pitchers. They typically might be bullpens guys, but the good ones get plenty of opportunities to pitch.

Good luck to you son

Bum, Jr. went to a Perfect Game showcase at 16 and threw 79.  He went just over a year later and clocked 88.  He's 5'9".  Things do change quickly between 16 and 18 and your son still has a shot at college and beyond but I doubt it as a side-armer.

BTW, Bum Jr's pro teammate Dominic Leone is a 5'10" RHP who threw mid-upper 80's in college and now has jumped to 96-97.  He just received an invite to play with the big boys at spring training.  Something to think about.

Agree with RJM.  Your son's idea isn't crazy and I know of plenty of HS and college coaches that like having that different look as one of their options.  But your son is a freshman and likely has some exciting growth and development still in front of him.  So, focus on the basics - mechanics and all the things RJM pointed out.  Does he see himself as a P only?

I'm a big believer in listening to your body. I'm guessing that most side-arm guys throw that way because it feels natural (I only know one).  I would be concerned about arm injury if your son tried to make such a dramatic change.

Can he play the field for the high school team, but continue to work on pitching with his club team?

If you can believe it her parents are 5'10 and 6'1. I think there was a mailman involved somewhere.

genetics are strange sometimes, im 5'10, wife is 5'4 and my 15 YO is 5-11 with size 14 feet and 11 hands. have to go way back into our family genes to find size like that. not to mention the curly hair which we don't have, mother in law family is from Angola about 3 generations ago and a swear he has those genes.

I don't think your son is nuts, but I also don't think it's time to make this move.  There are submarine guys who play at the college level, but from all the teams I have seen, they carry around 16 pitchers and only one of them is a sidearm guy.  And you have to be REALLY good at it to be effective at the college + level.  Submarine guys get TONS of movement if they keep the ball down, but it is served on a platter if left up at all.  

My son's pitching coach for many years was a submariner in the MLB.  But he didn't switch to submarine until he was in the minors.  He was already throwing around 90 and that velocity transferred to the submarine slot.  The concern I have is that by switching to submarine now, it will stunt his ability to gain velocity.  Have him throw his regular slot and work on gaining velocity.  Others are right, he could have huge growth spurts between now and his senior year.  He could have huge jumps in velocity.  If they are enough to be effective with his current slot, great.  If he wants to change to submarine once his velocity is up, he still has that option.  

The two freshmen were my son's summer teammates. Speeds are from guns at tourneys over the summer. The sophomore I haven't seen on a gun, but the velocity is pretty obvious.  The upper class is fairly weak, but in a few years I expect the school to have a really good team. With that being said, those are 3 big boys.  I don't know if they have peaked or not.

What else?

He pretty much sees himself as a pitcher.  He's a good catcher, but doesn't want to do both. He's adequate in most other positions, but not a standout.  When he puts time into it he is a pretty good hitter.

As for the injury issue...  He has played around with throwing sidearm since he was little.  It's a concern, but he's got enough sense to stop if it is causing any pain.

Most of the thoughts that have been posted are in line with what I believe. I think ultimately I'll provide my thoughts, but leave the decision up to him. 

....not sure I'd leave any important decisions to a freshman in HS....lol.  After fighting me about almost everything the past 10 years, the fact that couple D1's have shown some interest in him finally has my son starting to listen to me without arguing....it's a nice change of pace from the past 3 or 4 years. 

 I agree with buckeye on not leaving important decisions up to a Freshman. I do know that velocity is what get's the most attention, but the number one thing I want to know when I'm recruiting a pitcher is..CAN HE GET GUYS OUT.

He's still young. Make him a deal. Get a good pitching coach in your area and give it a yr. if no improvement by then he can look into changing to sub pitcher. HS team will need more than 2-3 pitchers, esp if they get into state tourn. Velocity is very import. But not the only thing needed for success. 

Here's a bizarre one for you. A friend was 6'2", 190 in high school. His parents were about 5'8" and 5'2". His brother was 5'7", 220 in high school. The brother fit the family norm. But the 5'3" mother had a 5'10" sister. Back to back generations of anomolies. The aunt was taller than both of the grandparents.

When my son played in the ACC just about every team had a submarine pitcher.  The bullpen ace on my son's team was a submariner.  The thinking was that a sidearmer's pitches will be flat, but a submarine pitcher will have up and down movement.  Generally speaking submariners are relief pitchers that don't go through the lineup more then once.  The submarine ace on my son's team could hit 82-83 with his submarine fastball.  He was a JC transfer that showed he could get college pitchers out in summer league.

Yes, your son is nuts.  (And I mean that in the nicest way possible!)

A 5'8" freshman who throws in the 70's is right on track with respect to both height and velocity. 

Nearly everybody grows at least a little bit in high school, and everybody who works at it can significantly improve his pitching velocity and skill.

If he wanted to become a submarine guy because he has been fooling around with that delivery and wants to devote himself to commanding the movements that are possible from underneath--that would not be crazy.  That would be just fine.

But to decide before his freshman tryout that he won't grow, won't add velocity, and won't improve enough as a conventional pitcher--well, that would be nuts.  

I'm 5' 10" and my wife is 5' 10" but my 13yo son is 6' 3" with a size 15 shoe. However, my wife's father is 6' 10" so you never know what genes are going to dominate. You definitely get 50% from Mom and 50% from Dad, but the makeup of that 50% can be any combination of the grandparents.

I don't like the idea.  Here is why.  I did exactly this in HS many many moons ago.  I could make the ball run sidearm.  I had close to the same speed.  It was gimmick.  I played OF in HS and when coach wanted to see me throw some BP, he didn't know I was a pitcher, I tried to impress him with the sidearm stuff.  When I went to college and stepped on the rubber messing around, I popped it a few times overhand.  I had lost sight of the fact that that was my natural arm slot and I got better with time.  JMHO!

Edited to add that I'm 5'9".

Danny (Farquhar http://seattle.mariners.mlb.co..._id=543144#gameType='R'&sectionType=career&statType=2&season=2014&level='ALL') was a nutty (max) 88 mph RHP as a HS Jr.in 2004. I saw him in high A in 2009 hitting 98-99. He is still 5-9 and is now the Seattle Mariner's closer, cruising at 94-95. Not saying that will happen, just that it can happen, if he's a freak athlete.

He threw both sidearm and 3/4 until it confused his coaches and himself. He now is 100% 3/4 arm slot.

The JUCO my son plays for has a submarine pitcher.  Last year he never started a game - he only came in to relieve and usually was a closer.

The best game I remember he took the mound in the bottom of the 9th (away game) with two outs with a 1 run lead.  The starter had gone 8 2/3 innings but the opposing team was starting to get to him - gave up two hits in the 9th after 2 quick outs.  The submarine pitcher came in and threw one pitch which the batter hit into a routine ground ball to 2nd for the final out.  He probably threw 20 or pitches warming up and then another 8 warming up on the mound. 

Some really good points on this thread, including the picture of the mailman—Hahaha!

My son throws sidearm at a NAIA college.  He’s a natural sidearm thrower and has wanted to pitch that way since little league. 

I’ve always pressed him to throw overhand (¾ and try develop that arm-slot and later, if the overhand didn’t work (defined has HS Varsity/College Scholarship), he could drop to his natural sidearm.  In HS, he started a few games but was mostly a closer.  His junior year, he decided to pitch sidearm and was very efficient—no interest.  As a senior (’13), I convinced him to pitch overhand, and he was still efficient (no college interest).

The college he tried out for, recruited him after watching him pitch overhand.  However, after watching him throw some sidearm in the BP, the coach hasn’t let him throw overhand again.  Know what, he’s pretty dang happy with that.  I read a previous post that a sidearm/submariner has to be “REALLY” good and that’s a fact.  The boy has been pitching sidearm a while and can hit his spots.  When he doesn’t, he pays.  Good thing mistakes are less frequent.

To sum it, I think you son is dropping too soon.  He needs to develop overhand and have the patience to reach his potential (overhand velocity).  Most D1/Pro submariners started out had overhand pitchers, dropping the arm-slot as a last resort to stay in the game.

Good luck!

Swamp,

That's pretty much the conversation we had...

He's played around with throwing sidearm for years, but never really pursued it because up until the last year he was spending more time as a catcher than a pitcher.

I'll give him credit for at least analyzing the situation and coming up with a way to make himself stand out from the pack.  I don't really agree with doing the switch, but at least he was trying to apply logic.

From what he has said, it looks like he has put the idea on the back burner for now.  He's going to see how the spring goes and maybe revisit the whole idea after the season before summer ball starts up. 

Here's what I've seen personally in the last year.

Kid was a good player (2B) and relief pitcher (RHP over the top) average velocity. Probably a D2/D3 prospect as a position player or pitcher.

Between his sophomore and junior season he switched to a sidearm delivery. He became a starting pitcher on his high school team, legion team and then pitched showcase in the fall. Probably sets in the low 80's and tops out around 84. His delivery is quick and aggressive for a sidearmer so he gives a different look.

To be honest, I've seen him have some very good outings, and I've seen some really bad outings. Apparently, he had some very good relief appearances in a large showcase tournament in the fall. He has committed to a good school that is a D1 program with very nice facilities.

Next kid is a sidearmer with a little more velocity. Mid 80's velocity but can pitch. Finds a way to win, has a good breaking ball. He is committed to a D1 and was recruited as a change of pace middle reliever.

Also had a chance to see Coastal Carolina once this season. As the game was heading into the last inning, I saw a sidearmer warming up in the bullpen. Brought it low and threw sloooowwww, or at least it seemed that way. They brought him in as a closer. Seemed like he released it low and it floated up. Batters were all early and went down swinging to end the game.

Some good input here and no real need to repeat it.

I do want to make sure the OP does understand that many college coaches jump at the chance to get an effective side-armer on staff. 

That being said, those guys are usually in bullpen roles, often limited to matchup work (could be just 1-2 batters per outing). 

And in most cases, the pitchers converted much later on than where your son is now.

For now, it's too early to panic or make any drastic changes.  I agree with those above who suggest he allow nature to take its course for a few more years yet.

I saw a 10 year old convert to an extreme sidearm/submarine style motion and thought it was insane because the dad and coach wanted to do something different because he didn't throw as hard as some of the other 10 year olds. I think the basis for declaring this insane applies here because there's still a ton of development to take place. Personally, I would look at going to that delivery as a last ditch effort to keep playing, much like some older guys go to the knuckleball. If he has a couple of other teammates who throw at much higher velocities I would want him to learn how to pitch and locate. That would be a nice compliment within the rotation. 

Ten?  To me that's putting winning ahead of development at way too early an age.

A 10-year-old needs to learn proper throwing, period.

When I was twelve in LL I threw submarine. But it was an infrequently used change of motion to fool good hitters. At that age Ted Abernathy was in the majors. We emulated players in pick up games. When my LL coach saw me do it in practice he suggested it might freeze hitters. I only used it on the one or two hitters in a game I couldn't smoke.

My semi-relatable story

My son is a 2014, he is 5 11 165 after a big meal; missed most of 2 years with arm troubles, one year was recovering from Tommy John.  He was a low 3/4 before surgery but after surgery he dropped down to a more of a side arm slot.  Prior to surgery he was an 79-80 guy. 

Now when he started to throw after TJ I was not a fan of the lower arm slot; I thought he was trying to be different so he could get on the mound.  However, few if any kid has worked as hard as my son to make his dream of playing college baseball a reality. I many times told him he was a little crazy and quite honestly tried to talk him out of pursuing baseball to the extent he has.  We have, however, supported him and gave him all that he wanted to make this happen. Moral of the story he recently committed to pitch for a Big 10 University and now throws mid to high 80s and expects to reach 90+ by Spring/Summer.  If you would have told me ~3 years ago  when he hurt his arm that he would be where he is today I probably would have laughed.

Not sure how this relates to your son but it is an example of it can work.  My son had multiple offers as a relief guy.  Someone said it would only get you an inning or two, maybe just a out, but he can do it everyday.  All the best to your son!

I had a kid who threw sidearm on my team for a couple of years (12 and 13yo years). He threw high sixties and was very effective. More so than plenty of guys who threw faster. Of course, he was also one of the few kids I've seen who could throw a proper knuckleball as well. He kept that knuckler in the high sixties, as well. His dad was also a sidearmer who threw for a while in the Mexican majors and still dominates twenty somethings as a 50yo pitcher in adult leagues. He also had an older brother who threw sidearm and dominated as a starting pitcher at his high school last year as a freshman. the brother is 5' 8" / 150 and struck out 102 in 46 innings with an era of just under 1.00 (a stat I trust because he only gave up 4 unearned runs). Point is the boys were taught by their dad to pitch both sidearm and to throw a knuckler.

"Someone said it would only get you an inning or two, maybe just a out, but he can do it everyday."

My point was not to insult anyone who embraces this role, but just to make sure people realized what role they were aiming for.  I don't know of any submariners who are weekend starters, so if that's your dream, this isn't the route.  On the other hand, some of these bullpen role guys end up with big fat paychecks in MLB.  Kent Tekulve, Dan Quisenberry, Ron Garber, Cla Meredith and others have made a pretty good go of it.  If converting helps you reach your dream, then by all means embrace it.

This post is outstanding.  This is about what we are about here at the hsbbweb.

I agree with Midlo Dad.  There are no side-arming/knuckle-scraping starters at the higher levels of baseball but there are a number of successful relievers including the big leagues.  Coastal Carolina had two drop-down All-Americans the last couple of years, for example, and there are many SEC programs that use them as well.  

Parents, don't worry about what you see today.  Encourage them to have fun and compete.  They can figure out on their own if they need to change their style and that can be based upon their own ambition - not yours.