In state scholarship vs Out of state

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Please explain the out of state scholarship as it applies to the NCAA 11.7 scholarships allowed. For instance if a coach gives a full ride to an out of state player (including out of state tuition) does the NCAA look at that as 1 scholarship? It has been my understanding that as far as the NCAA was concerned the coach can give 11.7 out of state full rides.
Fungo

I am confused as to what you are asking but will take a stab.

As far as the ncaa, I don't think ( I could be wrong) that they give a hoot who comes from where, a full scholarship is a full scholarship no matter who gets it.

However, remember that the coach can only give as much money as he has in his budget, which is not based on out of state tuition. 11.7 out of state full scholarships would most likely not fit his budget.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Please explain the out of state scholarship as it applies to the NCAA 11.7 scholarships allowed. For instance if a coach gives a full ride to an out of state player (including out of state tuition) does the NCAA look at that as 1 scholarship? It has been my understanding that as far as the NCAA was concerned the coach can give 11.7 out of state full rides.
Fungo

My understanding is that each school has to place a dollar value on 1 athletic scholarship based on a number of variables and computed through some ncaa equation.

So, because that 1 scholarship has an actual dollar value placed on it, covering an out of state kids tuition might use 40% of the dollar value of 1 scholarship, whereas an in state kids tuition may only equate to 30%.

Also, if the question is in reference to a comment by Coach Polk ...he maybe referencing a state funded academic scholarship in Mississippi ...I dont know if they have one or not. Like bright futures in florida, HOPE in Georgia etc. etc.

I think the dollar value is based on an average COA (not the actual) by the university. In other words, take all the students enrolled and average the tuition and that x 11.7 is what sets the budget.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I think the dollar value is based on an average COA (not the actual) by the university. In other words, take all the students enrolled and average the tuition and that x 11.7 is what sets the budget.

That could very well be true. I dont know, I am interested to find out if anyone knows. I'll ask arounf, I should probably know this.

This is from the Journal of College Admissions.
Cost of Attendance (COA): The Cost of Attendance varies from Institution to institution. For example, the COA at a community college will be considerably lower than that at a state university which in turn usually has a lower COA than a private college. The Cost of Attendance includes tuition, living expenses, books and supplies, travel costs and personal expenses. Each school determines its own COA following federal guidelines.

Since the COA is different for an in-state and an out-of-state student, do both the in-state and out-of-state costs factor into determining the COA "average"?

quote:

if the question is in reference to a comment by Coach Polk

Estone28,
Yes it is ---- TRHit said ---- I still remember the education he gave me regarding the instate Mississippi situation for student athletes---he informed me that college baseball is a business as well as a sport and my son being an out of state student was worth three equal players from in state--it had nothing to do with talent but the simple economics involving players of equal talent.

My son (out of state) was in much the same situation as indicated by TRHit. He played in the same conference as Mississippi State except he was in Alabama. Like the state of Mississippi, Alabama had no HOPE type scholarships. My son’s scholarship covered out of state tuition as indicated on the bursar’s statement and indicated the out of state portion was not waived. I was led to believe there was no scholarship disadvantage in being an out of state student. If tuition was covered it made no difference to the coach or the university where the student was from. It wasn’t like the higher cost of out of state tuition would eat up more of the 11.7. If Polk’s comment was tempered by the budget imposed on him by the University then that doesn’t make sense because one would assume that Mississippi State has as much money in their baseball coffers as any program in the country and would only be limited by NCAA regulations.
Fungo

Maybe Polk was referring to the higher cost of out of state players versus in state players compared to thier budget. Without using real numbers I'll make some up just to explain my thinking.

Let's say the total budget is $500,000. If out of state COA is $30k and all of thier 11.7 schollys are out of state, that costs them $350k of the budget. That leaves them with a balance of $150k for everything else.

But if in state COA is $15k, their 11.7 schollys cost $175K and they'd have a budget balance of $325k.

Maybe that's what he was referring to?? No clue what I'm talking about. Just guessing!

Beezer got it right for his figure. I do beleive the figure is based on AVERAGE COA, that would be combining all out of state and in state and that would be the figure that makes up ONE full scholarship. If in state tuition is inexpensive and out of state is expensive he could get 2,3 players for the price of one (for a full scholarship). Now a school HAS to give minimum 25% to each, whereas before he could give instate less and if they had state scholarships paid for then he could get in 3,4,5 on one scholarship, which is why many have had high roster #'s.

I know this because my son was given almost a full scholarship based on out of state tution, and I was trying to figure out how it can be afforded since they recruit many out of state players as well. That's when I was explained how the coach's budget works. He has certain money to spend and it doesn't matter how he spends it as long as he doesn't go over 11.7. If that state gives their state students tuition, well then all he has to do is give them living expenses, which could be maybe 2,3K a semester, leaving more to spend on out of state students. Or all he has to do was give them book money and some in state player would be happy to wear the uni and cost the coach almost nothing to have him on the roster.

I hope the above is understandable.

quote:

Let's say the total budget is $500,000. If out of state COA is $30k and all of thier 11.7 schollys are out of state, that costs them $350k of the budget. That leaves them with a balance of $150k for everything else.

But if in state COA is $15k, their 11.7 schollys cost $175K and they'd have a budget balance of $325k.

Beezer, Trust me I’m not trying to argue my point because I don’t know either. I tend to agree with you that that is what’s being alluded to but I’m not convinced that’s the way it happens. I know state universities “charge” more to out-of state students ---- but as I see it ----- the actual “cost” to a university would be the same to educate an in-state as an out of state student? I also know the NCAA puts a dollar amount on a full ride but I have been told by some coaches that the additional out of state tuition does not factor in and draw from the coach’s budget allowed by the NCAA. I don’t think the NCAA sees the college paying or waiving the out-of-state tuition as an added benefit.

TPM while I do know that lotto and academic money are factors in recruiting and create an uneven playing field, In this case I'm only asking how the NCAA looks at in-state vs. out-of-state tuition. When my son was recruited there was no lotto money in Tennessee, Mississippi, or Alabama. Tennessee has since added lotto funded schollys and I don't know about the other two states. Ron Polk would always complain that states like Louisiana and Florida had an unfair advantage over Mississippi because they could recruit their in-state players (LA &FL) for little or nothing because of the state funded scholarships and then turn around and offer more scholarship to the better Mississippi players. Besides, TRHit's son was recruited long before the lotto scholarships became an issue.
Fungo

Fungo,
Here are a couple of excerpts of the D1 manual. I think the excerpts show that a college is free to charge varying amounts of tuition, etc. (which could include a difference between in or out of state) as long as the policy is available to students generally. For example, the college could decide to charge less for left handed students, but not just left handed pitchers

I think it also shows that a college can compute the fraction of a full grant-in-aid (which is basically the same as the COA) in two ways. The fraction is formed by a numerator (the top part of the fraction for those who have been away from school for a while ) which is the actual amount awarded to the student, but the denominator can be the actual COA for that student or could be the average COA for all students.

Presumably the college needs to use the same calculation method for all players across all sports. The average cost for all students will be typically somewhat higher than the in state cost. So if a college has primarily in-state players considering all sports, I suppose they would use the average cost method, and an in-state player who is getting all expenses covered would compute to perhaps an 80 or 90% scholarship (equivalency). A fully covered out of state player might compute to 200 or 300%, and significantly eat into the 11.7 scholarship pool. I think this scenario might play out if, for example, the football team draws mostly from in state. On the other hand, if the college draws a significant number of players from out of state, then I suppose they would use the actual cost of each player in the denominator, and all fully covered players would cost 1 equivalency.

As I usually note, I am not an expert, and could be all wet, but I did read the rules.


15.02.2 Cost of Attendance. The “cost of attendance” is an amount calculated by an institutional financial aid office, using federal regulations, that includes the total cost of tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies, transportation, and other expenses related to attendance at the institution. (Adopted: 1/11/94)
15.02.2.1 Calculation of Cost of Attendance. An institution must calculate the cost of attendance for
student-athletes in accordance with the cost-of-attendance policies and procedures that are used for students in general. Accordingly, if an institution’s policy allows for students’ direct and indirect costs (e.g., tuition, fees, room and board, books, supplies, transportation, child care, cost related to a disability and miscellaneous personal expenses) to be adjusted on an individual basis from the institution’s standard cost figure, it is permissible to make the same adjustment for student-athletes, provided the adjustment is documented and is available on an equitable basis to all students with similar circumstances who request an adjustment. (Adopted: 1/11/94)

15.5.3.2 Equivalency Computations. In equivalency sports, each institutional financial aid award (per
Bylaw 15.02.4.1) to a counter shall be computed as follows:
(a) Once a student becomes a counter, the institution shall count all institutional aid (per Bylaw 15.02.4.1)
received for room, board, tuition and fees, and books up to the value of a full grant-in-aid. Books shall
count for calculation purposes as $400 in the denominator and, if they are provided or their cost covered
by the institution, as $400 in the numerator, regardless of the actual amount received. Exempted government grants per Bylaw 15.2.5 and exempted institutional aid per Bylaw 15.02.4.3 specifically are excluded from this computation. (Revised: 1/9/96 effective 8/1/96, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)
(b) A fraction shall be created, with the amount received by the student-athlete (up to the value of a full
grant-in-aid) as the numerator and the full grant-in-aid value for that student-athlete as the denominator
based upon the actual cost or average cost of a full grant for all students at that institution. Financial aid unrelated to athletics ability (see Bylaw 15.1) received by the student-athlete in excess of a full grant-in-aid shall not be included in this computation. (Revised: 1/10/90, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)
(c) The sum of all fractional and maximum awards received by counters shall not exceed the total limit for the sport in question for the academic year as a whole.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
but as I see it ----- the actual “cost” to a university would be the same to educate an in-state as an out of state student?

You're crazy! Don't you know that OOS buritos in the cafeteria and text books cost more than the same ones for IS students????

Someone told me once the more out of state students accepted by the school for teh genereal student population helps athletic departments, because it raises the average COA and raises coaches budgets.
This means that a coach has more $$ to give out to recruit top prospects, in state and out of state. I don't know if this is true, but makes sense to me.

at risk of oversimplifying, this is how it was explained to me by a friend of Beezers who is a college coach

their recruiting account has 2 catagories - -

1) cash dollar amounts for catagories of room, board, books, & fees

2) 11.7 tuitions are viewed separatly and do not have a fixed cash value

a tuition is most easily understood when viewed as a coupon which can be divided among several players.

ex - if they split a "tuition" 50/50 between 2 players, 1 tuition is "used up"... if 1 player is out of state his 50% has more $ value to him (only on paper), but baseball has still just used just 1/2 a tuition on him.


also note that "qualifying students" in states with Hope, Bright, etc scholarships can attend college for less than $2000 tuition.

ex - in those states a coach could/would use $800 of "book money" (2 book monies - basicly chump change out his budget) as a 50% tuition offer to a "qualifying student", saving his actual "tuition coupons" for in-state guys who don't have the GPA for Hope & for out-of state guys as they would have way more dollar value to those type of players.

hope that helps

quote:

11.7 tuitions are viewed separatly and do not have a fixed cash value

a tuition is most easily understood when viewed as a coupon which can be divided among several players.

ex - if they split a "tuition" 50/50 between 2 players, 1 tuition is used ... if 1 player is out of state his 50% has more value to him (only on paper), but baseball has still just used just 1/2 a tuition.

Thanks Bee. Good post. I didn't know they had two accounts but it makes perfect sense. That falls right in line with what I had been told. Your post also helps to explain the real advantage of the HOPE when it comes to in-state players. One "tuition coupon" could range in "value" from less than $2,000 if given to the HOPE qualifier to as much as an amount equal to an out of state tuition (possibly over $10,000) --- depending who the coach gave it to. Using the "cash" account to pay the HOPE athlete's tuition and saving the "coupon" for the more expensive players sounds like good business.
Fungo

Well, here I go possibly sticking my foot in my mouth. NCAA D1 baseball is a head count sport. This means they have 11.7 scholarships for players. They can't give 15 players partial scholarships. Any form of athletic money to any player constitutes as 1 scholarship. Whether it's for $2,000 OR 20,000 it counts as 1 scholarship. NAIA sports can put partial packages together to several as long as they do not exceed the maximum dollar amounts given by the university for that respective sport.This is how it's explained to me. Thus it is in the benefit of a D1 college to give full scholarships. If I'm wrong, please explain differently.

mray,

I am not sure where you got your info.
D1 has 11.7 to give out, they can give it out anyway they wish, 100% constitutes one. It can be in combination with academic awards given by the school.

The dollar value has nothing to do with the percentage as far as the NCAA is concerned as long as 1 full does not exceed the COA determined by that particular university and it's a minimum of 25%.

From my experience I have found that not all schools do the same thing when it comes to out of state of players

It is best that you investigate any schools you are talking with---you might find that you will be mildly surprised at what you find

What bothers me is that we see all these new posters here with all the "info"--I have been involved with this stuff for some 15 years now adn I still do not have all the answers---every day it is a new thing


mray--what is your background in this aspect of the process?

we know that the mray info is wrong. very wrong. but that's o.k., I'm sure mray is here to learn as well. D1 baseball is an equivalency sport, not head-count.

one thing that gets me confused is that I don't see how a university pays that much more for an out-of-state vs. an in-state. We are talking about their cost (the college), not the student's cost. The university makes more profit (so-to-say) on an out-of-state student vs. an in-state. Now I don't know how college tuition "COST-OF-GOODS-SOLD" works but it would seem that the baseball coach shouldn't have to worry about in-state vs. out-of-state because the university's cost would be similar. Perhaps the state and federal government is involved and gives more money to the university for in-state participation vs. out-of-state.

mray,
A. Your notion of baseball scholarships is not only wrong, it isn't even consistent with itself: If any athletic aid to a player constitued 1 scholarship, how could a team give out 11.7? There would be no way to give out 0.7 scholarships, so the effective limit would be 11.0

B. Scroll up to my first post in this thread. I have helpfully quoted the rule that gives the formula the NCAA uses to calculate how much each player consumes from the pool of 11.7 equivalents to a full grant-in-aid.

quote:

Originally posted by switchitter:
We are talking about their cost (the college), not the student's cost.

I think we should be talking about tuition costs from 3 points of view.

First, there is the effect on the baseball team's budget. The coupon concept that Bee mentioned would mean there is no significant effect on the budget, although it isn't obvious to me that all colleges use this concept.

Second, there is the effect on the pool of 11.7 equivalencies. As I pointed out in my first post of this thread, and as TPM has mentioned, if the college uses the average COA method of determining the denominator in the equivalency formula, an out-of-state student can use up much more than one equivalency.

As an example, if the in-state COA is $20K, and out-of-state is $30K, and 90% of the student body comes from in-state, then the average COA is $21K. An in-state player on a full ride would compute to 95% of an equivalency, while an out-of-state player would compute to 143% of an equivalency. To take the extreme case, if the entire baseball team came from in-state, then there would be 12.3 scholarships available, and if all the scholarship players came from out of state, there could only be 8.2 scholarships.

This aspect has nothing to do with budgets or real costs. It only has to do with compliance to NCAA rules. Of course a college can avoid this by using the actual cost for each player in the denominator, but I suspect most find it more favorable overall to use the average COA.

The third consideration is in fact the player's cost. If a player is comparing the offers of two schools, and both have offered 50% of a full ride, an out-of-state college's offer is not as financially attractive as an in-state college. The player would need to come up with more of his own money to attend the out-of-state school. From the college coach's perspective, an in-state player is preferable--the in-state player consumes less of the scholarship pool for any given percentage of a full ride, and the coach can probably get a more higly ranked player from in-state because he can make a more attractive financial offer. And this will be true even if the coach has tuition coupons.

I'm glad I brought this up. Seems as if we have at least 4 different opinions.

3 finger glove says (with TPM in his camp):

quote:

To take the extreme case, if the entire baseball team came from in-state, then there would be 12.3 scholarships available, and if all the scholarship players came from out of state, there could only be 8.2 scholarships.

while BEE> (and me) says:

quote:

if 1 player is out of state his 50% has more $ value to him (only on paper), but baseball has still just used just 1/2 a tuition on him.

TRHit says:

quote:

I have found that not all schools do the same thing when it comes to out of state of players

mray says:

quote:

Any form of athletic money to any player constitutes as 1 scholarship. Whether it's for $2,000 OR 20,000 it counts as 1 scholarship.

3fingered glove, Could the following guideline explain why a college can waive the OOS and not factor it into the cost of a scholarship? -- and may make TRHits point valid?
Accordingly, if an institution’s policy (that statement alone indicates there are different policies) allows for students’ direct and indirect costs (e.g., tuition, fees, room and board, books, supplies, transportation, child care, cost related to a disability and miscellaneous personal expenses) to be adjusted on an individual basis from the institution’s standard cost figure, it is permissible to make the same adjustment for student-athletes, provided the adjustment is documented and is available on an equitable basis to all students with similar circumstances who request an adjustment.

I am convinced we don’t understand this process. I know I don’t. If I had a son about to be recruited I would find the answer because it could help me understand the appeal (or lack of) an out-of-state player vs an in-state-player and the scholarship offer.
Fungo

FUNGO

I think we find the answer by talking with the school that is recruiting you---nobody else

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
3fingered glove, Could the following guideline explain why a college can waive the OOS and not factor it into the cost of a scholarship? -- and may make TRHits point valid?

Yes, that guideline is exactly why I think that colleges can waive the OOS surcharge on tuition--or use other means of providing variable pricing for attending the college while still meeting NCAA requlations. As I tried to point out in the first paragraph of my first post, they just need to make sure that the variable pricing is available (but not necessarily publicized) to students generally. I suppose that public colleges will have non-NCAA mandated rules that constrain variable pricing, and that may vary from state to state. Variable pricing is familiar to all of us-- for example, hotel rates, airline fares, or medical costs. Harvard charges no tuition to families with less than $40K income--it isn't financial aid in the sense of a scholarship, but rather a waiver of tuition.

Regarding four different opinions, I really think the first three are completely compatible. We just need to separate in our minds the baseball program budget from the pool of 11.7 scholarships. Charging or not charging OOS tuition is probably not significant to the program financial budget (which I take to be Bee and Fungo's point), because it can be treated as a soft cost. It is however, significant to the equivalency calculation (TPM and 3FG), if the college uses the average COA method.

Does the NCAA actually govern how much a school is allowed to spend on out-of-state scholarships? If so, how does that square with private schools where it's the same price for everyone? Is it not simply a matter of how much each school is allowed internally? IOW, would Mike Fox at UNC be scrutinized if all 11.7 of his ships were out-of-state? At Duke, almost all of Coach McNally's ships are out-of-state.

Coming in late to this discussion. But many states have a friendly neighbor policy and they dont charge out of state back and forth.I know in Ca. they have it with Nevada, Hawaii, and some sort of discount for Colorado schools if you are from a certain state.Thats for all students not just athletes.

In Illinois we are now lucky enough, with the latest tuition hike, to pay out of state tuition for in state students. UofI will be over $20,000 annual tuition for incoming residents next year.

But everytime our Gov., Rod Bigliarvich, gets on TV decrying some tragedy, he promises millions to help the victims of the tragedy overcome their grief.

We're so lucky...

Sorry, My confusion was with the head count rule with other sports such as basketball and football . So, I am familiar with NAIA rules on sports which is the equivalency rule for all sports. So is D1 baseball like NAIA only .3 less on scholarships?
Is it also the case that any aid ( other than financial ) given by the college is counted against the baseball cap? If that is true, then in or out of state matters not. The 11.7 times the COA gives the total dollars allowed to be given to all players. With the possible exception of other aid given by the school. I may be new to this forum but not knew to life.

quote:

Any form of athletic money to any player constitutes as 1 scholarship. Whether it's for $2,000 OR 20,000 it counts as 1 scholarship.

Fungo, I'm wrong about Baseball. The above is only true in head count sports.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
In Illinois we are now lucky enough, with the latest tuition hike, to pay out of state tuition for in state students. UofI will be over $20,000 annual tuition for incoming residents next year.

But everytime our Gov., Rod Bigliarvich, gets on TV decrying some tragedy, he promises millions to help the victims of the tragedy overcome their grief.

We're so lucky...

CPLZ, that's why I left

I go to a smaller regional school (Southeast Missouri State) but recently compared it to Eastern Illinois where my sister goes.. It is nearly as cheap for me to go out of state at SEMO than it is as instate at EIU.