Incredible Pitching Performance

Congrats to the young man, but I'm hoping most of those innings were... let's see, how about 4-pitch innings?


Julie

22 innings in 2 days, sorry that is ridiculus.

A quick bit of googling reveals that he throws sidearm/submarine. Those guys tend to have rubber arms.

We have a guy who has similarly been used like that in his senior year without paying for it or losing effectiveness.

Also, what an unbelievable career Heath Wyatt has had. The numbers are unbelievable. One stat from the team page stood out to me -- Games in which they led in the 6th or later, they are 29-0

This does make a big difference:

"...he throws sidearm/submarine."

It's a different type of stress on the arm than the full overhand pitching motion. Think of fastpitch (softball) pitchers... they often pitch consecutive games.

Julie

267 pitches in 28 hours?

Does LL or ASMI consider sidearm pitching in their guidelines?

Kudos to Wyatt's commitment to the moment. Today's achievement is tomorrow's memories. Why settle for anything less?

Great job by this pitcher. It's good to know there are still ballplayers out there not afraid to take the ball as often as possible and swallow the clicker. Good old school stuff. And being a submariner, he can go all day and did.

Pitching sidearm or submarine is not quite like a softball or slow pitch motion. It relieves the stress from the shoulder, but often transfers to torque to the elbow and wrist. Often, pitchers who have problems with their shoulders drop down to a side arm or submarine slot to relieve the stress.

Take a look at the photos or videos of side arm/ submarine pitchers and they often lead with their elbow. Softball and slow pitch motions seem to use more of the whole arm, but even at that, the rotator cuff and labrum are taking on an unnatural workload.

It would be great to know if ASMI has studied this kind of motion.

Heroic or crazy? IDK, but having been to ASMI with two players, seeing them go through 2 labrum, one Tommy John, and one L5 and 6 back surgery, I can tell you that any repetitive motion takes its toll. Watching a few sidearm pitchers, one of whom threw 155+ pitches in one game, I can tell you that it is not as easy to tell when their motion breaks down.

Often players are out there on pure adrenaline and could not tell if their arm is falling off, much less hurting. It is often not as obvious with sidearm pitchers when their mechanics start breaking down because they can go into a variety of slots. That does not mean that they are not suffering, just that they are playing through it.

Pitch count and limits in non-professional ball are not meant to dumb down the sport. If anything, I think it makes it a much more interesting and competitive sport. Certainly, good common sense, and good, intelligent coaching should dictate use of pitchers, but that is not always the case. In youth sports (and I include most college sports, although it could be argued that D1 is mostly a professional undertaking), in the heat of the game, the W seems to drive decisions, rather than athlete's well being.

Pro teams are even becoming more astute in their use of, and conservation of, players. They are recognizing that they are assets and they want to preserve them. Taking the long view is often harder, but smarter.

The high school or college player may not ever play pro ball, but they may want to lift up their children, play toss with their son or daughter, brush their own teeth, or cut their food.

I am all for supporting the team and putting the team need before the needs of individuals, but sometimes, putting the needs of the individual over the immediate need of the team is actually more beneficial to the team in the long run. It can cause more pitchers to be developed and available to pitch. It can be unselfish in that, while it might be great for one pitcher to go the distance, what happens when he suddenly can't? You hand the ball to the same guy too many times and you haven't developed anyone else. You have also not shown confidence in anyone else. Suddenly, you are in post season play and have to rely on a pitcher that you've only used a couple of times. Suddenly, you are putting the ball in someones hand and saying "I know that you can do this." Then, why haven't you used them before?

There will never be an agreement on this. Old school v. new ways. Pu***es v real men. Men v women. Moms v Dads. Coaches v parents. Science v creationism. Nature v nurture. There is no right or wrong. However, I would rather err on the side of protecting any player from harm over taking the win.
Unless, perhaps there is adult making multiple millions of dollars putting himself on the line and making the decision. Even then, the franchise has a vested interest that is going to be expressed, if not be decisive.

quote:

The high school or college player may not ever play pro ball, but they may want to lift up their children, play toss with their son or daughter, brush their own teeth, or cut their food.

Holy mackerel, if only this were true. Then we could all storm the high school field and drag other people's kids off kicking and screaming and nobody would get their nose bent out of shape. Imagine, pitching yourself into the nursing home!

Are you sure someone won't legislate a ban on pitching and order pitching machines used in all games?

And why is it any more important to protect a "prospect" arm than just the average pitcher? Is it the promise of a professional experience or the money? And , provided someone is an adult, what gives anyone the right to decide if a person's future possibilities are more important than his current opportunity? Especially given that your performance in the current opportunity might just determine your future possibility!

It really annoys the pitch count zealots when someone overachieves with respect to the "accepted" norms of pitching. It makes all the other pitchers look.....well....inadequate. And we can't have anyone embarrassing the masses.

Wow! I'm not sure that I get your point, but I don't associate high pitch count with overachievement. I associate it with a health and safety issue.

I don't speak to specific pitch counts. I think that 20 pitches can be too many in certain circumstances.

I am not advocating legislating or banning anything. I am encouraging a smart, informed, long term view for everyone, including prospects.

I differentiated professionals, and specifically those who make large salaries. They usually have agents and advisors to watch out for their interests. They are also an asset of the organization, so the organization, hopefully, has some self interest in preserving that asset.

As I said, there is no right answer to this. I am advocating an approach that could benefit all parties.

A high achiever is going to achieve at a high level, whether you run him into the ground or not. Why not keep him standing as long as he can so he can continue to achieve, both for himself, and for his team?

Would you agree with this?

Limiting a pitcher's playing time, limits his opportunities.

And that the pitcher's future opportunities depends on their past performances.

If this were not true, why pitch in a game ever until you get the full ride scholarship or the big contract. Because they want to know how you will perform when it counts.

Is that how we really should be developing pitcher's? Have them throw as little as possible and still reach their potential, whatever that is determined to be?

No padino I don't think limiting a pitchers playing time limits his opportunities for the future.

PA Dino,
What's your point?

I'm a big fan of pitch counts and being smart with pitchers, etc.

But here's how I look at this particular situation. Here's a senior and (probably) a 22 year old man. If he wants to risk his arm health to win it all, I think that is his prerogative. He's old enough to decide whether to risk his health in this situation, and I'm sure no coach forced him out there. To build up to this one outing at the probable end of his career and lay it all on the line is probably not a particularly high risk situation. Obviously throwing all those pitches is the highest risk that this arm will ever face, but it isn't as if this weekend makes devastating arm injury a certainty.

The key is to make sure that kind of use is only in those once or twice in a lifetime type of situations, and not a pattern over time.

Even though I referred to a specific game, I was making a more general point.

You talk about the possibility of being in regionals. What if that game had caused an injury that took him out of the rotation? Micro-tears of ligaments are cumulative, do not regenerate, and often don't cause problems immediately, or even the next day. That particular outing for that particular pitcher may cause no damage. That doesn't mean it makes sense or was the right thing to do.

I know that my son, if not prevented, would pitch until his arm fell off - even after going through labrum surgery. Hopefully, wiser, more thoughtful minds will prevent him from doing that.

I have had to ask myself - what would prevent me from rushing the mound if I saw that he was overtly endangering his arm? The first time he hurt his arm, I kept my concerns to myself - the coach knows best, do it for the team, we need to get to post season play, it is his body....
Then came surgery, long rehab, and continued uncertainty if he will ever get back to, or surpass the player he was before the injury. I don't think that I would end up rushing the mound, but I don't think I could sit and watch him do it again.

Watching the game and the player you are referring to literally made me ill. Every pitch he threw over 120 twisted my stomach a little more. I love the guy. I know that he puts it all on the line, and I love him for that. I also care about him as a person and love the person that he is. I don't think that baseball defines him as that person. It is part of him, but he is so much more. I care more about him than I did about that game. Hopefully, as a teammate, you also care more about him than about a win.

Players need to take care of each other, as well. Both of my players know when someone is hurt and not saying anything. My catcher has talked with his pitchers, telling them that they should be straight with their coaches. One kid, who was probably a D1 prospect in high school, never spoke up and lost his opportunity to play in college. I love him as a person also. He also, is so much more than baseball. But I am sorry that he lost the opportunity to do something that he truly wanted to do, and had the talent to do, because he didn't speak up when he was hurt and no one was pulling him off the mound when it was obvious to anyone paying attention that there was something wrong. His velocity and accuracy were way off. Not just for one game, but repeatedly. He still helped the team to win, but I'm not sure that the W's that he put up in high school were worth it.

I guess that all of this is blasphemy here on the HSBBW, but I know, only too well that baseball ends sooner or later. If you really love it, do what you can to keep on playing. Take the long view. Being a good teammate sometimes means being selfish in the moment. Taking care of yourself is one of the best ways to "do it for the team".

Even more, know that you are so much more than a baseball player. You are a whole person who may want to play into your senior years (and I don't mean high school or college senior), you may want to teach your son or daughter how to play. You may want to coach and throw batting practice. You may want to reach a coffee cup off the shelf!

I'm not saying that you shouldn't compete to the max. I'm just saying good sense should prevail.

We can disagree about what constitutes good sense. My stomach is a good enough barometer for me.

While I believe P&C Mom has alot of wisdom their is another aspect to baseball we all love. It's pushing to the edge of human ability. Risking health through the weightroom, steroids, too many throws, etc all are examples of baseball bringing out the competitive instincts in all baseball players and coaches. As a parent I'll error on the health side everytime, but my son as a player wants to find the respect and glory of doing something few people can do. It's why they prepare and play and instinctually every player and coach knows when to seize the moment. I don't know if I explained it very well and have occaisionally had to pick up the pieces when it hasn't worked out but in Heath Wyatts case whether he plays another inning or not he'll be a better person for what he accomplished.

P&CMom,

I've read every word you have written... very impressive! No doubt you have a lot of experience in dealing with injuries. You are very wise and your concern for others is quite obvious!

I agree with nearly everything you have said, except I'm not sure about one thing.

For the most part pitching injuries and resulting surgery affect mostly baseball. I know many guys walking around with zippers, including my son, that can do nearly anything they want. The one thing that is most troublesome for them is throwing a baseball as well as they used to.

I'm not downplaying arm, shoulder or elbow injuries caused from throwing. However, IMO, knee and back or head injuries are more likely to affect quality of life (long term) than throwing injuries. Of course, no injury is a good injury.

I understand that labrum surgery rehab is especially tough without quite the success rate of TJ surgery. I'm sure you would know much more than I do when it comes to that.

It always amazes me how far the field of sports medicine has advanced over the last 50 years. Especially when it comes to the cost.

You ask... you get...

Center for Human Performance and Motion Analysis Laboratory study Correlation of Throwing Mechanics With Elbow Valgus Load in Adult Baseball Pitchers

quote:

Fourteen pitchers displayed a sidearm delivery and had significantly higher elbow valgus torques than did those with an overhand arm slot position.

quote:

For the most part pitching injuries and resulting surgery affect mostly baseball. I know many guys walking around with zippers, including my son, that can do nearly anything they want. The one thing that is most troublesome for them is throwing a baseball as well as they used to.

PG, when it comes to shoulder surgery, and especially more than one, there can be far more impact on work and daily activity living than just in baseball.
In general, if there is an element of instability remaining post shoulder surgery,residual scar tissue, limited motion, pain and the like, or some combination, caution needs to be followed for activities from waist level and above, and especially for shoulder level and above type work.
For instance, if that player wants to be a baseball coach, they are immediately faced with issues and potential impact. The same would be true for other work involving frequent over head or at or above shoulder activities.
On the other hand, because these activities outside of baseball can usually be done post surgery, the player tries to do them either to get back into baseball or to make a living post baseball.
The concern is over the longer term(15 to 25 years) and the impact of those repeated shoulder motions on an injured joint, as opposed to what we might expect be post spine/back injury where the limitations can be more immediate and clear cut.
Gradually, the shoulder joint can deteriorate with work or daily living activities above waist and certainly above shoulder level, especially if there is some residual instability from the labral repair, removal of a part of the acromium and the like.
With enough degeneration, shoulder replacement surgery gets recommended.
Before that, there is a major impact on work and daily living.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I understand that labrum surgery rehab is especially tough without quite the success rate of TJ surgery.

You are right on the money with that comment.
I have a torn labrum and have sought several opinions from top surgeons. They all said TJ is routine with positive results being the norm now days. However a torn labrum is a different matter, and the success rate for full recovery is significantly less for elite athletes. That is especially true for those athletes that require repeated high stress levels on their shoulders such as pitchers, tennis players, volleyball players, etc.
So I am waiting until my son gets into college before I go under the knife since I can at least still throw with him, just not with very much zip. Now that he is doing the Jaeger long toss program, there is no way I can throw the distances he does with my spaghetti arm. Then again I'm not sure I could ever have thrown 320+ feet to the glove even when I was younger and my shoulder was healthy.

PG, Sultan, Infield, Vector,

Great input!

Sultan, I wish that I could say that I completely understood the report that you sited, but I get the gist of it. It sounds like my hypothesis about side arm pitchers may have some scientific backing. Although I think that the variables that they refer to make it impossible to universally predict the effect on any given athlete.

PG, I am neither a scientist nor an expert of any kind. I have just been around a lot of players who have had TJ and/or labrum surgery. I have been through it with my two guys. I read and ask a lot of questions and seek advice from those who are experts.

I do know that the consequences of shoulder and labrum injury do not manifest in any one particular way. A person with nerve impingement will have a very different experience from someone who has frayed labrum. Whether the labrum has pulled away from the bone or torn down the middle would impact how it manifests. An individual's inflammatory response would be unique from everyone else's. Pain tolerance, age, expectations, commitment to rehab, all factor in.

Of the two labrum injuries my boys had, one literally could not lift his arm above his waist without extreme pain. The other just had a loss of velocity. When they went in for surgery, the one with the loss of velocity actually had more to repair than the one with the pain. Both rehabbed before surgery to see if they could live with the injury. The one with the pain didn't get the relief he needed just from rehab. The one without pain received some relief from rehab, followed orders to a "T", shut down for the prescribed period. When he went back to participation (gradual return) there was an immediate return to pre-rehab status.

The son with no pain in the shoulder is also the one who had TJ surgery. MRI's did not show any patent tear of the ligament, but testing and exam indicated that there was a problem. The day after testing, before consult about surgery, son could not comb hair or cut an egg. Dr. Caine in Andrew's office told us that he had just completed an analysis of 10 years of the clinic's Tommy John surgeries. He said that in 80% of the surgeries where there was no blatant tear detectible on MRI, once they got in, they found that the ligament, while not detached, was non viable. It would be yellow and hard from accumulation of micro tears and could not function the way it should. It should be white and soft.

I don't know how to compare acute pain with chronic pain. I don't know the long term consequences of living with a torn labrum or shoulder instability, without having it repaired. I have had one knee replaced and have had three arthroscopic surgeries on the other. I've had fractured discs in my back since I was 21. I now have degenerative discs in L, T, and C vertebrae. The son who had the back surgery had shooting pain down both legs - not a good sign - surgery was not optional.

Through all of this, I have seen that it is possible to live with all kinds of limitations and pain from injury or limitation and pain due to joint disease. My quality of life before my knee surgeries was far better than son's quality of life before their surgeries. They also are facing a lot more years with their injuries than I am with mine.

Bottom line, there is a lot more that can be done with joint repair now than there was 20 years ago, but it is still not ideal. Yes, the dollar cost assigned to such repairs is substantial, but so is the day to day toll taken by pain and limitation on movement. My expertise, such as it is, would dictate that if you can avoid any and all of the above, do so. I'm not saying to not play hard, go all out, put it on the line. All I am saying is be smart. Do what you can to avoid injury. Good genes help - as bad genes can cost. Preparation, training, conditioning, following pitching protocol (NEVER have I advocated for pitch limits as a panacea for all arm problems), and some amount of good luck all are factors in arm health. Control the factors that you can, then hope and pray for the best.

Based on a cursory look at the report it seems to say that sidearm pitchers put higher valgus loads on their elbows. It may be a side effect of opening early.

I don't think that one can draw any conclusions relative to submarine pitchers from this report.

JMO, but I don't think submarine pitchers open early the way sidearm pitchers do so the valgus stress might tend to be lower. Submarine pitchers also typically throw slower than overhand pitchers thereby reducing stress. I don't know if they throw slower because of the arm slot or if in general they go to that arm slot because they didn't throw hard enough/have enough movement in the first place.

A friend of my son's who is a submarine thrower just finished throwing 11 innings in a double header to help his team advance after losing game 1 of their best of 3 JUCO regional.