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Ian Kennedy get 20th win

Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
Ian Kennedy, of the AZ D-backs won his 20th game last night in front of the home crowd. This is very special for this young man who unfortunately is not being given credit by the pundits for his contributions to a first place team. Additionally, he does not seem to be seriously considered as a viable Cy Young candidate behind Halladay or Kershaw.

No doubt Cy Young award arguments can be made for Halladay and Kershaw. Yet, the Phillies have a tremendous pitching staff and have put together a tremendous combined winning season along with an amazing offense have made them the favorite for winning the world series. The Dodgers are barely at .500 and have been in and out of last place. They even have in Matt Kemp the leading contender for National League MVP and along with Andre Ethier, who has had a 30 game winning streak this season have had not been able to get their team into first place for any length of time.

However, individual accomplishments aside, baseball is still a team sport and collectively they win or lose games as a team. Yet, it would seem logical to consider the importance of the individual pitcher to the overall success of his team and whether if he were absent would his team be as successful without him.

Halladay has had a tremendous season...no hitter, wins, competitiveness, professionalism and downright dirty stuff. Kershaw has had an excellent season as well...the consummate 'crafty lefty', he has no doubt kept his team from occupying the basement of the National League West Division. He has been practically unstoppable and has caused fits for many MLB hitters all season.

Even if Halladay had an off season and won only 12 to 15 games his team would still be in first, which they occupy by a cool 12 games and hold the best overall record in all of MLB baseball. Although, it would be inaccurate to underestimate his contribution to the Phillies, the fact remains his team has incredible overall hitting and pitching ability that has been second to none in MLB this season.

Kershaw has suffered the opposite as Halladay, although the Dodgers have an abundance of MLB talent such as Kemp and Ethier. One can point to the off-field issue regarding their ownership as a contributing factor in their under-performance. Yet, as good as Kershaw has been his team is out of contention.

This brings me to Kennedy. According to the ‘experts’ the D-backs were predicted to maybe be playing .500 ball and would certainly and absolutely would not win the National League West Division. Well, okay they technically haven't won the division, but being 5.5. games ahead of the SF Giants, which are only 4 games from elimination. So then I would say unless the D-backs go on a tremendous losing streak with 9 games left to be played then the West Division would seem to be theirs for the losing. Stranger things have happened.

Certainly a young pitcher acquired in a trade last year was not predicted by the 'experts' to win 20 games and lead his team to first place. Kennedy's stuff has been exceptional considering his team has often struggled with scoring runs something that can't be said for the Phillies that have had many high scoring games. If Kennedy would have had an off year his team would not be in first place. End of story. His arm and performance has made a difference in the overall success of his team. If he would have only won 10 or 12 games this year his team would be in third or lower place and the Giants would recapture the division for the second year in a row.

His stats are as comparable to Halladay and Kershaw, but the significant difference is what he has meant to his team and what would the outcome have been if he were not there or if someone else were there in his stead.

So folks, I welcome your thoughts...
Last edited {1}
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zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
Problem is Kennedy couldn't hack it in NY, had a bit of an attitude problem and the American League tore him up. That's most likely what's dogging him. By going to the NL, the offense not nearly as tough to deal with than the NL. I just don't think he's convinced enough people based on his meltdown in NY. Maybe if he continues to dominate in the NL for years to come, he'll earn back some of that respect he lost as a Yankee. In these parts, many think he simply went to an easier league and playing in a far less pressure situation in Arizona.

Pitchers like Halladay have already proved they can pitch anywhere and beat the best in the business. There's no way I put Ian Kennedy anywhere near Halladay in any competitiuon for a Cy Young award. That's just the way it is.
Last edited by zombywoof
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Coach,

I agree with most everything you have said.

Only thing... Not sure I would describe Kershaw as a "crafty" lefty. When I think of crafty lefties, I think of Jamie Moyer types, rather than those who throw mid 90s with plus life. Then again maybe you are referring to his curve ball when describing him as crafty.

Also, not sure what the Dodgers record this year have to do with Kershaw and the Cy Young. Obviously they're not a .500 team when he is involved in the games. It's the best pitcher, not the best team.

That said, what Ian Kennedy has done for the D'Backs this year is absolutely amazing. It would be hard to argue against, if he got the Cy Young.
M Marklaker1,000+ posts
While this doesn't detract from your argument regarding Kennedy's merit, I do have two quibbles:

1) Kershaw can run his FB to the plate at 94-95 and throw it past hitters.

2) Having watched the Dodgers all year an "abundance of MLB talent" is more than a stretch. When you employ two utility players in your infield for the entire season, work a LF platoon that can't see above the Mendoza Line, a catching platoon with just slightly more clearance, and a pitching staff with dual lodging in Albuquerque and Chattanooga, well.....
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
Z-Wolf,

He's now only 26, guess a place like NY would be a bit rough, but we're talking about the NL Cy Young here. Isn't the Cy Young award for the current year and not what someone has done for years?

You're right about being on the west coast. Games here start late for those of you in the east and maybe you're all in bed as our games are being played and haven't seen what he can do unless he's playing out there.

It's obvious there is lots of east coast bias based upon exposure.

If Halladay would not have been on the Phillies, I'm fairly positive they still would have won their division. One can't say that about Kennedy and the D-backs...

PG,

Well, I guess 'crafty' wouldn't have been the right term for a guy who can throw a fastball in the 90's, but the curve he throws is certainly 'crafty'.

As far as the position of the team in the standings is concerned, I think being an integral part of getting your team to the head of the division is essential when considering the Cy Young award. If I'm not mistaken that a pitcher receives 'bonus points' if he leads his team to the divisional championship. That was my only point there...i.e. take Kennedy out of the equation and the D-backs are not in first.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
By going to the NL, the offense not nearly as tough to deal with than the NL.


Is there a stat somewhere, like Batting Average Against, that gives average BA (against all pitchers, not just this pitcher) of hitters faced by this pitcher?. This would represent the quality of the hitters faced. Then you could compare this number to the BAA.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Coach,

I agree with most everything you have said.

Only thing... Not sure I would describe Kershaw as a "crafty" lefty. When I think of crafty lefties, I think of Jamie Moyer types, rather than those who throw mid 90s with plus life. Then again maybe you are referring to his curve ball when describing him as crafty.

Also, not sure what the Dodgers record this year have to do with Kershaw and the Cy Young. Obviously they're not a .500 team when he is involved in the games. It's the best pitcher, not the best team.

That said, what Ian Kennedy has done for the D'Backs this year is absolutely amazing. It would be hard to argue against, if he got the Cy Young.


Coach,

I was going to respond to your OP, but I scrolled down and read PG's post. So my response is...What He Said. Big Grin Nothing against Kennedy, I'm very happy for him, he's a So Cal guy...but IMO Kershaw is having one of those special season's on the mound contending for the Triple Crown of Pitching...Wins, ERA, and K's, and doing it on a terrible Dodgers team...And on the flip side Roy Halladay is, well he's Roy Halladay!
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Marklaker:
While this doesn't detract from your argument regarding Kennedy's merit, I do have two quibbles:

1) Kershaw can run his FB to the plate at 94-95 and throw it past hitters.

2) Having watched the Dodgers all year an "abundance of MLB talent" is more than a stretch. When you employ two utility players in your infield for the entire season, work a LF platoon that can't see above the Mendoza Line, a catching platoon with just slightly more clearance, and a pitching staff with dual lodging in Albuquerque and Chattanooga, well.....


Let me address your second point which I think is unfair to the Dodger players...

Other than Velez who is used primarily for pinch running, I think Gwynn, Oeltjen, Rivera and Sands are very good OF ball players.

Gwynn has had the most at bats of the LF's at 310 and is batting .258 with 12 doubles and 6 triples. Not too shabby. Oeltjen has had only 64 AB's this year, but has provided some timely hits. Rivera is batting .264 with 23 doubles, 10 homers and an admirable job filling in for Ethier. He is no Ethier, but he's not bad. Sands is a good callup and has a big upside and needs to get his AB's to develop further.

The catching staff is not bad either. Barajas has always been a favorite of mine since he played on the D-back 2001 World Series team. He is an awesome veteran catcher who still has significant power with 13 doubles and 15 homers this season. Having a veteran catcher for up and coming pitchers is essential as well as for rising catchers like Ellis. I can't see what's wrong with them.

As far as the pitching staff is concerned the Dodgers have had some pitchers have off years like the veteran Lilly who has one heck of a good career, but seems to be falling off now. Kuroda has had a disappointing year, but his ERA is better than it ever has been at 3.19, which is dang good...he just has not had the run support to get the W's. Billingsly has had a decent year even though this year's ERA is bloated over 4. Even Guerrier has had a fairly good year. How about the young closer with an ERA of 2.19 and 18 saves in 19 save opportunities? I'd say he has done a very good job. Of course there is Kershaw...what more needs to be said of his fantastic year? The Dodgers biggest issue has been the 5th starter. Yes, this could have been better, but other teams have had the same problem and overcome it.

There really shouldn't be any excuse for the Dodgers to not have had a good year.

Now, let's compare them to the D-backs. The 5 starting pitchers are all young guys with 2 of the starters always being rookies and one veteran age 30. And yes, a 5th starter is always uncertain, but usually a rookie callup. The set up guy, Hernandez and the closer Putz have been very good.

The D-back IF are all made up of seasoned veteran throwoffs except the 24 year old rookie who has now settled in at 1B. There is only one player in this IF who started on opening day and now he is platooning in and out. There are no big name stars in this IF other than SS Steven Drew who turned his foot in the wrong direction on a slide at home ending his season a couple of months ago. The IF veterans have stepped up their efforts and have had good results.

The D-back catchers are average, but have had a big impact throughout the season, particularly with their bats. Montero is a good hitter, but his defense is below average at best.

The only real constant in the field has been the OF. In RF Justin Upton has come into his own, but if opposing pitchers don’t stop hitting him they may find this very fast large man upon them in a big hurry. I suppose after clinching the division this may occur, but I would hate to see it affect the off-season with a suspension.

The D-backs have had injuries like other teams, but have found very adequate replacements. The new GM Kevin Towers has been a genius in my book. He has to be the GM of the year for what he has done for the D-backs. The manager, Kirk Gibson has performed miracles with a team that was in last place last year.

Okay, enough of my rants...sorry folks
Three BaggerThree Bagger1,000+ posts
Perception often doesn't match the truth unless one checks the numbers. While it SEEMS the Phils are a high scoring club and the Diamond backs often struggle for runs, that is not true at all as the Diamondbacks have out scored the Phils 683 to 676 while out homering them 168 to 146, out extrabase hitting them 476 to 428 and having a higher OPS at .733 to .720. So truthfully its Halladay and Lee who have had less runs scored for them than Kennedy. Kennedy has pitched well though and should at least be mentioned in the Cy Young race more than he has but as others stated, his numbers in some of the important stat catagories don't quite measure up to Kershaw, Lee or Halliday. Still a great season for the young man.
Three BaggerThree Bagger1,000+ posts
Sultan,
While I don't know where the exact type of stat you asked about exists, there is no doubt Kennedy does not face NEAR the lineups he faced in the AL East and the AL overall with the DH. Among the teams the Diamondbacks face the most are the 22nd, 28th, and 29th teams in runs scored in the Majors out of 30 teams, those being the Dodgers, Giants and Padres. The lineups in the NL are not full of deep count batters like the Yankees and Red Sox that wear starting pitchers out.
M Marklaker1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
quote:
Originally posted by Marklaker:
While this doesn't detract from your argument regarding Kennedy's merit, I do have two quibbles:

1) Kershaw can run his FB to the plate at 94-95 and throw it past hitters.

2) Having watched the Dodgers all year an "abundance of MLB talent" is more than a stretch. When you employ two utility players in your infield for the entire season, work a LF platoon that can't see above the Mendoza Line, a catching platoon with just slightly more clearance, and a pitching staff with dual lodging in Albuquerque and Chattanooga, well.....


Let me address your second point which I think is unfair to the Dodger players...

Other than Velez who is used primarily for pinch running, I think Gwynn, Oeltjen, Rivera and Sands are very good OF ball players.

Gwynn has had the most at bats of the LF's at 310 and is batting .258 with 12 doubles and 6 triples. Not too shabby. Oeltjen has had only 64 AB's this year, but has provided some timely hits. Rivera is batting .264 with 23 doubles, 10 homers and an admirable job filling in for Ethier. He is no Ethier, but he's not bad. Sands is a good callup and has a big upside and needs to get his AB's to develop further.

The catching staff is not bad either. Barajas has always been a favorite of mine since he played on the D-back 2001 World Series team. He is an awesome veteran catcher who still has significant power with 13 doubles and 15 homers this season. Having a veteran catcher for up and coming pitchers is essential as well as for rising catchers like Ellis. I can't see what's wrong with them.

As far as the pitching staff is concerned the Dodgers have had some pitchers have off years like the veteran Lilly who has one heck of a good career, but seems to be falling off now. Kuroda has had a disappointing year, but his ERA is better than it ever has been at 3.19, which is dang good...he just has not had the run support to get the W's. Billingsly has had a decent year even though this year's ERA is bloated over 4. Even Guerrier has had a fairly good year. How about the young closer with an ERA of 2.19 and 18 saves in 19 save opportunities? I'd say he has done a very good job. Of course there is Kershaw...what more needs to be said of his fantastic year? The Dodgers biggest issue has been the 5th starter. Yes, this could have been better, but other teams have had the same problem and overcome it.

There really shouldn't be any excuse for the Dodgers to not have had a good year.

Now, let's compare them to the D-backs. The 5 starting pitchers are all young guys with 2 of the starters always being rookies and one veteran age 30. And yes, a 5th starter is always uncertain, but usually a rookie callup. The set up guy, Hernandez and the closer Putz have been very good.

The D-back IF are all made up of seasoned veteran throwoffs except the 24 year old rookie who has now settled in at 1B. There is only one player in this IF who started on opening day and now he is platooning in and out. There are no big name stars in this IF other than SS Steven Drew who turned his foot in the wrong direction on a slide at home ending his season a couple of months ago. The IF veterans have stepped up their efforts and have had good results.

The D-back catchers are average, but have had a big impact throughout the season, particularly with their bats. Montero is a good hitter, but his defense is below average at best.

The only real constant in the field has been the OF. In RF Justin Upton has come into his own, but if opposing pitchers don’t stop hitting him they may find this very fast large man upon them in a big hurry. I suppose after clinching the division this may occur, but I would hate to see it affect the off-season with a suspension.

The D-backs have had injuries like other teams, but have found very adequate replacements. The new GM Kevin Towers has been a genius in my book. He has to be the GM of the year for what he has done for the D-backs. The manager, Kirk Gibson has performed miracles with a team that was in last place last year.

Okay, enough of my rants...sorry folks


Let's take a little closer look.....

1) "I think Gwynn, Oeltjen, Rivera and Sands are very good OF ball players."

I like Rivera (also an Angels fans) and consider him a good pick-up, but he didn't arrive on the scene until after the All-Star break, at which point the Dodgers were already in trouble. Sands has much upside, but he was below the Mendoza Line in his frist stint and didn't begin to contribute until his September call-up, at which point they were contending for the division cellar. Referring to Oeltjen as a "very good" ballplayer is a bit over the top. You say Gwynn "is not too shabby", but I should think a team with "an abundance of MLB talent" wouldn't fill a corner OF spot with a ightweight .258 hitter sporting a .355 slugging%. And let's not forget the Jay Gibbons/Marcus Thames platoon Dodger fans suffered through for the first 60 games of the season.

2) "The catching staff is not bad either. Barajas has always been a favorite of mine since he played on the D-back 2001 World Series team. He is an awesome veteran catcher who still has significant power with 13 doubles and 15 homers this season. Having a veteran catcher for up and coming pitchers is essential as well as for rising catchers like Ellis. I can't see what's wrong with them."

I like Barajas' pop and he's done a fine job handling the staff, but his .289 OBP on a team struggling to score runs might be considered problematic. You prop Ellis as a capable back-up but you're apparently unaware he was another late call-up after the team jettisoned Dioner Navarro and his .193 BA. in 64 games.

3) "How about the young closer with an ERA of 2.19 and 18 saves in 19 save opportunities? I'd say he has done a very good job."

I'm very impressed with Javy Guerra, but let's not forget Guerra is in the ML because the two studs they counted on to carry the bullpen load, Broxton and Kuo, sport 5.68 and 9.12 ERAs and spent much of the time on the DL. Throw in Troncoso and his + 5.00 ERA and you're scrmabling to fill holes with kids from Chattanooga and Albuquerque.

There are other points to be made but I've already worked myself into a funk dredging up these unpleasantries. Suffice to say there are plenty of reasons why the Dodgers aren't contending this year.
Ryanrod23Ryanrod231,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
Coach,

After reading your post above, most of us can agree on one thing...Kirk Gibson should be the Manager of the Year.


Nice post coach W. Agree 100% BSBL247. He and his coaching staff has injected some old school magic to this team. I am just happy to have "darkhorse" Kennedy being considered as a CY Young candidate. I particularly liked the 10th year celebration of the 2001 WS champs for the young pitchers to see perennial CY Young winner Randy Johnson and his partner that year Curt Schilling.

Diamondbacks maybe the surprise team of the post season if everything clicks at the right time.

It's just about timing!
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
By going to the NL, the offense not nearly as tough to deal with than the NL.


Is there a stat somewhere, like Batting Average Against, that gives average BA (against all pitchers, not just this pitcher) of hitters faced by this pitcher?. This would represent the quality of the hitters faced. Then you could compare this number to the BAA.


Without going stat crazy, the fact that the pitcher hits in the NL will change the whole landscape of a lineup compared to the DH in the AL.

Now this is no knock on Kennedy because he's surprising everyone and having a great year. Maybe by getting away from NY, going to the NL and playing for a team that don't have the pressures of NY is what he needed.

If AZ made the world series, it would be interesting to see what the difference in Kennedy is that transformed him from the scrapheap to a 20-game winner and to see how he'd match up against the American League, and especially the Yankees who have the best offense in all of baseball and over the course of the season, got pitching nobody thought they would have. While the Yankees can beat up on any top pitcher in the league, we also know Halladay can shut down a Yankee lineup on any given day. Can Kennedy do the same?
Last edited by zombywoof
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:

If AZ made the world series, it would be interesting to see what the difference in Kennedy is that transformed him from the scrapheap to a 20-game winner and to see how he'd match up against the American League, and especially the Yankees who have the best offense in all of baseball and over the course of the season, got pitching nobody thought they would have. While the Yankees can beat up on any top pitcher in the league, we also know Halladay can shut down a Yankee lineup on any given day. Can Kennedy do the same?


That's a good question about Kennedy. If the D-backs as team can get through the very tough National League divisional leaders then we can answer that question. However, the same can be said of any pitcher who is not familiar with the hitters in their league.

I'm not putting down the Yankees since they are very good offensively, but I think the Phillies may have something to say about the best offense in baseball regardless of the league. It's not a foregone conclusion that American league hitters will always best a National League pitcher.

However, if almost goes without saying if any team in any league goes into the bottom of the 9th inning behind with the Yankees and the best closer in the history of the games is on the mound, well I can almost hear Dandy Don Meredith once again singing 'Turn Out the Lights...The Party's Over'.
Ryanrod23Ryanrod231,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
However, if almost goes without saying if any team in any league goes into the bottom of the 9th inning behind with the Yankees and the best closer in the history of the games is on the mound, well I can almost hear Dandy Don Meredith once again singing 'Turn Out the Lights...The Party's Over'.


unless Luis Gonzalez gets out of retirement if it was the Dbacks. Big Grin
Coach WaltripCoach Waltrip100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Ryanrod23:
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
However, if almost goes without saying if any team in any league goes into the bottom of the 9th inning behind with the Yankees and the best closer in the history of the games is on the mound, well I can almost hear Dandy Don Meredith once again singing 'Turn Out the Lights...The Party's Over'.


unless Luis Gonzalez gets out of retirement if it was the Dbacks. Big Grin


Yes Rod, that is a moment I too will always cherish...
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
[/QUOTE]
Without going stat crazy, the fact that the pitcher hits in the NL will change the whole landscape of a lineup compared to the DH in the AL.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your above statement Zomby, but IMO, there are advantages in both leagues that can change the landscape of a lineup......

American League Pitchers: Obviously they have to face the opponents DH (except during inter-league play). However, their only job is to pitch. They don't have to hit. They rest in between each and every inning. If they're pitching in the late innings in a tight game they don't have to worry about being lifted for a pinch hitter. Mentally, there is a big advantage IMHO in the American League.

National League Pitchers: They have the advantage of facing the opponents starting pitcher. BUT the average starting pitcher usually goes 5-7 innings, therefore NL pitchers are only getting 2-3 AB's per game. Relief pitchers rarely get AB's, as Pinch Hitters are generally used. NL pitchers are required to hit. NL pitchers run the bases, and then go back on the mound and attempt to shut down their opponents (AL pitchers get to rest). Often times,NL pitchers are lifted late in the game for a PH-er and lose the opportunity to stay in the game that extra inning to get a W.

Going back to Ian Kennedy. I'm happy for him, he's had a great year for the D-Backs, but this is Clayton Kershaw's year. I hope Kershaw doesn't get penalized for being on a weak Dodgers team? He is leading the NL in Wins, ERA, SO's, BA against, and he's second in WHIP by 1/100th....Kershaw simply dominated the National League this year! This should be the easiest year to give out the Cy Young in each league with CK and Verlander.

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