Quick question.. how high does the ball have to be to be "infield fly?"
Here is a MLB game where it comes into question.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9264765
And do you agree with the call made? Why or why not?
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quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Quick question.. how high does the ball have to be to be "infield fly?"
Here is a MLB game where it comes into question.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9264765
And do you agree with the call made? Why or why not?
1. Higher than this.
2. Not one of four MLB umpires thought it was an infield fly and I agree with their judgment.
It's really a judgement call. OBR's definition of infield fly follows:
An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt)
which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first,
second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any
outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the
purpose of this rule.
When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall
immediately declare “Infield Fly” for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the
baselines, the umpire shall declare “Infield Fly, if Fair.”
The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or
retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes
a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.
If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul
before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to
the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an
Infield Fly.
An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt)
which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first,
second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any
outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the
purpose of this rule.
When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall
immediately declare “Infield Fly” for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the
baselines, the umpire shall declare “Infield Fly, if Fair.”
The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or
retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes
a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.
If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul
before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to
the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an
Infield Fly.
Per Jimmy's comment, I can't see how you could possibly call INFR on that play. It bounced in front of the infielder.
I'm a rules guy and not an umpire, but no way that's an INFR.
I'm a rules guy and not an umpire, but no way that's an INFR.
It doesn't matter anyway. According to MLB rules an infield fly is called entirely at the discresion of the umpire. The ump is under no obligation to call it. It isn't automatic under any circumstance. Even if the ball is popped straight up it is entirely up to the umpire to call it.
No call, no infield fly. The manager should know that. It is not an appealable play.
No call, no infield fly. The manager should know that. It is not an appealable play.
quote:Originally posted by Wklink:
It doesn't matter anyway. According to MLB rules an infield fly is called entirely at the discresion of the umpire. The ump is under no obligation to call it. It isn't automatic under any circumstance. Even if the ball is popped straight up it is entirely up to the umpire to call it.
No call, no infield fly. The manager should know that. It is not an appealable play.
Not true. In this case, the umps ruled it was not an infield fly, but it is certainly possible to have an undeclared infield fly.
Yes, in this case it wasn't an infield fly. That is what the umpire said and he was correct. What I am saying is the coaching staff had no right to come out and demand that it be called an infield fly.
For the rule to be in effect an umpire has to call it. It isn't up for review afterwards. If an umpire feels that the ball cannot be caught reasonably he can refrain from calling it. There is no appeal on such a call. Either the umpire calls infield fly or he doesn't.
So, even if the ball is popped straight up, if no umpire signals infield fly then the ball is live, even if the play obviously should have such a call.
For the rule to be in effect an umpire has to call it. It isn't up for review afterwards. If an umpire feels that the ball cannot be caught reasonably he can refrain from calling it. There is no appeal on such a call. Either the umpire calls infield fly or he doesn't.
So, even if the ball is popped straight up, if no umpire signals infield fly then the ball is live, even if the play obviously should have such a call.
"So, even if the ball is popped straight up, if no umpire signals infield fly then the ball is live, even if the play obviously should have such a call".
Sorry, Wklink, even I know this statement is not entirely true. While the ball is still live, it would be an 'infield fly', even if no ump signaled it.
Sorry, Wklink, even I know this statement is not entirely true. While the ball is still live, it would be an 'infield fly', even if no ump signaled it.
That's semantics. Pop Up, infield fly are basically the same thing.
The rule is that for the batter to be called out automatically the umpire has to call the infield fly rule. If he doesn't then it is the same as a popup or 'infield fly' on the infield with no one on or with someone on second base with first base empty.
If the ump doesn't call infield fly rule then the batter is still a live runner and if the ball drops the guy on 2nd still can be forced out at 3rd base. There is no automatic expectation that just because the ball is hit high into the air, in fair territory, in the infield, with runners on 1st and second, that the batter is automatically out. It isn't automatic.
The rule is that for the batter to be called out automatically the umpire has to call the infield fly rule. If he doesn't then it is the same as a popup or 'infield fly' on the infield with no one on or with someone on second base with first base empty.
If the ump doesn't call infield fly rule then the batter is still a live runner and if the ball drops the guy on 2nd still can be forced out at 3rd base. There is no automatic expectation that just because the ball is hit high into the air, in fair territory, in the infield, with runners on 1st and second, that the batter is automatically out. It isn't automatic.
Wklink,
It isn't "semantics". From the FED Casebook: (I've bolded the significant point.)
7.4.1 SITUATION G: With R1 on second and R2 on first and one out, B4 hits a high fly to second base which could have been caught by F4. Neither umpire declares “infield fly.” F4 unintentionally drops the ball but picks it up and tags R2 who is off the base. RULING: The half-inning is over as R2’s out is the third out. The infield fly out for the second out holds even though it was not declared. The situation determines the out, not the declaration. The umpires should always declare “Infield Fly, If Fair” to lessen any confusion.
It isn't "semantics". From the FED Casebook: (I've bolded the significant point.)
7.4.1 SITUATION G: With R1 on second and R2 on first and one out, B4 hits a high fly to second base which could have been caught by F4. Neither umpire declares “infield fly.” F4 unintentionally drops the ball but picks it up and tags R2 who is off the base. RULING: The half-inning is over as R2’s out is the third out. The infield fly out for the second out holds even though it was not declared. The situation determines the out, not the declaration. The umpires should always declare “Infield Fly, If Fair” to lessen any confusion.
The undeclared infield fly is one of the trickiest situations in baseball. Did the umpires intentionally not declare it or did they just forget? It can be a no-win situation for the baserunners. It would be nice if there was some kind of signal/verbal indication to clarify the situation.
From the offense's perspective, if you have runners in scoring position with less than two outs and pop-up, you've pretty much earned any insuing chaos.
The high pop-ups are easy because if it drops and people start getting forced out at various bases, it would seem order could be restored with a post-play conference.
Where it gets tricky are on the loopers and low line drives and subsequent 'accidental' missplay.
The high pop-ups are easy because if it drops and people start getting forced out at various bases, it would seem order could be restored with a post-play conference.
Where it gets tricky are on the loopers and low line drives and subsequent 'accidental' missplay.
I had a play similar to this last week. IFR in effect and the batter hits a soft liner to the left of F4. I was PU and by the time I realized where the ball was coming down it was kinda too late to call IF. F4 caught the fly on the run and runners held so it didn't affect the play. Of course this was a two man system and neither of us called IF but could have. Could this be what happened in the OP?
quote:Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
I had a play similar to this last week. IFR in effect and the batter hits a soft liner to the left of F4.
A soft liner is not an infield fly.
quote:I was PU and by the time I realized where the ball was coming down it was kinda too late to call IF.
It wasn't too late to call it, but it's a good thing you didn't.
quote:F4 caught the fly on the run and runners held so it didn't affect the play. Of course this was a two man system and neither of us called IF but could have. Could this be what happened in the OP?
F4 catching the ball on the run is another reason it wasn't an infield fly.
Dash, You are 100% correct. I wouldn't have called this an IF either but did hear someone from the offensive dugout wondering out loud if it was an IF but they didn't press the issue. It seems like this is pretty much what happened in the OP and the OM was just plain wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Quick question.. how high does the ball have to be to be "infield fly?"
Here is a MLB game where it comes into question.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9264765
And do you agree with the call made? Why or why not?
When I am teaching new guys this question always comes up. My answer is if the fielder could make a step or two either way to get under it then it's probably high enough. If it gets to him and he couldn't have caught it if he wasn't right in front of it then it isn't. Obviuosly there is more to it than that but it is a basis.
quote:Originally posted by JMoff:
Per Jimmy's comment, I can't see how you could possibly call INFR on that play. It bounced in front of the infielder. It bounced in front of the infielder.
I'm a rules guy and not an umpire, but no way that's an INFR.
Um...you do know WHY there is an IFR in the first place, right? I hear what all of you are saying...but...it is VERY OBVIOUS that what the 2nd baseman did VERY INTENTIONALLY was to let it drop ON PURPOSE for the expressed purpose of turning a double play. That is the very reason we have an IFR in the first place.
I say, if it is high enough for the IF to make this choice and execute it with moderate effort it would be IFR...IF we apply the rules in the context of the reason they were created. Look at 1:20 on the video -- that ball was higher than I think some of you may realize.
quote:Originally posted by brookspw:
Um...you do know WHY there is an IFR in the first place, right? I hear what all of you are saying...but...it is VERY OBVIOUS that what the 2nd baseman did VERY INTENTIONALLY was to let it drop ON PURPOSE for the expressed purpose of turning a double play. That is the very reason we have an IFR in the first place.
I say, if it is high enough for the IF to make this choice and execute it with moderate effort it would be IFR...IF we apply the rules in the context of the reason they were created. Look at 1:20 on the video -- that ball was higher than I think some of you may realize.
It's more about the trajectory of the ball. It is a soft liner. If it had more power behind it, the hit would be a line drive and not a high fly ball. Same here only it didn't have the power behind it.
Even though IFR was put in to protect the offense, it is not designed to protect them from everything they do. This is one of those cases.
No IFR.
It didn't look like an infield fly to me...
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
quote:It didn't look like an infield fly to me...
Just my opinion.
I don't really think it was either. Apparently somebody did though. I just wanted to get an explanation which we have gotten. One or two good ones and one or two that were very elitist.
I thought there was a rule about intentionally dropping the ball as well. Seem to remember something getting called a few years ago, but I don't remember exactly..
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I thought there was a rule about intentionally dropping the ball as well. Seem to remember something getting called a few years ago, but I don't remember exactly..
There is. The fielder cannot touch the ball and then drop it intentionally. If he does, the ball is dead and the out on the batter is still enforced.
This, however, does not apply if the fly ball is ruled to be an IFR. Ball is live and the out on the batter still stands.
MrUmpire is correct. Intentionally dropping a ball is very different than allowing it to drop untouched. There is nothing illegal about letting it drop. An intentionally dropped ball is one that is basically caught but allowed to come loose or directed to the ground. Dead ball unless it is an infield fly.
You cannot intentionally drop a ball in this situation.
However, you can intentionally let a ball drop.
Big difference.
However, you can intentionally let a ball drop.
Big difference.
I have to agree with Brookspw and start by looking at the reason for the rule in the first place. IFR exists specifically to eliminate the double play on a ball that is assumed will be caught by an infielder, but instead is intentionally allowed to fall to the ground. The call is meant to aid the offensive team by eliminating the opportunity for a double play on an intentional drop (isn't an intentional drop illegal in FED?). Instead, the out should be called immediately which allows the baserunners to hold their base with no risk of a double play (although they can advance at their own risk).
There is all sorts of discretion that comes into play that makes this hard, and much of it is misunderstood. Is it in the infield (doesn't matter)? Is it easily catchable (matters a little bit)? etc...etc...
I would have argued this play on the grounds that the runners had to hold their base to prevent a double play and that the infield could have caught the ball. The rule was designed to prevent the exact outcome that occurred which is an intentional "drop" to create a double play. Great play by the 2b though!
Whenever I am the 3B coach, I remind my runners that the IFR is in effect...a quick look a the BU with a finger to the cap reminds him too. Tends to keep me out of the situation that the A's find themselves in.
PS: I had a game this year with a pop up to 3B about 10 ft off the line. PU yells "IFR" as he should. The 3B was smart enough to let it drop. The ball bounced to the right and rolled across the line - FOUL BALL! Batter hit a double on the next pitch. He should have just caught the ball!
There is all sorts of discretion that comes into play that makes this hard, and much of it is misunderstood. Is it in the infield (doesn't matter)? Is it easily catchable (matters a little bit)? etc...etc...
I would have argued this play on the grounds that the runners had to hold their base to prevent a double play and that the infield could have caught the ball. The rule was designed to prevent the exact outcome that occurred which is an intentional "drop" to create a double play. Great play by the 2b though!
Whenever I am the 3B coach, I remind my runners that the IFR is in effect...a quick look a the BU with a finger to the cap reminds him too. Tends to keep me out of the situation that the A's find themselves in.
PS: I had a game this year with a pop up to 3B about 10 ft off the line. PU yells "IFR" as he should. The 3B was smart enough to let it drop. The ball bounced to the right and rolled across the line - FOUL BALL! Batter hit a double on the next pitch. He should have just caught the ball!
An IF is not that difficult to understand and call. It is a pop fly that can be caught with ordinary effort. It is not governed by the grass and can't be a linedrive or a bunt. Intentionally dropping an IF keeps the ball live but the BR is still out. Allowing a ball to fall untouched is not illegal.
quote:I thought there was a rule about intentionally dropping the ball as well.
There is such a rule.
With at least first base occupied and less than 2 outs, if an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball, line drive or bunt in flight then the B/R is out and the runner(s) return. It is not an intentional drop however, if the infielder allows the batted ball to fall to the ground before fielding it.