Inducing a balk?

Before you get started trying to figure out ways to cheat by this unsportsmanlike act let me remind you that this is illegal in NFHS rules....

NFHS rule 3 section 3 (o)

A coach, player, substitute, attendent or other bench personnel shall not:

O. Call "Time" or use any command, or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk.

Penalty:

The Umpire shall eject the offender from the game and any balk caused by this action will be ignored.

So decide if it is worth attempting a cheap advance if your going to be ejected, as I will most certainly eject you if I have any indication you caused the balk.

By the way, the NCAA has this same rule.......

First of all don't balk. Second of all i'm in Texas and you can't toss me from Pennsy. schlep.
No cheater. Sometimes you need to go deep into the bag of tricks..Have Never seen an umpire refer to the rule you just brought up.

By the way Texas induced a balk last night regardless of your rules..

Roy,

How did Texas induce the balk?

If a pitcher doesn't do his pre-pitch routine correctly, you may be able to induce a balk through a false steal.

piaa ump,

Where did he say he was trying to cheat?

First of all dont cheat.... ands this is cheating plain and simple. This is not going into the bag of tricks, there are plenty of trick plays, dekes and strategies that are legal. This is cheating....and the NFHS rule book is clear on this. If you do it you are a cheater and you are to be ejected.

The fact that you have never seen the rule or heard it called by an umpire does not make it any less valid.

Using your logic, would it be ok to fake a BESR stamp on an illegal bat? Is it ok to use -7 oz bat in a game?...........

As far as the NCAA goes, they have the rule as well, enforcement is up to the umpires. If Texas did this then they didnt win the game, they stole it.

Hey piaa_ump, help me out here. Am I right in thinking that if the runner on 3rd base acts like he is stealing home in the middle of the pitcher's wind-up and you as the umpire determined that the coach told him to do that to specifically induce a balk that you are going to eject those two???

this is just a guess

with the pitcher in the stretch, the runner breaks for home before/while the hands are coming set - most often pitcher won't disengage the rubber and will just deliver the ball home (quick pitch) without coming set - BALK

usually for it to work ya approch the base ump several pitches before and plant a "heads up" seed so as not to surprise him

No, that action by the player is within the allowable and legal acts.

Examples of illegal acts, an offensive coach or player yelling "he's going"....a coach running from the coaching box towards home (actually saw this one, he was ejected)

quote:

Reply

good..what i was looking for.. figured most run it like an early steal.
Umpires

Why is your first reaction to eject? Seems a bit extreme.

The Rule book specifies the penalty, we do not have a lesser penalty to enforce. If you do this the penalty is ejection.

i'd have to whip you after the game.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
No, that action by the player is within the allowable and legal acts.

Examples of illegal acts, an offensive coach or player yelling "he's going"....a coach running from the coaching box towards home (actually saw this one, he was ejected)

Ump,

Please show me where he said anything about yelling anything? Nothing in Roy Hobbs' initial post said anything about cheating.

Go get your seeing eye dog to read the posts for you. HAHA just kidding!

i was joking by the way Mr. umpire...lol.

thanks redbird..
exactly. Just wanted to know more.

Funny

Roy,

How did Texas induce a balk?

we had a game..I just heard that is how they won this morning on sports talk radio..They do it often.

"Peoples, who was pinch-running for Van Hook, faked a steal of home to cause a balk to score the go-ahead run"

fake steal..........perfectly legal.

The rule book doesn't specify a lesser penalty but it is within your power being the umpire to make a judgement to tell the idiot coach to stop being bush league. That attitude that you are displaying is what gives umpires a bad name.

PIAA is correct about the rule...usually seen it apply to verbal acts such as calling Time, directly referring to the pitcher,etc.

Fake steal attempts, bluffs are not illegal to the best of my knowledge. Basically part of the game. While clapping by a baserunner may not be illegal, it's bush and defenses have adequate means to police this type of stuff.

The rule is a good one because at higher levels,the pitcher does have a weapon against these tactics. It is called a baseball in his hand. The next batter better not dig in.

Saw a college pitcher intentionally nail a 3rd base coach once for some things he was trying to do to induce a balk. Yes, it was intentional because I was the catcher and called it during a timeout. I also gave a pretty direct message to the batter to relay to his coach. Were my actions illegal? Probably...but so were the knockdown pitches I called after one of our hitters had been plunked.

In my view, coaches trying to induce a balk by their own actions/comments don't believe their team can win straightup.

Cliff is famous for alot of things...including his team's actions after losing in the CWS last year. Just because a college coach does something, thhat doesn't always make it good baseball. JMHO

Your saying that if a player is working on his jump on the bases and one time guesses wrong, leaves a little early and then puts on the brakes, causing the pitcher to balk, that he can be ejected from a game? That sounds a little over the top to me. Why do we also practice first and third plays where the player on first leaves early, to get into a hot box and score the run from third? Is this cheating? If I ever got tossed from a game for this reason, I would definitley go out with a fight! It's not cheating, it's part of the game. If your pitcher isn't shaking in his pants with guys on base, he shouldn't balk.

Coachguru,
Maybe at a younger level you might be right, and there is a group of umpires who believe in what is called "preventitive umpiring". Which is basically doing what you suggest and that is going to a coach and giving him advice on how to coach his game (bush league or otherwise).

But at the higher levels of baseball, you will not find many coaches who want to get advice from an Umpire. Coaches coach, Umpires umpire. Its not my place to offer advice.

If there was a lesser penalty (such as restriction to the dugout) then I would enforce it, but there isnt. The attitude I display is fair and consistent.

Chief,
Go back and read the thread again......fake steals are legal....

S. Abrams,

Does your picking off a coach fall into the category of good baseball?

Fake steal would have to be a judgement call. Who is to say that the runner just got a bad jump and stopped or that the runner guessed wrong and left early? You always hear that if your attempting to steal a base and get a bad jump, you stop. Leaving to early is considered a bad jump, so you stop...pitcher balks, that's his fault. Same thing with runners on 1st and 3rd with 2 out. If stealing, you don't want the guy from first to run into the tag so he is to stop if he sees he's being thrown out and get into the hot box to try and score the run. Is this cheating? You seem to have the power trip that many umpires do and thats why you guys get the bad name.

quote:

But at the higher levels of baseball, you will not find many coaches who want to get advice from an Umpire. Coaches coach, Umpires umpire. Its not my place to offer advice.

I agree with the above statement fully. I was not suggesting advising him so much as warning him once. I've seen a lot of baseball, college and high school and have never heard of a coach being ejected for what you are talking about so I think you are being extreme.

I agree with Abrams take on the situation except that Cliff no longer coaches Texas it is Augie now.

Chief42....., again fake steals are legal, and no it isnt a judgement call. A runners mistake or jump that causes a balk is not what I am talking about. We are not talking about legal dekes or fakes or simple baserunning mistakes.

Neither of your examples are cheating.... they are just baseball... if you will reread this thread you will see that the actions being discussed are deliberate actions to cause a pitcher to balk and the penalty for doing it.

If enforcing the rules by being fair and consitent is being on a power trip then I guess I've been guilty for the past 20 years. If standing up for fair play and good sportsmanship give me a bad name then Im guilty again...

But I'll ask you a question....if your pitcher is set and a player from the offensive bench yells "he's going"...and your pitcher balks....do you want me to enforce this rule as written?

Im truly interested in your opinion.

yes....Augie. The all-time winning coach..Not far behind is Gus. I never intended it to be taken as the Coach causing a balk..We can beat people straight up by the way..
Top 10 last couple years..

he better not balk.

Coachguru,
I know you think Im being extreme, and I appreciate your point, but the rule does not give me the option of warning. If I did just warn a coach for this infraction, I have opened this game for protest for misapplying a penalty for a rule violation.

Redbird,
Was picking off the coach good baseball? Probably not; hardnosed probably. It sure shut him up. The guy was jerk as a player and had a rep for stuff like this. The message I sent back to their bench (editted) was essentially that I've got a headcase for a pitcher with a 90+ fastball and we can play these games all day or we can play baseball, it was up to them.
Did we hunt after hitters?No, of course not. But if one of our guys got plunked after a homerun, I was going to defend our hitters.

Coachguru, sorry about the confusion. When I was typing that, something didn't seem right referring to Cliff. Still think Texas was offbase after the CWS.

Alot has been said about this rule and how it might effect steals,etc. Never saw it applied that way, only over verbal stuff and stepping out of the batters box calling Time during the pitcher's delivery. Through Legion and college ball, maybe saw it called 2-3 times.

piaa....I totally agree with the verbal situation. Maybe I don't totally understand what your saying about the cause when being on the bases, but I still don't think you can throw someone out of a game for trying to deceive the pitcher by your actions on the base. Guys are always bouncing around or twitching to get into the pitchers head and what I would assume, maybe cause him to balk. It doesn't just happen in high school ball but also in the big leagues. If I have misunderstood you, I appologize.

How about the time I was coaching 3B with a runner on 3B. I asked the pitcher if I could see the ball. He threw it to me. I let it roll.

Abrams, don't be sorry I agree with everything you have posted.

piaa_ump, how many people have you ejected for this in your 20 years?

Abrams,

I'm not saying I disagree with you...

I forgot to answer your question. No I would not expect you to make that call b/c I had never heard of it. Now that I have I still wouldn't expect to see it enforced.

Over the years I have accumulated a very low amount of ejections. I have never ejected anyone for this violation. But I would if I was convinced it was deliberate.

I was on a crew where a coach was ejected for it. He simulated a steal of home from the coaches box.

teach, and that 4th grader pitcher ya tricked probably got ribed about his mental lapse on the playground for weeks -

A good way to get a balk is with first and third. The runner on first breaks when the pitcher comes set. The pitcher probably won't step off. Balk! The run scores.

In the years I coached never had an opponent coach do some of the things described above. has the game changed that much?