Incredible Pitch Count

Hopefully he was a knuckleball pitcher....

Otherwise what was the coach thinking and where were the parents....

And who counted the 167 pitches ?

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I know his arm has got to be hurt!!

Do you mean you think it is a near certainty that the pitcher's arm is injured by throwing 167 pitches?

Such a high pitch count is unusual these days (and I would go out on the field to stop my son from throwing that many), but the fact is that for most of the history of baseball, that would have been a typical pitch count if the pitcher was still effective. And there isn't much to suggest that arm injuries were more prevalent then.

It is a strange contradiction: most of us believe that 167 pitches is (or is more likely to be) harmful, and we track pitch counts to avoid high ones, yet most people believe that arm/shoulder injuries are more common today than in the past, when high pitch counts were typical. And pitchers had three days of rest instead of four.

There's a lot about pitch counts and arm health that we just don't understand. Generally people try to play it safe by limiting the number of pitches, and I subscribe to that. But the basis for believing that the number of pitches is related to arm health is pretty much unfounded.

Anyway, maybe 167 pitchers hurt his arm, or maybe not at all.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
And who counted the 167 pitches ?

Our team and there team why?

goeagles

Just curious

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
And who counted the 167 pitches ?

When I guess on a high count (100+) I find I'm usually high by at least ten pitches. Other parents tend to be off by more.

On the other hand, who says his arm HAS to be hurting. When I was in high school we always finished what we started. We might even relieve an other game during the week. Today's pitchers (and their parents) have been conditioned to low pitch counts. Who says this kid isn't conditioned to a 150 pitch count.

Nolan Ryan thinks today's pitch count limitations are absurd. The Texas Rangers are going to work on stretching out and conditioning arms to go much further. MLB pitchers used to pitch 275-325 innings per year on three days rest and not succumb to injuries at the rate of today's pitchers. Now only a handful of MLB pitchers reach 200 innings (and it's a big deal). Being called a "7 inning pitcher" used to be an insult. Now it's a commended.

Sorry, no JV HS pitcher is conditioned to go 167 pitches at one time. Don't compare a still growing body to what grown men have accomplished. And pitch counts in a game have nothing to do with # of innings a pitcher throws in a year.

Add that up to what he pitched in a week's time (including BP's). Worse yet, would be if he HADN'T pitched as much before that game. Also important is how much he threw per inning. High pitch count innings are not good.

I'll bet he's pretty sore, I'll even bet down the road sore becomes pain.

The Texas Ranger's "new" philosophy is not new to many teams, just to them. Just because a pitcher is on a 5-7 day rotation should not mean that he does nothing in between those games. Most MLB/MILB pitchers that pitch are back and throwing the next day, so are many college pitchers.

The pitcher's of yester year, except for a few freaks of nature, used drugs and alcohol to relieve the pain, which was legal to use by MLB standards.

There is validity in using pitch counts, but it doesn't mean squat unless managed properly.

Found a discussion about this here:

http://hardballcoach.com/?p=760 LINK

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Add that up to what he pitched in a week's time (including BP's).

Around here, I don't see many high school kids throwing BP. And if they are, it's from 20-30 feet and not very hard.

With that said, it must have a blow out for a JV pitcher to stick around that long. There's no way he was "cruising right along" and throwing that many pitches in a 7-inning game. Now, maybe that 167 included his warm up tosses too? For all you pitch counters, how come you don't count those too?

Bulldog,
If they don't throw a bull pen what do they do? Short relief when not starting? Just curious.

BP, warm up pitches and then 167 pitches in a game, what was that coach thinking?

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If they don't throw a bull pen what do they do?

I'm sorry... around here "BP" is "batting practice"

Here is where the pitch count irritates me - which numbers are they using when they criticize a coach?

Here are the different types of counts a coach can / does use

1. Game pitches to batters
2. Game pitches and start of inning throws (8 in first and 5 after)
3. Game pitches, start of inning and pickoff throws
4. Game pitches, start of inning, pickoff and bullpen work before the game.

Everyone talks that 100 is the magic number of when to pull a pitcher but which 100 are we talking about?

Imagine this - pitcher throws 7 innings in his start and he throws 90 game pitches. Get some debate over this but let's look at the actual numbers.

90 game pitches
38 warm up throws start of inning
30 bullpen throws
7 pickoffs

He has thrown 165 "pitches" for this game. How much outrage would be stirred up if this was the only number people saw without looking at the facts?

If an 18 year old pitcher threw 90 pitches in a game I doubt anyone would say anything but they don't realize just how many throws a pitcher makes in a day.

If you just use the 100 number then that means a pitcher is starting the game with only 62 pitches left after he finishes his bullpen and 8 warmups in the first inning. If he averages 15 pitches an inning then that gives him about 4 innings of work before you have to pull him.

Eagles...167 pitches for a JV pitcher is out of line period (too many for a varsity pitcher too for that matter). If the varsity coach is paying attention to what's going on at all, the JV coach has a major but chewing coming. I hope that kid's parents have a talk with him about how to politely and professionally tell the coach he's done in the future.

OMG! Call the arm abuse police! A friend's son caught eighteen innings today over seven hours and had to make 298 return throws to the pitcher. Including warmup tosses that's additional 144 throws! Abuse! Abuse! 442 throws!

RJM...you know darn well the varsity coach would not be happy about 167 pitches, just like a college coach wouldn't be happy with his HS senior recruit throwing that many. And, you know darn well that the intensity and stress on throws from the catcher are NOTHING like that on a pitcher's arm. Last time I checked, catchers don't throw many sliders back at the pitcher. If the stress was the same, you would have as many TJ elbow proceedures on catchers as you have on pitchers. Will throwing 167 one time ruin the kid's arm...probably not. But if he threw that many once, he probably will again and it will catch up with him.

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Will throwing 167 one time ruin the kid's arm...probably not. But if he threw that many once, he probably will again and it will catch up with him

Okay, but answer coach's and my question.. would you say that 167 includes all the warm up tosses, pickoffs, long toss, etc? If not, then why don't those throws mean anything?

I've read your posts, Bulldog. You know better. You know no one counts those pitches and all pitch count guidelines are only live game pitches. But, they arrive at those knowing there's a general ratio of game to other pitches. When pitchers damage their arms...who is the best Doctor out there they all turn to? Dr. Andrews in B'ham. What does he say about pitch counts for a high schooler...80 in a game. Maybe that's a bit on the safe side, but I think it's safe to say 167 is on the "high" side of safe.

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Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
RJM...you know darn well the varsity coach would not be happy about 167 pitches, just like a college coach wouldn't be happy with his HS senior recruit throwing that many. And, you know darn well that the intensity and stress on throws from the catcher are NOTHING like that on a pitcher's arm. Last time I checked, catchers don't throw many sliders back at the pitcher. If the stress was the same, you would have as many TJ elbow proceedures on catchers as you have on pitchers. Will throwing 167 one time ruin the kid's arm...probably not. But if he threw that many once, he probably will again and it will catch up with him.

I believe kids can be built up to higher pitch counts than allowed. I agree with TR. Kids don't throw enough. How come my generation finished every game they started, often relieved another game and didn't hurt arms?

RJM...I don't think your generation had 8 year old teams playing 70-90 games in the spring/summer and another 20-30 in the fall. I don't recall 10 year olds throwing breaking pitches either.

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RJM...I don't think your generation had 8 year old teams playing 70-90 games in the spring/summer and another 20-30 in the fall. I don't recall 10 year olds throwing breaking pitches either.

And this happening is a good thing?

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And this happening is a good thing?

No, seems a bit excessive to me but it's happening alot. All the more reason surgeons are seeing more and more TJs and rotator cuffs needing surgery on very young kids...and why those surgeons are recommending tighter pitch count controls and time away from throwing for part of the year.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RJM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
And who counted the 167 pitches ?[/
On the other hand, who says his arm HAS to be hurting.

Im sorry maybe i should have said SORE.