[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mde5:
St.Charles..quote
What about the player who has scouts and current pro players talking the player up...telling him he has a "very bright" future ahead of him...
If you been around the buisness as long as I have ever Pro Scout says that.
Did you wonder why most Player Development Departments and Scouting Departments in affiliate ball don't get along. The scouts blow alot smoke up these kids rear ends and the development staffs tell it like it is. They don't lie, its not cost effective for the bottom line.
But I'm sure there are alot of "Can't miss kids at Schaumburg HS that Coach Groot is just "berating".
to begin with i am a friend of Steve Hartsburg so find someone else to whine about. like about half of the major bleeping leagues!!! ................We seem to have established the following 1) High School Coaches are far less likely to help your boy to the next level than most might reasonably have assumed.2) The same HS coach that is really good at getting him to that next level is also imo the coach that will guide him toward good citizenship,charachter etc.3) Travel coaches are more likely to get your boy the game exposure they need if they are legit candidates for the next level. 4) Its really unlikely that there is a higher percentage of Travel coaches that care about your boy vs HS coaches.5)Travel coaches and HS coaches are really kind of scared of each other because each has a lot at stake in the process of developing your son, or because (most likely) they just cant pick up that phone and communicate w the other guy.6)We are awfully lucky when we get the win win HS coach together with the win win Travel coach. I hate to say it but maybe it would be good for the unlucky 1's among us to identify the culprits. I'm talking AFTER every effort has been made to deal with it elsewhere. .............After being involved as a coach and parent on the HS (parent only) side w/4 boys and the Travel (coach and parent) side for over 30 years I have been on the LUCKY side for about 97.5% of the time. Unfortunately that is not going to be the case for most,so my solution for this is for every HS coach to reassess your work ethic and especially your communicative skills and call NOW to the Trav progams you want your students involved with, work out pitching rotations together and find the best spot for each kid. Travel coaches---DO THE SAME. We parents and sons/daughters will be very happy if at least some of you do. Also you parents who have limmited knowledge of the game....Be positive.help this process along, ask questions and keep calm.
Here is a question, why don't some of these travel coaches become high school coaches? If they have a such a good track record of helping kids get to the next level, maybe these are the guys we need on the HS level. If our HS coaches are not helping the kids, bring in the travel coaches who will.
For those of you who know of HS coaches who are "not" helping the kids, please reflect on "why" they don't? Is it cause they don't care, don't have the time, don't know how to?
For those of you who know of HS coaches who are "not" helping the kids, please reflect on "why" they don't? Is it cause they don't care, don't have the time, don't know how to?
I don't think the travel coaches can coach a high school varsity team unless they have a teaching certificate.
I don't know if travel coaches are the only ones who care about developing and exposing players to college coaches, just like I don't believe high school coaches do the same either.
Travel coaches do by the shear fact that the kids are traveling to tournaments and shocases that a lot of college coaches attend. Last year with Lombard, we were at no less than 5 tournaments that had a huge college attendance. Was Bill doing it for his players?...yep, for the ones who weren't already committed. I know for fact that of the 7 players who weren't committed in June, 6 had committments by the middle of July. Did they all follow Bill's advice as to where to go?...nope, but he guided them to make a decision that WAS BEST FOR THEM.
I had a nice conversation with coach Hall in AZ during the Swingtown event here. I don't doubt that he does all he can for his players. He also understands where they will be successful. He remembered my son from playing against him for 2 years and said "if there is anything I can ever do for you, calls I can make, don't hesitate to call me". He was the coach who talkd to the scouts about the player that was drafted...so there are some high school coaches doing it...just not enough. Either they don't have the time, the knowledge, the connections or the desire.
So if you are one who has a high school coach who doesn't do it, you have to find a travel program that does. It is a lot of work to get to play in college....both physically and emotionally. Players need to work for their dreams and rely on whom ever it is that can help them make those dreams reality
I don't know if travel coaches are the only ones who care about developing and exposing players to college coaches, just like I don't believe high school coaches do the same either.
Travel coaches do by the shear fact that the kids are traveling to tournaments and shocases that a lot of college coaches attend. Last year with Lombard, we were at no less than 5 tournaments that had a huge college attendance. Was Bill doing it for his players?...yep, for the ones who weren't already committed. I know for fact that of the 7 players who weren't committed in June, 6 had committments by the middle of July. Did they all follow Bill's advice as to where to go?...nope, but he guided them to make a decision that WAS BEST FOR THEM.
I had a nice conversation with coach Hall in AZ during the Swingtown event here. I don't doubt that he does all he can for his players. He also understands where they will be successful. He remembered my son from playing against him for 2 years and said "if there is anything I can ever do for you, calls I can make, don't hesitate to call me". He was the coach who talkd to the scouts about the player that was drafted...so there are some high school coaches doing it...just not enough. Either they don't have the time, the knowledge, the connections or the desire.
So if you are one who has a high school coach who doesn't do it, you have to find a travel program that does. It is a lot of work to get to play in college....both physically and emotionally. Players need to work for their dreams and rely on whom ever it is that can help them make those dreams reality
Fellas/Ladies...
Please stop posting personal things about someone you know especially if it not publicly known by anyone except you.
I have deleted several posts that do not contribute towards any substantive discussion but rather, in my opinion, defame someone. Rather than take a chance to determine the statements veracity, I choose to delete it/them.
Plenty of things to talk about that create/foster some "substantive" discussion.
We all know that I like a little controversy now and then and can "give and take" with most of you.
However, no need to be harsh and personal with someone who might have some type of problem that should be addressed by professionals/social service agencies. If, in fact, there is a problem!
Lots of what is said should be discussed in private through use of the pm.
Thanks and go Carolina!
Please stop posting personal things about someone you know especially if it not publicly known by anyone except you.
I have deleted several posts that do not contribute towards any substantive discussion but rather, in my opinion, defame someone. Rather than take a chance to determine the statements veracity, I choose to delete it/them.
Plenty of things to talk about that create/foster some "substantive" discussion.
We all know that I like a little controversy now and then and can "give and take" with most of you.
However, no need to be harsh and personal with someone who might have some type of problem that should be addressed by professionals/social service agencies. If, in fact, there is a problem!
Lots of what is said should be discussed in private through use of the pm.
Thanks and go Carolina!
What is Mr. Hartsburg doing now? Is he still a cell phone dealer? How do you get a hold of him?
Hey I'm a high school coach!
Hey I'm a high school coach!
I have been reading almost all of the post with much interest. I would like to add my thoughts, which I have developed over 20 years of coaching High School Level, Legion, and Travel the past 8 years. First, we survive together, if there was no high school baseball we would not have a good balance. Though there is a lot of High School coaches that are not like Ballfan, they don't coach for any other reason but title and/or a check. I have personally spoken with lots of High School coaches that feel like it is not their job to find the kids a school. They make excuses like they don't have time, or they don't get paid for that, etc. This is a nationwide problem, not just Midwest. But it does go for a vast majority of High School Coaches. I have to qualify that though, by saying there are also some wonderful coaches, that will do anything possible for their kids. But these coaches are 90% of the time the guys that want their kids to do whatever it takes to get better. But HS Coaches have gotten a bad rap because of the majority, and the majority of the good ones will tell you one on one this is the truth. Now to Travel Coaches, and I know hundreds or have talked with hundreds, a lot of them are no better. They are there for one purpose only, their kid! They are like the majority of HS Coaches, they don't study the game, don't truly respect the game, and don't work for the kids. They just care about two things, wins and losses and their own kid. You can usually tell a Dad Coach, they are wearing shorts, sandles, and have their shirt hanging out. No respect for the game we love. I want to be clear though, I am not making a blanket statement about all HS coaches or Travel coaches. It's just that right now the Majority of Travel coaches invest more time, money, and effort than many of the high school coaches.
Now, Facts are, no matter what a scout sitting around the table tells you; Majority of College and Professional scouts would much rather drive 2 hours to 12 hours to a large travel tournament to see players, than they would to drive long distances to see a high school baseball game, especially if a top prospect were to be at both. There are a few reasons that are evident: When you go see a top pitcher at majority of HS games, he will dominate most high schools, and will not get to really show what he can do against solid up and down the lineup talent that SOME travel teams have. A hitter that is a prospect, at the majority of High Schools is not protected in the lineup, so he may not even get a pitch to hit, or he may chase pitches pressing, knowing that noone ever throws to him or will just bean him. He will be challenged at a travel tournament. (Why do you think, the top players can't wait for HS to get over). It is a majority of time a waste to go watch players in High School, unless they play on a premier team, because of these reasons. Next, Money, Scouts at all levels are getting their budgets cut all of the time, baseball believe it or not, is not a rich sport at the College level or Professional Scout level. It makes much more sense financially to go see several players at one venue and spend the whole weekend than it does to drive all over the country to see one player in a high school game, regardless if that is what they want to do. I had my eyes opened about 6 years ago when I had a team in Alabama playing and at least 5 professional scouts, 3 major college coaches, and myself were talking and they told me there were kids opting out of HS Baseball. I said "No Way", they looked at me and each had their comments but the jest of the conversation to me was "Why wouldn't they? They can play starting in February for Travel teams and play till November for a team that was going to allow them to play the game competitively for a coach that will get them out there. They don't need to play for a High School Team for 5 months and only play possible 30 games and most against local teams." Also they told me point blank, we don't like driving to see High School games, when we can go to large tournaments and identify players." This was a synopsis of the conversation but they made me a believer. Now for those that say High Schools will never go to summer ball, they will try because they want control. I think it will be the death of really good teams. Or at least competition for the really good teams that can keep their players. Players are opting out of High School sports throughout the country in softball, basketball, s****r and baseball already. It just hasn't hit our areas yet. But, I pose this question to you. What does it mean to play for your high school now? It's not like it was when a lot of us were younger, where playing for your high school meant something. At least not in many areas. One last thing, I always hear the statement that if a player is a prospect he will be found. This is so far from the truth its funny. I could mention many that if they would have been exposed would have gotten better scholarship opportunities or would have went higher in the draft. Yes they might get found, but by who? and if drafted could they have went higher in the draft? Ask Scouts about Eric Campbell, a kid that has a good possibility to be drafted 2nd thru 5th round this year. I have spoken to many scouts that have said we knew nothing about this kid till he was out playing in the summer displaying his power. He did it for 3 years in HS, but 99% of scouts didn't know who he was. Now every team in the country knows him, due to the summer. Players don't get found if they are not exposed, they get hidden, and if a kid is a draft, he might get drafted but low. He gets out there he will definitely have a better opportunity. We need to keep it the way it is, High School in the Spring, and Travel in the Summer and Fall. It works well together. We just need to communicate better, all of us. But don't be surprised in the next 10 to 20 years if the high school teams go the way of legion baseball, for the average to below average players (of course there are still some very good legion teams. I don't want to upset some of you legion faithful. Just when your done with your World Series try playing any of the top 40 best travel teams in the country and you won't fair too well. Legion Used to be tops. Not anymore, sorry guys).
Now, Facts are, no matter what a scout sitting around the table tells you; Majority of College and Professional scouts would much rather drive 2 hours to 12 hours to a large travel tournament to see players, than they would to drive long distances to see a high school baseball game, especially if a top prospect were to be at both. There are a few reasons that are evident: When you go see a top pitcher at majority of HS games, he will dominate most high schools, and will not get to really show what he can do against solid up and down the lineup talent that SOME travel teams have. A hitter that is a prospect, at the majority of High Schools is not protected in the lineup, so he may not even get a pitch to hit, or he may chase pitches pressing, knowing that noone ever throws to him or will just bean him. He will be challenged at a travel tournament. (Why do you think, the top players can't wait for HS to get over). It is a majority of time a waste to go watch players in High School, unless they play on a premier team, because of these reasons. Next, Money, Scouts at all levels are getting their budgets cut all of the time, baseball believe it or not, is not a rich sport at the College level or Professional Scout level. It makes much more sense financially to go see several players at one venue and spend the whole weekend than it does to drive all over the country to see one player in a high school game, regardless if that is what they want to do. I had my eyes opened about 6 years ago when I had a team in Alabama playing and at least 5 professional scouts, 3 major college coaches, and myself were talking and they told me there were kids opting out of HS Baseball. I said "No Way", they looked at me and each had their comments but the jest of the conversation to me was "Why wouldn't they? They can play starting in February for Travel teams and play till November for a team that was going to allow them to play the game competitively for a coach that will get them out there. They don't need to play for a High School Team for 5 months and only play possible 30 games and most against local teams." Also they told me point blank, we don't like driving to see High School games, when we can go to large tournaments and identify players." This was a synopsis of the conversation but they made me a believer. Now for those that say High Schools will never go to summer ball, they will try because they want control. I think it will be the death of really good teams. Or at least competition for the really good teams that can keep their players. Players are opting out of High School sports throughout the country in softball, basketball, s****r and baseball already. It just hasn't hit our areas yet. But, I pose this question to you. What does it mean to play for your high school now? It's not like it was when a lot of us were younger, where playing for your high school meant something. At least not in many areas. One last thing, I always hear the statement that if a player is a prospect he will be found. This is so far from the truth its funny. I could mention many that if they would have been exposed would have gotten better scholarship opportunities or would have went higher in the draft. Yes they might get found, but by who? and if drafted could they have went higher in the draft? Ask Scouts about Eric Campbell, a kid that has a good possibility to be drafted 2nd thru 5th round this year. I have spoken to many scouts that have said we knew nothing about this kid till he was out playing in the summer displaying his power. He did it for 3 years in HS, but 99% of scouts didn't know who he was. Now every team in the country knows him, due to the summer. Players don't get found if they are not exposed, they get hidden, and if a kid is a draft, he might get drafted but low. He gets out there he will definitely have a better opportunity. We need to keep it the way it is, High School in the Spring, and Travel in the Summer and Fall. It works well together. We just need to communicate better, all of us. But don't be surprised in the next 10 to 20 years if the high school teams go the way of legion baseball, for the average to below average players (of course there are still some very good legion teams. I don't want to upset some of you legion faithful. Just when your done with your World Series try playing any of the top 40 best travel teams in the country and you won't fair too well. Legion Used to be tops. Not anymore, sorry guys).
USWBC, can't tell you how great it is that you have joined us on this board.Between Ballfan, Blazer25 and you we now have a definitive scope from which to work. (2 of the very best Travel coaches and one of the best HS coaches). Let me throw Pitchdoc in there as well. Its good to know that parents and players will have the truly experienced opinion available when they need it. Hope you will review the important topics and chime in regularly. Welcome!.................soxnole.
uswbc, I was just wondering where you coached hS ball? There is no doubt that kids get exposure playing at a well organized travel tournament. But, I think you are twisting the truth here a bit. I also have also talked to scouts that say nothing of what you are reporting. I would love to have this conversation in private because I don't think that name dropping is the right thing to do on a public forum. This is in na way an attempt to discredit you, it is an attempt to bring the truth to the people who are influenced by your comments. I have 13 letters from pro organizations that requested a schedule and a game day phone number because they are interested in seeing a particular player. You know and I know that this spring the midwest scouts will be out at high school games, just like they have been for the past 20 years, and for you to say that they won't is irresponsible. You make a blanket comment about hs basketball not being as popular. Do you not read anything but baseball. Participation in HS basketball is way up because of the likes of Garnet, Bryant, James. They couldn't have asked for a better situation. I looked at the top 100 players who signed schloarships last year. They all played basketball in HS (except the foreign born players). Heck, during one week last year, there were more espn hs games on then college. Lastly, I am confused about your comment about time issues. If you ran your program right, then you would understand all the time issues with running a successful baseball program. Scheduling games, off season weights, checking grades, talking with teachers, talking with college coaches, budjets, uniforms, and most importantly having time for the kids when they come to you with a problem that they feel comfortable and sure that they have come to the right person to talk about. Then after all that, the season starts full of practice and games. Some kids at my school don't play baseball because for you to be part of our team, you have to be accountable all day and everyday. Just my thoughts on your post. Good luck to you.
ballfan and uswbc, ok, my turn.(my kid plays HS + travel). my kid plays for a big time HS program and big time travel.this can get confusing when the sharpie meets the calendar page. i need you 2 guys to understand each other. i have been on the travel side of things for many years (4 boys worth). Simply put you are both right. the top notch HS program in a poulation center like Chicago will outdraw most travel games. the big time travel tourney (Jupiter, Marietta,Evansville) will outdraw any HS event. One of the things you might be forgetting ballfan is that uswbc was probably (just guessing ) coaching in a more rural area.In these areas travel ball would dominate the scouts time because of the #'s. You two appear to be exactly the type of coaches that need to work together in resolving travel/HS issues. in the end there is certainly a hidden truth to this general subject.that is our northern top tier of players NEED a great HS and great travel coach to help in getting the right program to recognize D1 + pro prospects.
"...the big time travel tourney (Jupiter, Marietta,Evansville) will outdraw any HS event..."
Looks like you've bit "hook, line and sinker, too"...
NO ONE goes to any "big time travel tourney" except the parents, the event organizers and a few college and pro scouts.
----
I went to one "tournament" game to see a particular "talked about" player last summer. Watched the game. Only a few parents were there (less than 10)...Spent the day in the sunshine and munching on grandmas' cherries that she purchased at the local supermarket.
Looks like you've bit "hook, line and sinker, too"...
NO ONE goes to any "big time travel tourney" except the parents, the event organizers and a few college and pro scouts.
----
I went to one "tournament" game to see a particular "talked about" player last summer. Watched the game. Only a few parents were there (less than 10)...Spent the day in the sunshine and munching on grandmas' cherries that she purchased at the local supermarket.
I see we have yet another "accurate" draft prediction. Amazing! Scouting Directors, let alone local scouts, can not tell you where a kid will be drafted. Yet people on this board seam to have that information 6 months before the draft.
As for High School baseball. It is way overrated. Nice? yes. Convenient? Of course. Necassary in terms of a players baseball future? No!!! Iowa kids receive scholarships and some are even fortunate enough to be drafted (if good enough). Yet there High School season is in the summer after the draft, and long after scholarship decisions are made.
EyeInTheSky
As for High School baseball. It is way overrated. Nice? yes. Convenient? Of course. Necassary in terms of a players baseball future? No!!! Iowa kids receive scholarships and some are even fortunate enough to be drafted (if good enough). Yet there High School season is in the summer after the draft, and long after scholarship decisions are made.
EyeInTheSky
Eyeinthesky, its sounds like your head is in the sky. Nobody on this site is saying that a kid will earn his scholarship his senior year. In most cases the player in his senior year is up against the clock. Most kids that get a scholarship are on the radar after their junior year. There is money available to a senior who has a tremondous year, but the big programs like to sign their kids in november. Most of the big programs that I have talked too are starting their 05 recruiting (letters) right now. THis is not football, where they wait until their senior year for a decision to be made.
Ballfan,
You have a private message.
You have a private message.
btil, go to jupiter in october and give me a head count.
Uh, Ballfan, I am quite aware of the recruiting process. But thank you for your insight. And you are correct, my head is in the sky, overlooking all :-). My point is that NOT all High School players are receiving scholarships via High School games. As for seniors being "up against the clock", I definatley disagree. Still plenty of money out there after the early signing period. Sometimes a kid can benefit by waiting. Different strokes for different folks. "Big programs", as you refer to them, usually have pro prospects that may be leaving aft their Junior season. Hence, their scholarship money could/will be available in June/July is they sign professionally. Kind of hard (and illegal) to dish that money out in the early signing period 9 months earlier. Sure, nobody wants to wait until June to pick a school. But it works out so well for some kids. The late blooms seniors and "undecideds" benefit greatly.
EyeInTheSky
EyeInTheSky
eye, you are dead wrong. i am the father of 3 guys wo were/are d1 players. if you dont sign by dec/jan you will get on avg less than 20%. if you wait or dont sign until after the season starts then youll get books-10% or invited to walk-on.and you will almost never get it from the school of your choice. this is why kids need to be noticed in HS and travel and attend workouts, camps, showcases etc. He who waits is making the big mistake.
sox...Why are you so absolute? (Eye...you are dead wrong)? I think that you are "dead wrong".
My son, Paul Petrulis, signed with Mississippi State in the spring, May of 1990, and got 50%!What he had inside, heart and attitude, was instilled in him by Jack Kaiser (God rest his soul!)
Some kids who travel, attend workouts, attend camps, showcases, etc., get NOTHING...Because they aren't players ready for the next level!
Many kids can't afford to do so many things that we so calmly suggest needs to be done.
--
Eye...Your post is right on with late money. Sox...your being so close to the "Noles" program, I'm surprised you would say some of the things you've said. Martin recruits 14-15 players each year knowing that some will get signed; that some of the current players are expected to get drfted after their junior year, i.e., Drew and others. And there will be money available after the June draft!
My son, Paul Petrulis, signed with Mississippi State in the spring, May of 1990, and got 50%!What he had inside, heart and attitude, was instilled in him by Jack Kaiser (God rest his soul!)
Some kids who travel, attend workouts, attend camps, showcases, etc., get NOTHING...Because they aren't players ready for the next level!
Many kids can't afford to do so many things that we so calmly suggest needs to be done.
--
Eye...Your post is right on with late money. Sox...your being so close to the "Noles" program, I'm surprised you would say some of the things you've said. Martin recruits 14-15 players each year knowing that some will get signed; that some of the current players are expected to get drfted after their junior year, i.e., Drew and others. And there will be money available after the June draft!
i'll buy your 50 % story btil, however after getting close to the noles program no undersized player like paul would be able to command more than 25% @ fsu at that late date.additionally,giving that kind of advice to kids is counterproductive to the end result.on the other hand i've seen some terriffic players settle for d2 way to soon. a lot depends on your overall game plan. 2 of my 3 boys would settle for nothing less than a top 20 program and we were willing to take less in order to have them play at that type of school.at that late date at fsu only top rated pitchers can get that high end $$ that paul got.and by the way i'm shocked he didn't sign sooner! did he hold out for Polk? What were his other offers? was size a signifigant problem? I followed paul very closely as my pat was his contemporary at fenwick. pat signed in april for only 20%
Beenthere, Thanks for seeing through the absolutes which is nonsense just as you pointed out. Please correct me if I ever make that same mistake.
Sox..Appreciate your comments and wisdom. Always great (sincerely) when someone can qualify their opinions like you did. But your sighting 3 personal cases among thousands. Where do you think all that scholarship money goes once college juniors sign professionally? Keep in mind, the juniors turning pro out of college are more likely to be the bigger scholarship kids. Makes sense right since they are the better players? Hence a large portion of scholarhip money is freed up in June/July, maybe even August when they sign a professional contract.
Unfortunatley, in your case and some others, the quality offers were not received in the spring, but rest assured someone is getting that money. Some $ may go back to other current players on their roster, but if they see a chance to add a really good new player, the offer will be on the table. Colleges coaches are very aware of what juniors they may lose in the draft. By April and May, they can start lining up possible "last minute" replacements. And there are still some really good players left unsigned, not to mention the kids that make huge strides and "pop up" out of nowhere. Chicagoland is famous for such occurences. And those players will not come cheap, especially if their is a bidding war. Happens each and ever year.
Furthermore, after the early signing period, SEVERAL schools still have a good amount of money left. There are winners and losers in the early signing period. But you can bet they all still need impact players, especially the losers. After losing the recruiting war in November they MUST win in April. And they have money to spend. Hence, for the quality players left over, the money will be there if he is a wise to these facts. As you point out Sox, not all schools still need several players or have money left to spend, but many do.
Think about it. In the early signing period, generally, all the better players are signed. Not all, but a large portion. Now these really good kids are fought over. Lets say 20 schools go after one really good kid. Well the player can only choose 1 school, so 19 schools are left out. Do they all have back plans? Sure. Will they all be able to react fast enough to sign the backup plans within the ealry period? Not hardly. So the ripple effect begins. Schools/Coaches work down their lists. And money trickles down as well, right into the spring.
The very best unsigned players right now, they are sitting in the cat bird seat! Rest assured some will get just as good a deal, if not better, then those signed early. Simple econonics really. Less good players available after Novemeber, but still a large number of colleges in need of quality players. But as you say, there can be risking in waiting if you turn down something good in November. So players, be wise in your decision making. Meaning, not too greedy.
Also Sox,you make a good point about a school a particular player may want to attend not having enough money in the spring. But if that school did not make that player an offer in the early singing period, then who cares. They obviously are not high on him so he needs to look elsewhere anyways. A very small number of players are fortunate enough to go to the exact school of their dreams. But that is ok, fortunately there are ton of good college baseball programs that need players. Will all the premier schools have the money for a good offer in the spring? Naw. But several will. Recruiting is far from over right now.
Average player in the spring gets less then 20%?@#! Not quite how you can justify that statement. Actually, no need to. You very well may be right (although probably not wise, as beenthere states, to quote like that is an absolute fact). The reason you may be right, is because most of the players signed in the spring are not the blue chip kids. Hence lesser offers to round out the final recruits. But as history has shown, not all receive less! There are still some quality players out there, and there is still money left for those kids.
Who waits is not always making a mistake. Who who jumps on an offer he is "not totally comfortable with" is making the mistake. If you are truly a great player, it does not matter when you sign. The early period is for those players completely comfort with a particular offer, school and/or coach. It is not a popularity or ego contest.
Bottom line kids. If you are fortunate enough to have and offer early that you really like, jump on it! But if it is not there, or you are not comfortable with the offers, schools or coaches making the offers, then hold off. Sox point out that their is risk in waiting, but it is not absolutely over for you. Not by a logn shot, so don't panick. Stay positive, and just go out and play your tail off in April. The recruiting process with start over for you. Trust me!
EyeInTheSky knows. :-)
Sox..Appreciate your comments and wisdom. Always great (sincerely) when someone can qualify their opinions like you did. But your sighting 3 personal cases among thousands. Where do you think all that scholarship money goes once college juniors sign professionally? Keep in mind, the juniors turning pro out of college are more likely to be the bigger scholarship kids. Makes sense right since they are the better players? Hence a large portion of scholarhip money is freed up in June/July, maybe even August when they sign a professional contract.
Unfortunatley, in your case and some others, the quality offers were not received in the spring, but rest assured someone is getting that money. Some $ may go back to other current players on their roster, but if they see a chance to add a really good new player, the offer will be on the table. Colleges coaches are very aware of what juniors they may lose in the draft. By April and May, they can start lining up possible "last minute" replacements. And there are still some really good players left unsigned, not to mention the kids that make huge strides and "pop up" out of nowhere. Chicagoland is famous for such occurences. And those players will not come cheap, especially if their is a bidding war. Happens each and ever year.
Furthermore, after the early signing period, SEVERAL schools still have a good amount of money left. There are winners and losers in the early signing period. But you can bet they all still need impact players, especially the losers. After losing the recruiting war in November they MUST win in April. And they have money to spend. Hence, for the quality players left over, the money will be there if he is a wise to these facts. As you point out Sox, not all schools still need several players or have money left to spend, but many do.
Think about it. In the early signing period, generally, all the better players are signed. Not all, but a large portion. Now these really good kids are fought over. Lets say 20 schools go after one really good kid. Well the player can only choose 1 school, so 19 schools are left out. Do they all have back plans? Sure. Will they all be able to react fast enough to sign the backup plans within the ealry period? Not hardly. So the ripple effect begins. Schools/Coaches work down their lists. And money trickles down as well, right into the spring.
The very best unsigned players right now, they are sitting in the cat bird seat! Rest assured some will get just as good a deal, if not better, then those signed early. Simple econonics really. Less good players available after Novemeber, but still a large number of colleges in need of quality players. But as you say, there can be risking in waiting if you turn down something good in November. So players, be wise in your decision making. Meaning, not too greedy.
Also Sox,you make a good point about a school a particular player may want to attend not having enough money in the spring. But if that school did not make that player an offer in the early singing period, then who cares. They obviously are not high on him so he needs to look elsewhere anyways. A very small number of players are fortunate enough to go to the exact school of their dreams. But that is ok, fortunately there are ton of good college baseball programs that need players. Will all the premier schools have the money for a good offer in the spring? Naw. But several will. Recruiting is far from over right now.
Average player in the spring gets less then 20%?@#! Not quite how you can justify that statement. Actually, no need to. You very well may be right (although probably not wise, as beenthere states, to quote like that is an absolute fact). The reason you may be right, is because most of the players signed in the spring are not the blue chip kids. Hence lesser offers to round out the final recruits. But as history has shown, not all receive less! There are still some quality players out there, and there is still money left for those kids.
Who waits is not always making a mistake. Who who jumps on an offer he is "not totally comfortable with" is making the mistake. If you are truly a great player, it does not matter when you sign. The early period is for those players completely comfort with a particular offer, school and/or coach. It is not a popularity or ego contest.
Bottom line kids. If you are fortunate enough to have and offer early that you really like, jump on it! But if it is not there, or you are not comfortable with the offers, schools or coaches making the offers, then hold off. Sox point out that their is risk in waiting, but it is not absolutely over for you. Not by a logn shot, so don't panick. Stay positive, and just go out and play your tail off in April. The recruiting process with start over for you. Trust me!
EyeInTheSky knows. :-)
eye, great post. some times i have blinders on and get carried away. on the other hand if the really solid PLAYER waits too long he'll probably 1) have fewer offers and 2)get less $. IMO its only PITCHERS that can afford to gamble, they are the ones to get the good $ when it becomes available late. Most programs in the top 25 simply wont go past 20% for PLAYERS. Its not like they HAVE to use that $. most important thing we have both failed to mention at this point is that if you stay pro-active through the process the entire experience will be easier to understand and you will be more likely to come out with a school that meets your expectations.
eyeinthe sky, I don't understand how you talk out of both sides of your mouth. You stated the HS ball is basically meaningless. Then in another post you say go out there and play your butt of in april to better your chance at recieving a college offer. I only responded to your original post to prove tht HS ball has a meaning and makes a difference. It is no secret that the longer you wait, the more you are up against the clock, but i also understand that good players will have a chance. Look at the kid who signed out of little concordia in river forest. To many times a parent is caught in where the offers or oppportunity come from and are less concerned inwhat is the best fit. I went to a d3 school in Wisconsin that does not give schloarships but plays really high caliber baseball. It was listed as the best D3 program in the country. They have had 57 kids drafted in the past 14 years. I am the first one to say to a kid that there is a program out there that will welcome a talented player who works hard and has a passion to play the game right. I am just confused about why you think HS ball is so useless.
sox...Ask Jim Hendry, now Cubs gm, about Paul and what he thought of him out of high school.
After all of the midwest coaches chimed in, it came down to Creighton and Mississippi State. To this date, I'll bet Hendry says that would have had a shot at the national title with Paul at shortstop as a freshman.
When Polk told Paul that he was bringing in a Gatorade Player of the Year from Louisiana, Paul's comment was: "So what?" He spent plenty of Friday and Saturday nights doing long toss at OPRF...Jack gave him a key.
When you see Mike DeFelice (not sure which team he's on in the big leagues now)...I can see Paul bowling him over at home plate (Paul was about 5"10" 165# and DeFelice was about 6'200#)...Mike went flying, dropped the ball and Paul scored the winning run for MSU. When asked why he bowled the catcher over, Paul said: "Because he had the ball!" That is the kind of player he was and that is why he had so many opportunities at a major college baseball program and then in pro ball. Paul had baseball intensity that few kids have.
His greatest baseball thrill was representing the United State on the US Junior National team in 1990. Look it up on the USA Baseball site (archives)...His teammates included Scott Spiezio, Jay Powell, Shawn Green, Brooks Keishnick, etc. He was selcted to the All tournament team as a 2nd baseman; and, we still have the the broken-down trophy which the Cubans gave him that reads: "Estrella de todo el mundo"
Paul is grateful for the opportunities that he had in baseball.
Oftentimes, "heart" makes up for size in baseball.
After all of the midwest coaches chimed in, it came down to Creighton and Mississippi State. To this date, I'll bet Hendry says that would have had a shot at the national title with Paul at shortstop as a freshman.
When Polk told Paul that he was bringing in a Gatorade Player of the Year from Louisiana, Paul's comment was: "So what?" He spent plenty of Friday and Saturday nights doing long toss at OPRF...Jack gave him a key.
When you see Mike DeFelice (not sure which team he's on in the big leagues now)...I can see Paul bowling him over at home plate (Paul was about 5"10" 165# and DeFelice was about 6'200#)...Mike went flying, dropped the ball and Paul scored the winning run for MSU. When asked why he bowled the catcher over, Paul said: "Because he had the ball!" That is the kind of player he was and that is why he had so many opportunities at a major college baseball program and then in pro ball. Paul had baseball intensity that few kids have.
His greatest baseball thrill was representing the United State on the US Junior National team in 1990. Look it up on the USA Baseball site (archives)...His teammates included Scott Spiezio, Jay Powell, Shawn Green, Brooks Keishnick, etc. He was selcted to the All tournament team as a 2nd baseman; and, we still have the the broken-down trophy which the Cubans gave him that reads: "Estrella de todo el mundo"
Paul is grateful for the opportunities that he had in baseball.
Oftentimes, "heart" makes up for size in baseball.
Ballfan, keep in mind that not everyone plays in a top notch conference or has a stand-up coach that does all the right things for his kids. i have met some heart broken dads with solid players that are ignored by the HS coach. don't forget that most kids in the US are not playing in front of scouts very often at any level. by the way, you are a very good example of someone that could have had a much bigger career had a certain coach worked a little harder for his players.(not to mention cory downs, matt marino and many others)
ballfan, soxnole, beenthere...
Great stuff!!!
ballfan, totally understand your point. Trust me, I understand your hypocritcal stand. But keep in mind any kid from Iowa reading this is not playing high school baseball in April. And any left over plays from the ealry signing period has no choice but to be seen in the spring. But to further stay on topic with this post, if high school baseball was eliminated kids would still be playing baseball in April. So my point, high school baseball is necassary because there would be something to replace it. if they canceled the 2004 season right now, all these kids would still be playing somehow somewhere, you can bet on it! As stated in my original post, high school baseball is convenient, not necassary. As Soxnole stated, for those at the quality school with quality coaches it is a large bonus. But those are few and far between really. And if the program is structured right, ftantastic, but in most places it is not. If the product is bad overall, then do away with it and bring on better baseball, better competition, better coaches, etc. Isn't that what happened to Little League? Sure, it is still around, but not ever good plyers is involved. Travel ball has taken over. Just look at the state of Iowa as a prime example. Those kids don't have even have a choice in the spring, but they have adapted nonetheless. As for there high school season i nthe summer, many of the better Iowa kids are still able to travel around to bigger and better events since they don't play massive amount of high school games. Personally ballfan, I do like high school baseball all around the midwest. But is it necassary? NO. It can, and would, be replaced if the IHSA or any school(s) cut baseball. That is what I mean by useless, unnecassary. Hopefully that makes things more clear. Eliminate it and the good, true baseball people will still be around. The great high school coaches will still be involved. But the good news, the "paycheck grabbers" will take a hike. Kids and parents would no longer be stuck with a coach, they could just play with whomever they want (ala summer). If they don't like the coach they only have themselves to blame, instead of complaining about the one at the high school. But the real plus, the kids would have more instruction (good baseball people) and less destruction (non-baseball teachers grabbing an extra couple thousand $ to coach). Sure, college coaches see some high school games. They do check up on kid they have already signed, crash in on kids that pop up out of nowhere and as discussed earlier they recruit the left overs goodies from the early sign period, etc. But basically, they do a bulk of there work in the summer, not in the spring. And if they need to see a kid in the spring, oppurtunities would be there IHSA baseball or not. I am sure you would agree with that. Anyways balllfan, hope that makes sense and clears my name from hyprocisy. And I am very glad you brang that point up. This board is for education, epsecially the the kids/players. No one should be scared off. Baseball will live on wether there is sanctioned high school basbeall in the spring or not. Let some school or the IHSA try to elimnate baseball, they would be doing true baseball a favor.
soxnole, no sweat :-). agree with you on many issues. we obviously disagree on the $ aspect, but hey that life. I think your more geared toward top 25 programs, the history I speak of is scholarships in general. After all, the majority of kids are not gonna get the chance to play in top 25 programs. And this is ok, there is great oppurtunity at any school, not just top 25 programs. In fact, most kids should avoid top 25 programs. The higher the ranking the more ruthless the recruiting, and business. You better be very special and seriously thought off upon entering the doors of those programs. Otherwise life will get tough very fast. The higher the ranking, the more they weed them out, ON CAMPUS!
Nice story on your boy beenthere...
EyeInTheSky - here to listen, and help educate the kids/players.
Great stuff!!!
ballfan, totally understand your point. Trust me, I understand your hypocritcal stand. But keep in mind any kid from Iowa reading this is not playing high school baseball in April. And any left over plays from the ealry signing period has no choice but to be seen in the spring. But to further stay on topic with this post, if high school baseball was eliminated kids would still be playing baseball in April. So my point, high school baseball is necassary because there would be something to replace it. if they canceled the 2004 season right now, all these kids would still be playing somehow somewhere, you can bet on it! As stated in my original post, high school baseball is convenient, not necassary. As Soxnole stated, for those at the quality school with quality coaches it is a large bonus. But those are few and far between really. And if the program is structured right, ftantastic, but in most places it is not. If the product is bad overall, then do away with it and bring on better baseball, better competition, better coaches, etc. Isn't that what happened to Little League? Sure, it is still around, but not ever good plyers is involved. Travel ball has taken over. Just look at the state of Iowa as a prime example. Those kids don't have even have a choice in the spring, but they have adapted nonetheless. As for there high school season i nthe summer, many of the better Iowa kids are still able to travel around to bigger and better events since they don't play massive amount of high school games. Personally ballfan, I do like high school baseball all around the midwest. But is it necassary? NO. It can, and would, be replaced if the IHSA or any school(s) cut baseball. That is what I mean by useless, unnecassary. Hopefully that makes things more clear. Eliminate it and the good, true baseball people will still be around. The great high school coaches will still be involved. But the good news, the "paycheck grabbers" will take a hike. Kids and parents would no longer be stuck with a coach, they could just play with whomever they want (ala summer). If they don't like the coach they only have themselves to blame, instead of complaining about the one at the high school. But the real plus, the kids would have more instruction (good baseball people) and less destruction (non-baseball teachers grabbing an extra couple thousand $ to coach). Sure, college coaches see some high school games. They do check up on kid they have already signed, crash in on kids that pop up out of nowhere and as discussed earlier they recruit the left overs goodies from the early sign period, etc. But basically, they do a bulk of there work in the summer, not in the spring. And if they need to see a kid in the spring, oppurtunities would be there IHSA baseball or not. I am sure you would agree with that. Anyways balllfan, hope that makes sense and clears my name from hyprocisy. And I am very glad you brang that point up. This board is for education, epsecially the the kids/players. No one should be scared off. Baseball will live on wether there is sanctioned high school basbeall in the spring or not. Let some school or the IHSA try to elimnate baseball, they would be doing true baseball a favor.
soxnole, no sweat :-). agree with you on many issues. we obviously disagree on the $ aspect, but hey that life. I think your more geared toward top 25 programs, the history I speak of is scholarships in general. After all, the majority of kids are not gonna get the chance to play in top 25 programs. And this is ok, there is great oppurtunity at any school, not just top 25 programs. In fact, most kids should avoid top 25 programs. The higher the ranking the more ruthless the recruiting, and business. You better be very special and seriously thought off upon entering the doors of those programs. Otherwise life will get tough very fast. The higher the ranking, the more they weed them out, ON CAMPUS!
Nice story on your boy beenthere...
EyeInTheSky - here to listen, and help educate the kids/players.
After having one son play minor league ball for 8 years I like the idea of ending the dream early if its to end. If you can't play w/ the big boys then go prepare yourself for the rest of your life.
soxnole...speaking of "big boys", how did your seminoles play against my sun devils 
Pretty darn well for 8 innings in each of the 1st 2 games. Gotta hand it to ASU. Both went to 2 out and 2 strikes in the 9th with the Noles in the lead. Oh well, I'll be pulling for the sun devils throughout the year. Rematch @ the Super Regional?
I was at the ASU/FSU game last sunday...I could see it in Martin's face every time he walked to the mound...can we get on a plane and get out of here yet? If their pitching performs like that all year...not sure a super regional will be in the cards. They might have had 10 plus walks...
IT sure was nice to see some baseball though...
IT sure was nice to see some baseball though...
Beenthere, as a matter of fact, I did ask Hendry about Paul...he said to tell you to ask Tyson Kimm his thoughts...
I hope that puts a smile on your face...
I hope that puts a smile on your face...
It seems to be rather logical that a player with lots of raw "potential" is going to be recruited whether he plays hs baseball in the spring , summer (or at all).
If he does not have that level of raw potential, but he is still a gamer - he is going to have to display some serous talent - not only at the hs level, but at a more competitive level as well.
Eye - as an Iowa parent I can tell you that getting to other events etc. is not as easy as you presume. Even if your schedule allowed it, during the hs season you cannot play outside hs without prior approval of the coach and athletic director (you can guess how often that is given). (and by the way - the better Iowa players may not be playing hs baseball in April - but they are playing baseball)
Having seen the added difficulties if I were from IL I would not be pleased with the proposed changes. However, it is not the end of the world.
If you are at all familiar with the Scout leagues The Perfect Game hosts in Iowa (and surrounding states in the fall) you will understand a very basic premise: where there is a need someone will find a way.
If he does not have that level of raw potential, but he is still a gamer - he is going to have to display some serous talent - not only at the hs level, but at a more competitive level as well.
Eye - as an Iowa parent I can tell you that getting to other events etc. is not as easy as you presume. Even if your schedule allowed it, during the hs season you cannot play outside hs without prior approval of the coach and athletic director (you can guess how often that is given). (and by the way - the better Iowa players may not be playing hs baseball in April - but they are playing baseball)
Having seen the added difficulties if I were from IL I would not be pleased with the proposed changes. However, it is not the end of the world.
If you are at all familiar with the Scout leagues The Perfect Game hosts in Iowa (and surrounding states in the fall) you will understand a very basic premise: where there is a need someone will find a way.
MLB...Thanks.
I really liked Jim when he visited us at home eons ago while recruiting Paul.
I'll ask Tyson when I see him. (lol)
I really liked Jim when he visited us at home eons ago while recruiting Paul.
I'll ask Tyson when I see him. (lol)