Increase Velocity

There is also evidence of total/peak forces changing in long toss, which you support.

You are right, of course, it's a multivariate question. That being said, I highly recommend you read the research published by DeRenne and Blitzblau which support my argument.

I'm a big fan of long toss. I think until you have consistently done this and have a great base of arm strength, hold out on all of the others. I think Jaeger's program is as good as any.

Just because your son didn't use something doesn't mean it's not a good thing. There's a lot of good information that using under weighted and over weighted balls will help a great deal (if used properly). We use them in our VIP classes in our program and have had 12 guys top 95 in the last decade and a couple dozen more over 90. We also use Alan J's long toss program (good friend- best in the business). Bottom line- don't discount things you don't know about.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
The use of weighted balls is at best unecessary and at worst dangerous. The increase in velocity comes from conditioning, long-toss and perfecting mechanics and a repeatable delivery. The use of weighted ball throws all of that out of whack.

Besides, it is not really the arm that creates velocity. It is the kinetic chain, the whip, that is created in the pitching motion. The arm is just along for the ride.

Bum Jr. never used weighted balls.

CDP, I can discount whatever I want. I especially feel weighted balls are potentially dangerous to use.

Long-toss, critical.
Weighted balls, dumb.

There is always something to sell in baseball. It just gets players to lose focus on what really works, conditioning, long-toss and mechanical training.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
There is always something to sell in baseball. It just gets players to lose focus on what really works, conditioning, long-toss and mechanical training.

Very true.

There are thousands of guys that have thrown over 90 and did not long-toss or use weighted balls.

I would venture to say that the majority of 90+ pitchers never used weighted balls.

quote:

There is always something to sell in baseball.

This

That is some of the worst logic I've ever heard. Just because a bunch of people threw 90+ without weighted baseballs does not mean they are useless.

Additionally, I pointed out actual research that shows how beneficial weighted baseballs can be, and you haven't refuted the points that long toss changes total/peak forces in much the same manner.

You (and many others) aren't interested in a real discussion. You're happy to just assert things that have no basis in fact. At this point, I'm not trying to convince you - I'm just pointing this out to anyone who happens to read this thread.

EDIT: If you like anecdotes so much, you know who used weighted baseballs? Mariano Rivera. Was he good?

quote:

Originally posted by Kyle B:
I pointed out actual research that shows how beneficial weighted baseballs can be

DeRenne used 4-6 oz balls in his study (at least the one I read). Your website indicates you are using 3-7 oz balls.

Is there another study using 7 oz balls?

quote:

you know who used weighted baseballs? Mariano Rivera.

I read where he warms up with them before games (not sure what size, or how many pitches). I haven't seen where he trained with them to increase his velocity.

hbo had a show on a few months ago.(real sports)they high lighted a former milb player who had blown out his elbow ,had 9 screws in it so not olaying anymore. he was a coach at a high school so he tried this new work out, to be able to teach his players if it worked.they used wieghted balls ,but never let go of them. long story the coach who was never supposed to pitch again strengthened his shoulder and elbow and over the winter raised his velocity to 95. he'd never thrown 95 before. so seattle signed him he's been in the big league bull pen all season. not doing to bad.

bryant gumble real sports on hbo, worth finding it.lol it makes more sence from the show than from me.

If you take 100 great pitchers who hit 90+ and 10 use weighted balls it's pretty easy to start an academy using the names of the 10 players who use weighted balls and say.. "hey, so and so used weighted balls so they must work.."

What about the other 90?

Again, show me the study, I mean real study not one paid for by the weighted ball industry, that shows cause and effect.

I'm waiting.

Actually BUM there are a number of studies done on these. Dr Bogonzi (the pitching professor) from New England did his Phd based on weighted baseball studies, this was done over 20 years ago.

I have a couple but here is one that I just cut and pasted some, sorry the formatting is messed up.

My son's college program uses a modified version of Ron Wolforth's program. There is lots of information on them and I believe there is enough scientific evidence that shows they can be effective. Any program has to augment a good throwing program, and they are typically done off season. I would not recommend one until the player has reached biologicial maturity and they are certainly not a silver bullet just one addition workout that can be added to a complete conditioning and throwing program.

2007 Council Bluffs (IA) Abraham Lincoln Velocity Plan

By: Jerry Kreber, Assistant Baseball Coach
Objective:
To develop strength and endurance in the pitcher’s throwing arm, while trying to
increase explosiveness with torso and lower body movements.

Background:
In the fall of 2004, I conducted a weighted ball study at Omaha Central HS. The
study included eight players ranging from 15-18 years old. The program ran for 9 weeks
from September to November. In the study, players were given a set of Decker Weighted
Baseballs, which included three different balls weighing 4 ounces, 5 ounces, and 6
ounces. Players were trained in usage of the balls and in the execution of dry mechanical
exercises, which were created by the National Pitching Association (NPA). For throwing
purposes, players threw the weighted baseball three times per week with a rest day inbetween
each throwing session. Players were tested every three weeks measuring their
throwing velocity using a JUGS radar gun. In the final results, players made a marked
improvement, with some increasing their velocity by 5-8 MPH. The average increase for
the entire throwing sample was 4.25 MPH. Below, I have included a table documenting
the experiment’s final outcomes:
Name Baseline Test 2 Test 3 Final Test Increase
Player 1: 82 MPH 87 MPH 90 MPH 90 MPH +8
Player 2: 85 MPH 84 MPH 87 MPH 87 MPH +2
Player 3: 76 MPH 79 MPH 81 MPH 82 MPH +6
Player 4: 79 MPH 83 MPH 84 MPH 84 MPH +5
Player 5: 76 MPH 80 MPH 84 MPH 84 MPH +8
Player 6: 84 MPH 84 MPH 84 MPH 84 MPH NC
Player 7: 76 MPH 76 MPH 76 MPH 77 MPH +1
Player 8: 76 MPH 79 MPH 78 MPH 76 MPH +3
AVG 79.3 MPH 81.5 MPH 83.0 MPH 83.0 MPH 4.13 MPH

So, are weighted baseballs strengthening a particular muscle that increases velocity? If so, which one?

At the same time did they test players results who were not using weighted balls?

In one of his more recent books Tom House has several articles/chapters dealing with weighted balls. I BELIEVE this is in Fastball Fitness, but the book is at home so I wouldn't swear to that. As I recall, it contains the DeRenne article, the Kreber article, and one or two more. I believe House did his own "study", but again I don't have the book with me. Regardless, House clearly endorses the use of weighted balls.

TPM asked if anyone ever tested players who were not using weighted balls. I'm pretty sure Kreber did have a control group that did not long toss. Not sure about the rest.
HOWEVER, the one thing that I would like to see is a study comparing Weighted Balls vs. Long Toss vs. Daily Throwing W/O Long Toss vs. No Throwing at all. To my knowledge no one has ever done this.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
So, are weighted baseballs strengthening a particular muscle that increases velocity? If so, which one?

It is the one beween your ears.

If the weighted ball is not intended to strengthen a muscle, then what is the point of it?

Overload and under load training has been part of increasing athletic performance across a wide spectrum of sports for many years, so it should not surprise to anyone that they have some positive effects on throwing a baseball, and there is enough material out there that suggests they do work. However, like any training program they should be one small part of a whole regime, or maybe not. It is really up to the individual to pick and choose an effective program for them. Going out and making them the singular way of improving performance would be a huge mistake IMO.
Asking ignorant questions like “what ONE muscle does a training program impact” just shows your lack of understanding on what any training program accomplishes. But hey when you do find that one golden muscle that improves throwing velocity, let us know. In the mean time I suggest you use the one between your ears a bit more.

quote:

Asking ignorant questions like “what ONE muscle does a training program impact” just shows your lack of understanding on what any training program accomplishes.

I never realized that asking a question made one 'ignorant'. I thought it was when one can't answer the question. Who knew?

It's my understanding that overload and underload training relates to muscles.

I know when I do curls, anyone can tell me that my biceps will (well.. should) get bigger.

I want to know what the extra 1-2 ounces does. It should be a simple answer since 'there is enough material out there that suggests they do work'.

People are making claims of huge velocity increases (5-8 mph!) simply by using this extra 1-2 oz.

Since this is the overload portion of the training, this extra couple ounces of weight is either:
- making one or more muscles bigger, or
- changing a technique

Which is it?

I'm at a loss, since 1 oz. is surely not enough extra weight to make your legs stronger... or your torso stronger... or your biceps/triceps bigger.

I apologize in advance if this question upsets you.

MTH thanks for listening. I just would like to see a fair comparison. I don't see any significance as to why they are necessary.
I am with Bum on this one.

i've bought weighted balls years ago. we played around with them, i recomend dads do this as well. the quick results are crazy, you swear you can catch a regular baseball in your teeth.as it is so light. DR. Bagonzi was a friend ,after reding his book and talking to him .i thought it was worth a try.didn't really click with us. more to it than just playing pass. book is worth a red.

as with anything research, questions ,tial and error. but the old standby is long toss, works great takes no money, time well spent with your boy's. can't lose.

oh yes swimming don't hurt either.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
If the weighted ball is not intended to strengthen a muscle, then what is the point of it?

Motor units can be more efficiently recruited through neurological adaptation. Not everything has to do with strengthening. Additionally, mechanical efficiency can increase with use of under/overload balls.

There is a YouTube video available that touches on some of this that I published:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W84Am7RjvgQ

quote:

Originally posted by Kyle B:
Motor units can be more efficiently recruited through neurological adaptation. Not everything has to do with strengthening.

So, you are saying that overload training is used to change technique, and not strengthen muscles?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by Kyle B:
Motor units can be more efficiently recruited through neurological adaptation. Not everything has to do with strengthening.

So, you are saying that overload training is used to change technique, and not strengthen muscles?

It can be used in such a way. But the effect is likely multivariate; i.e. positively impacts speed-strength from a physical adaptation side ("muscle strengthening," so to speak) as well as neurological adaptations.

quote:

Originally posted by Kyle B:
But the effect is likely multivariate; i.e. positively impacts speed-strength from a physical adaptation side ("muscle strengthening," so to speak) as well as neurological adaptations.

This is sounding more like Dick Mills every day.

Too bigawords for me to understand....

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

quote:

Originally posted by Kyle B:
But the effect is likely multivariate; i.e. positively impacts speed-strength from a physical adaptation side ("muscle strengthening," so to speak) as well as neurological adaptations.

This is sounding more like Dick Mills every day.

Except for the many posts on this very site (and ASMI's) of he and I vigorously disagreeing. He does not believe in the speed-strength component of "non-specific" training, including but not limited to weighted baseballs. He (more like Dr. Rushall) discredits Dr. DeRenne's work.

So, no. Nothing like it.

It means that you learn a "feel" that helps you throw harder. When my son did a science project around using weighted balls he picked up velocity right away, far too soon for there to be any strengthening effect. After that there was a plateau and then only a small increase beyond that toward the end of the 9 week period. As far as we could tell from our not all that well controlled study he picked up between 2 and 3 mph. The raw numbers showed a 4+ mph increase but running the numbers brought it back to most likely 2+ mph which is still a lot for 9 weeks. He was using the Bagonzi "protocol" never throwing with full effort or full distance with the weighted ball.

JMO, but different people benefit from different things. Some may benefit from a strengthening effect but I believe that generally gains come from simply learning to use more effort or learning to move the arm faster.