I'm getting sick and tired......

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Bobby Cox getting tossed so frequently was part of the entertainment he provided for the fans (and his players) over the years. I guess if upper management thought he was a problem he wouldn't have been around so long. Comparing him to anyone is just plane silly stuff.

Often times when a manager or coach gets tossed he is sending a message to his team, I think in his case he got it across, this is your game and you can determine who wins or loses, not me.

As some players have noted, the issue with Bobby is that he over did his ejections "requests" to the point they lost their effectivness. In many cases it became, "There goes Bobby, again."

It seems these days, with the number of time he gets ejected from the dugout, he really isn't even putting out the effort he used to. One player suggested that he's "padding his stats" as he nears retirement.

But your major point is valid. An ejection can be good strategy. I've had D-1 skippers tell me that they need to get tossed, and "make it a good one, Jim."

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

You can actually read umpires posts and make decision as to how good or bad or umpire they are?

I know I can read posts and determine whose out to stir up some trouble, and who is not.

In the virtual world a lot of opinion is based on how people respond to others, regardless of one's knowledge or whether he is the real deal or not.

By the way, I do know one thing ias for real, Gotwood sure got a REAL great sense of humor.

Maybe part of the issue that first exposure to umpires come via Rec leagues. My experience was mostly positive - but I do remember the less than stellar officials. However, they have to start somewhere, and often it's at the Rec level. Which brings up another problem, I would tend to think it's harder to officiate when players (and coaches) haven't developed a certain level of skill. I've seen games where the plate umpire was hit constantly because the catcher was just not able to stop the ball.

I also think some parents come to games expecting bad umpires. Any play that doesn't go their way is a bad call.

The higher we get though, the better the umpire. Somtimes though, if schedules get tight (not enough umpires for what ever reason), we have had umpires who are exhausted or hurt continue so the games can go on. I appreciate that effort, and those guys usually do a great job.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

You can actually read umpires posts and make decision as to how good or bad or umpire they are?

What I and many other umpires, including PIAA, MST, Dash, and Matt among others, can determine over time from reading posts is the level of training and understanding and umpire has. From how they phrase things and from the interpretations they know and cite, we can even determine who has professional training and, often, from which school or clinic.

True, we can't see their strike zones or how they perform mechanics, but we can determine fairly well the level of ball they call. I know, for example, that there are at least three umpires here who have some level of experience calling professional ball, several others with college experience and quite a few woring upper levels of HS play offs and championships.

I believe it probably works in a simiar fashion with coaches. One can see from posts how a coach thinks and works and, overtime, can make fairly valid judgments about them.

Strong fraternities exist in every profession. There are some professions where it is ok and human to make mistakes, in others it's unacceptable. We are talking about baseball, not someone making a bad call that could harm anyone.

The way I see it, if a bad call is made then it's up to the team to work a bit harder to climb back. Like the one this weekend when the ball hit the chalk line and called fair and then they got the runner out, that's baseball. I have seen a few umpires that want to show their power, very far and few between. I saw it this year, the leagues use the same umpires, they know the pitchers pretty well after umpiring many games, so most know where the pitcher will hit his spots, so they know when they are off and when they are on. That's good. Every once in a while you will see an umpire that just won't give anything to either one, that's frustrating and it happens. This year I saw a pitcher and you would swear every pitch was a balk, but that was his delivery, and they were familiar with his motion, I don't know if that is the rule, but that seems pretty fair to me.

As son has moved up, I see the same things called that you might not think is a fair call, as in HS and college. There are some things that drive me nuts and some things don't matter. It does even itself out in the end, or should anyway. If you are consistantly getting bad calls against you, you got to look inward and think about what you are doing as a coach. Coach May makes some excellent points in his post. The better the coaching staff, the better you teach your players, the less time you need to worry about bad calls that will hurt your game. The farther you go up the levels of the game, the less bad calls you will see, is because the skills are better, coaching is better, that doesn't mean it's not gonna happen. Again, it goes back to control what you can (a big part of this game), and again IMO if a coach thinks he's always getting bad calls, he needs to take a look at himself, whether he is doing his job correctly in teaching sound fundamentals, or not.
There is a big correlation between a team getting bad calls and their lack of skills and this is more evident in youth baseball than any place else.

I see it this way, if I were speeding and constantly getting pulled over, do I continue to blame the cops who give me a ticket or do I take into serious consideration I am not a good driver?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

As some players have noted, the issue with Bobby is that he over did his ejections "requests" to the point they lost their effectivness. In many cases it became, "There goes Bobby, again."

It seems these days, with the number of time he gets ejected from the dugout, he really isn't even putting out the effort he used to. One player suggested that he's "padding his stats" as he nears retirement.

PEDs are the only way we could explain Cox's record ejection numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by Chin Music:
"Beating A Dead Horse". When you insist on talking about something that cannot be changed.

I don't know what you are referring to when alluding to something that cannot be changed. There is a dialog occurring between fans, parents, coaches and umpires. Although no rules change will be affected, the approach, perception and actions of the people involved could very well be changed.

The ability to listen to others is the great strength of a civilized society. Consideration of their points and re-examination of our own beliefs based on that, shows the humility necessary of a person of solid character.

The only people "beating a dead horse" here, are the ones with their minds made up and feet of clay.

TPM

As usual you skirt the answer---can you tell a poster is a good umpire by reading his posts and the same with coaches ?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

As usual you skirt the answer---can you tell a poster is a good umpire by reading his posts and the same with coaches ?

I am not skirting the answer, truthfully I do not go much into the umpiring section to make that assumption. If I had a question I would not hesitate to ask.

I do know one thing here, pretty much can tell who is a darn good coach and who is not by their responses here to others. I think that CPLZ pretty much summed that up. JMO.

TRhit,

Please leave it alone. Your post appears to be trying to pick a fight. TPM is not required to reply to your questions.

TPM made a thoughtful post above which many of our members would be especially interested in reading since her son is playing professional baseball.

Let me repeat:

No other member here is required to answer your questions. Please leave it alone and stop trying to pick a fight.

Julie

EDITED:

TPM replied while I was typing. Never mind.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

As usual you skirt the answer---can you tell a poster is a good umpire by reading his posts and the same with coaches ?

I can tell from his posts that an umpire is highly proficient with the rules knowledge....his on field mechanics knowledge becomes evident as well as these accepted norms change and you will know that they have taken the recent classes to stay up yo date....

Of the most frequent posters here, I can tell you that they are all real and very highly qualified.....you personally had Dash Umpire a game of yours.....Jimmy is well known in Umpire circles as very highly qualifed at high levels....Mike Taylor is a man I consider a friend outside of the HSBBW.....I recently did the PONY WS tournament where one of our members sons particpated and have met PGStaff when my son participated in Perfect Game showcases....

These folks are all the real deal......

Knowing the rules and having supposed expert training does no0t necessarily make a good umpire and that is fact

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Knowing the rules and having supposed expert training does no0t necessarily make a good umpire and that is fact

While that may be true in a limited number of cases, it does in fact demonstrate the requisite desire to become proficient that we wish all people, not just umpires, showed in regard to their jobs.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
The point is not are there good/bad umps...of course there are many in each category!!!

The point is that the umpires, both on this site and in real life, seem to always "have each others backs" and are so scared of being wrong.

Of course coaches, players aren't perfect either and the only people who expect perfection are the parents (although not towards their own kid) (joke) (sorta)

If I'm coaching and "get on" an umpire for his strike zone, whatever, does that mean i'm not coaching my team and calling him a bad person?? Of course not, it means i'm a coach who wants to help my team in any way that I can.

What's wrong with having someone's back? I was in the supermarket a couple of days ago and a guy walks up to me because he recognized me as a varsity football coach. We're talking about how far we've brought the program and stuff but then he lights into our middle school coach who is new this year. I've met the guy one time and from what I can see he at least has the players trying to do the right thing but now this guy is thrashing him. You better believe I got his back and I'm going to defend him. Without that guy down there working to improve the middle school players the high school won't get much better. What good will it do to jump on the bandwagon? What if he and I have to work together one day as teachers or on the same football staff and I jumped on that bandwagon? Of course I got his back and I got out of that conversation in a hurry.

I hate being wrong and worry about it when I'm wrong. I don't deny it and I don't try to blame others. The good umps I've been around do the exact same thing. Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. When I say bad people I don't mean bad as in they go around kicking dogs, tripping little old ladies and that stuff - I'm referring to those who make excuses and blame others.

What do you change or create by going out to argue calls instead of going out to discuss them? When was the last time a coach went out and got on an ump and he changed the way he called for the perceived good? I've never seen it done but I've seen umps continue to call the same game and a very small percentage start making calls against that team. Never have I seen it go to helping the complaining team.

You don't like the strike zone because he's calling a ball and half off the plate - I tell my guys to go the other way with the pitch and not try to pull it. I tell them to hit the ball where it's pitched. I can't say I've always done this but this is the right thing to do.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

As some players have noted, the issue with Bobby is that he over did his ejections "requests" to the point they lost their effectivness. In many cases it became, "There goes Bobby, again."

It seems these days, with the number of time he gets ejected from the dugout, he really isn't even putting out the effort he used to. One player suggested that he's "padding his stats" as he nears retirement.

PEDs are the only way we could explain Cox's record ejection numbers.

Excellent!

I was just wondering. Do coaches go out and argue calls or do they go out for discussion as to what happened and why it was called the way it was.

I can't imagine that a coach or manager sees every call that he argues, and I will bet there are some coaches who are just more arguable than others. My husband used to say the reason for so many coaches arguing with umpires (when son was younger) was because they didn't know half the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I was just wondering. Do coaches go out and argue calls or do they go out for discussion as to what happened and why it was called the way it was.

I can't imagine that a coach or manager sees every call that he argues, and I will bet there are some coaches who are just more arguable than others. My husband used to say the reason for so many coaches arguing with umpires (when son was younger) was because they didn't know half the rules.

You'll probably get different answers depending on whom you ask and the level of ball.

Overall, in my experience, coaches and/or managers come out for four reasons:

1. Disagree with the rule/interpretation
2. Unfamiliar with umpires mechanics.
3. Gamesmanship
4. From their angle and distance sincerely believe they saw something different than the umpire did.

The percentages in which category that the coaches/managers trips fall will differ according to the level of play.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
"The Kids Today Do Not Swing The Bat Enough".

That right there, I don't care who you are, that right there, that's funny!

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I was just wondering. Do coaches go out and argue calls or do they go out for discussion as to what happened and why it was called the way it was.

I can't imagine that a coach or manager sees every call that he argues, and I will bet there are some coaches who are just more arguable than others. My husband used to say the reason for so many coaches arguing with umpires (when son was younger) was because they didn't know half the rules.

Jimmy is pretty much right on with his list of 4 things but there are others. I will say that when I've went out to argue a call it never crossed my mind that I was doing it to fire up my team. If I have to do something like that to fire up my team then I picked guys that don't want to compete.

Reasons why I've went out to talk / discuss / argue

1. Ask umpire what he saw on a play (basically Jimmy's #4). I think I saw this and they called that. I want to know what truly happened since I'm so far away.

2. Ask about a rule clarification. Like for example for some reason I can't remember how many bases you get from the field and mound on a ball out of play. I will go out and ask to make sure which one it is.

3. To tell him he made a great call on a close play although it didn't go my way. I saw it cleanly and it went against us and he got it right. I'll go out there and say "hey man - you made a great call. Good job and keep it up".

4. If I know the umpire pretty well I'll go out and tell a joke to him or to ask if he's seen the good looking woman in the third row. Basically it's a long season and you got to break the monotony. No better time than on a close play that doesn't go my way to get a pretty good laugh although nobody will ever see it because I make sure we are standing with our backs to everyone.

5. Probably not going to like this one since this is my thread about not getting onto umps. But I would like to add that this thread is about giving the umps on this site grief when it's not warranted. I want to go out and rip the ump a brand new one because I don't like him / agree with him / respect him. I know I shouldn't do it but sometimes it just happens.

Go out to see why he called what he called. Maybe I will learn something I didn't know.

Go out to let the umpire know I didn't agree with his call and to make sure he knows I am in the game.

Go out to let my players know I will stand up for them if I think we got a raw deal.

Go out just for the hel of it because I am bored in the dug out and just want to take the opportunity to say "Hey good call. I would have banged him out too especially since he didn't slide."

Thats about it.

I have learned over the years thats its all about how you approach a good umpire. If you don't go out there to show him up. If you show him respect he will show you respect. Most umpires played the game. They know exactly what you are doing. They understand the position you are in. I have also learned that a bad umpire will be defensive and abrasive regardless of how you approach him. He will take offense at you questioning a call or asking for an explanation. But again as I have said many many times the vast majority of umpires are good guys and love what they are doing. Just like the vast majority of coaches.

Wow. When I was a kid, and I asked my Dad why coaches argued with umpires even though they never seem to win, he said, "It's really not about that last call...its about making sure the next one goes your way."

That was an important day. I've lived my life by that principal every time I choose whether or not to fight. I can't understand any other reason for arguing a hopeless case, like whether an umpire was really right.

Not one of you coaches brought that up. You guys are about to ruin my whole philosophy of life, here.

Asking for clarification/learning/understanding...? Are you serious?

wraggArm I was brought up under the same assumption of why you go out to argue. It's going to get you a call later in the game and I started out my coaching career with that philosophy. I realized that it's a terrible philosophy.

Think of it like this...

A good ump will not be swayed by anything you say - he's going to call what he sees no matter what you say.

A jerk ump will get ticked off at you and hold that against you - probably have calls go against you later in the game.

A bad ump might live up to this philosophy and give you a call later in the game.....but the other coach might be owed one too. That could still come back to bite you in the butt.

You don't want a bad ump that can be swayed through arguments because once that gets out EVERY call he makes that is close will be argued. That makes for an ugly game.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
Wow. When I was a kid, and I asked my Dad why coaches argued with umpires even though they never seem to win, he said, "It's really not about that last call...its about making sure the next one goes your way."

That was an important day. I've lived my life by that principal every time I choose whether or not to fight. I can't understand any other reason for arguing a hopeless case, like whether an umpire was really right.

Not one of you coaches brought that up. You guys are about to ruin my whole philosophy of life, here.

Asking for clarification/learning/understanding...? Are you serious?

Myth number 42.

There's another poster on this board that makes that claim. Ridiculous.

I've never "owed" a call to anyone. In fact, my last ejection was a coach who told me I "owed him two."

My integrity is all I have to carry from game to game. If I give that up for one coach, every other coach will know about it and I will have zero credibility on any close call.

Would you really trust an umpire who gave you a call not to give one to your opponent?

I am amazed that there are some coaches who continue to say they want honest umpires then expect them to cheat.

Just curious as to why anyone would ever want to be an umpire? Other than the obvious... earning money.

I'm sure there are many different reasons. Just never seen it as something I would enjoy. Does it take a certain personality? Does the umpiring job ever rub off on personal life situations?

It's a tough job. I think most people really appreciate outstanding umpires even though they don't mention it a lot.

We see a lot of outstanding umpires, unfortunately we also see some who are a disgrace to the profession. It can't be avoided, baseball needs lots of umpires.

IMO... It's not so much about the calls, it's more about being professional in appearance and actions.

I have never expected going out to argue a call or get clarification on a call to get me a call down the road. If I actually thought that could happen I would be mad as hel to see the other coach go out to argue a call. What kind of umpire is going to base his calls on who came out and who didn't?

You don't like the strike zone because he's calling a ball and half off the plate - I tell my guys to go the other way with the pitch and not try to pull it. I tell them to hit the ball where it's pitched. I can't say I've always done this but this is the right thing to do.[/QUOTE]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with this theory above that I hear so often.....I would never want my hitters to "learn" to hit a ball that is considerably off the plate.....easy to say "hit it hit it the other way" from the 3rd base coaches box but a hard thing to do when you are the one actually facing a good pitcher.

I respect that you don't want your guys to swing at that pitch because I don't want mine to do that either.

But what are you, as a coach, going to do / tell your team if the pitcher is consistently getting that pitch (ball and half off the plate) called for a strike?

What are you going to do to put your team in a position to win that game?

You go the first three innings with 7 strikeouts and 2 weak outs due to the outside pitch being called - how do you change that to put your team in a position to win the game?

The best coaches make mid-game adjustments. Rather than arguing with umpires, wouldn't it be more productive to have your batters move closer to the plate?

Yep. And its not the umpires job to adjust to the coaches or the hitters. The strike zone will be determined by the guy behind the plate that day. Not by the coaches or the players or the fans. Its the players job to make the adjustment needed to give himself and his team the best chance to have success. If the zone is a ball off the plate then thats the strike zone that day. If he is giving us a ball off the plate we are going to take it. So be ready to hit it.

quote:

IMO... It's not so much about the calls, it's more about being professional in appearance and actions.

PG ... your single sentence above is right on. If he is performing professionally, we the Coaches, players and spectators barely realize he's there. I've made it a point, on more than one occasion, to seek the Ump out after a game to compliment him on his exceptional performance. There was no macho attitude, no on-stage theatrics, the game just flowed smoothly.

In those cases, the official managed the game allowing it to come to it's natural conclusion. We all go home not giving the "calls" or the Ump a second thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Yep. And its not the umpires job to adjust to the coaches or the hitters. The strike zone will be determined by the guy behind the plate that day. Not by the coaches or the players or the fans. Its the players job to make the adjustment needed to give himself and his team the best chance to have success. If the zone is a ball off the plate then thats the strike zone that day. If he is giving us a ball off the plate we are going to take it. So be ready to hit it.

Practically I agree with what you said here, however I must say that the strike zone is very clearly written in the rules and I always bristle a little when I hear a guy say "I have a low zone" or I plan to call a lot of strikes....what if an umpire "decided" to call all short hops catches? How would that be different?

I know i'm coming across as anti-umpire, but believe me I have a great relationship with our assignor and the umpires who work our games....I appreciate the good ones quite a bit, just don't care much for the over the top bravado.....i'd say the same about other coaches though too.

basballfan I'm just not following you here and I apologize for this but you really are losing me. What are you looking for with your posts?

Earlier you said in response to me about my post saying there's no point in griping / complaining / arguing about a strike zone. If a guy is calling a ball and half of the outside edge then tell your guys to go up there and hit it the other way. You said you didn't do that / want to do that because you don't want to teach your guys to go after that pitch.

Now Coach May said the zone is determined by the guy behind the plate and you don't like that. The zone is very clearly written in the rules.

So do these situations never come up in your games? If they do - guy calling a wide zone or whatever - how do you handle it? What do you tell your guys when they go to the plate and they are tkaing pitches off the outside edge that are being called strikes?

Are you going to have your hitters make adjustments? Are you going to go out and discuss this with the umpire although it's clearly written in the rules you don't argue balls / strikes? If you don't get tossed do you expect the ump to start calling a better zone?

I'm just not understanding what you want from us in terms of an answer or whatever.

Fair question.....what I would tell them is don't take a good pitch in the zone and put yourself in a position to get punched out on a bad call.....I might tell them to crowd a little and try to foul it off but I generally don't blame the hitters if they get called out on a bad call....I know that all hitters "lie" about where the pitch was but catchers on your team can tell you how the zone is.

I will say that i've coached long enough to know how to find the line of what you can get away with and as far as strike zones i'm not afraid to "chirp" a little....

I gotcha and seems like good coaching. I was just getting the impression that you were telling your guys to just lay off that stuff and then you would argue with the ump LOL. I was pretty sure that's not what you were trying to get across and I'm probably the only one to not get it but I got it now.

Baseball is truly a game of adjustments but they are adjustments that casual fans will never see or realize. I coach football and am the offensive coordinator but when I make an adjustment at halftime it's pretty obvious to MOST fans what i've done. Basketball is fairly the same but baseball is so different. Moving closer to the plate by 3 inches could make the biggest difference between a weak grounder or a screaming line drive. Funny thing is nobody is going to notice what you did.

These adjustments are huge when dealing with umps. Good umps you have to make fewer adjustments but bad umps then you better be ready to make a lot of adjustments.