Innings/year for HS age pitcher

I wouldn't get so hung on the IP......I would be more concerned with:

1. Keeping all starts under 95-100 pitches
2. Proper rest and work in between starts

And three days rest / pitching on the fourth doesn't do it for me with a kid HS age.....if we are talking about him getting into the 70 or above pitch range....

I agree. I think it is more important that you be concerned with him getting the proper amount of rest in between starts. Personally, 3 days of rest is not enough for me. I like to get at least 4 and if possible, five.

LOW337,

I totally disagree. I believe many have bought into the "high pitch-count" theory without any real empirical data to back it up. I think the number of innings pitched in a year is an important factor, in more ways than one.

For example, if you dug a ditch for four hours in one day, and then rested adequately, I believe you'd be better off physically than a guy who dug a ditch three hours a day, with four days' rest in between, 365 days a year.

I have a different theory. A good pitch-count limit for a good high school pitcher would be 125, not 100, so long as there were 4 days' rest between starts and the subsequent start did not result in an excess of a combined 200 pitches (in both games). I would further limit the pitcher to a maximum of 7 months of pitching and limit the number of innings to (Age * 10) - 10. So, a 14 year old would be limited to 14 * 10 = 140 - 10 = 130 innings pitched per year.

I would also look at 1) mechanics and adjust innings/pitch-counts downward if poor, 2) physical conditioning (e.g., if the pitcher looks to be tiring, regardless of pitch-counts, pull him.)

I agree with all of the responses so far. It is a huge difference in recovery time from the amount of pitches/start.Less than 80 three days is good;greater than 80 or 90 he will feel "tight" when he is warming up on 3 or 4 days rest. It is easy to see why as you get older a lot of players become pitchers only. Does anyone have any recomendations on a routine/schedule between starts/tourneys ?

To me innings mean nothing because an inning be 10 pitches or 30 pitches---10 innings of 10 pitches is quite different from 10 innings of 30 pitches but it is the same amount of innings


As for in between outings I like the kids throwing every day working up to the next outing

Well I am a firm believer in "you only have so many bullets".....
I would just error on the side of caution.....to me a young pitcher (17 or younger) has no business getting much above 100 pitches in a game.....

Not exactly cruising if you reach that point in seven innings (via deep in counts, BB's, H's)....

Not to mention how stressful some of those innings can be....and by stressful I mean pitching out of a bases loaded jam w/ no outs is much more stressful than a 1-2-3 inning...

If a young man should eventually have the opportunity to play for living or have baseball pay for his way to an education, the risk does not out weigh the reward.....I would just error on the side of caution......common sense is a good thing...

I know what you are saying about pitches thrown being more accurate than innings but in my 4 years of counting pitches it always converts to 15-16 per inning.
TR
Could you please be more specific on what or how much throwing he should do on his days between starts. I know that having a good routine will strengthin and add stamina as well as bring good results.

3up
We like our kids to throw, not pitch, the two days after a long outing, do a Bullpen the third day , throw easy on the 4th day and be set to go on the 5th day

Obviously everything is open to adjustment if the pitching outing was short and non strenuous and a lot depends on the kid

quote:

Well I am a firm believer in "you only have so many bullets".....

IMO to much emphasis is placed on the bullets...The gun needs to be taken care of and maintained, then it may be able to handle more ammo.

Al Rosen once quoted "Arms dont wear out, they rust out"...I think there is truth to this.

TR,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.It makes good sense.
deemax,
I'm glad to hear you say there will be many clips shot if the gun is not abused.Every time I hear that "so many bullet" coment made I start thinking that I messed up and let him pitch way too much when he was younger.Then I would think about players like Clemmons,Musina,and Ryan who have thrown MILLIONS.lol

100% maintain the gun so to speak.......absolutely.....no doubt about it.......didn't even think it would be a question to debate.....take care of your body and don't abuse it....kinda goes without saying......

Throw every day if possible......you bet.....throw a side on day 2 if using a five man....throw side on day 3 if pitching on the sixth day.....along with throwing long, playing catch every day....flat ground every day if possible.....pfp once a week, picks once a week.....lift at least once a week, some type of conditioning 5-6 times a week.....etc........

All I was saying is I would pay more attention to number of pitches than innings pitched.......common sense.....be cautious.....that is all....

Just saying I would error on the side of caution......seen too many young kids abused.....

i would add running to the routine. after a game run some poles, between starts run some more. pitching is leg and core as much as arm. running after a game flushes the blood from those torn muscles and can/will limit any soreness. just my opinion though.

Thanks for the advice guys.I wasn't a pitcher back in the day and want to know as much I can to help my son reach his goals.I'm sure he knows more than I do at this point but I still need to watch his back. We leave for Atlanta tomorrow AM.for the 16u & 15u WWBA events the next two weeks.He is slated to start on Tues. or Wed. for the Richmond Braves.See ya'll in 2 weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
i would add running to the routine. after a game run some poles, between starts run some more. pitching is leg and core as much as arm. running after a game flushes the blood from those torn muscles and can/will limit any soreness. just my opinion though.

I agree on the running part, but not foul poles. Thirty to Sixty yard dashes, skipping rope, running stairs, are much better for pitchers in my opinion. Fast twitch muscles need to be trained. If you run enough of them, you will get your cardio.

You don't agree on running poles after an outing or as normal conditioning?

20dad....Conditioning is running.......

Running....mixing up sprint and distance work......basically any type of cardio to move blood....reduce soreness.....increase resilience (sp?).....

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
You don't agree on running poles after an outing or as normal conditioning?

Nope! I think skipping rope is much more beneficial than running of any kind, but sprints are preferable to distance running. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
Well I am a firm believer in "you only have so many bullets".....
I would just error on the side of caution.....to me a young pitcher (17 or younger) has no business getting much above 100 pitches in a game.....

Not exactly cruising if you reach that point in seven innings (via deep in counts, BB's, H's)....

Not to mention how stressful some of those innings can be....and by stressful I mean pitching out of a bases loaded jam w/ no outs is much more stressful than a 1-2-3 inning...

If a young man should eventually have the opportunity to play for living or have baseball pay for his way to an education, the risk does not out weigh the reward.....I would just error on the side of caution......common sense is a good thing...

I agree totally! One other thing, is throwing more than 20 pitches in an inning. Any pitch over 20 can cause damage to a young arm.

Throwing overhand period can cause damage to a young arm / old arm / any arm.......

What that magic number is can be up for debate...has he been getting regualr work in games or on the side??...What has been his inning/pitch counts for the past five days?????...If not in game then has he been throwing any sides/sim games etc...?????....I don't think there is magic number, but if a kid is up to 30 or more pitches in an inning, he certainly isn't getting it done......

Common sense will do just fine......And the kid will let you know how he feels by his stuff..........the other team will let him know how good his stuff is that day as well.....

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
i would add running to the routine. after a game run some poles, between starts run some more. pitching is leg and core as much as arm. running after a game flushes the blood from those torn muscles and can/will limit any soreness. just my opinion though.

I agree on the running part, but not foul poles. Thirty to Sixty yard dashes, skipping rope, running stairs, are much better for pitchers in my opinion. Fast twitch muscles need to be trained. If you run enough of them, you will get your cardio.

Need to be clear on the purpose of the running. Running after a game is for arm care. Light jogging (e.g. poles) just to get the blood flowing without taxing the arm is appropriate. On off days, running is for conditioning and should include more explosive forms of running like sprinting.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I agree totally! One other thing, is throwing more than 20 pitches in an inning. Any pitch over 20 can cause damage to a young arm.

While I do believe in pitch counts in terms of a game, I am not aware of any scientific basis for a 20-pitch inning limit.

You mean you haven't written a report on it yet?

if you run the count full to four guys,walk one 3 k's = 24 pitches. not that bad an inning stat wise.would you yank him?

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
if you run the count full to four guys,walk one 3 k's = 24 pitches. not that bad an inning stat wise.would you yank him?

Most kids, yes! The three strike outs mean nothing to me. I'd much rather have a one pitch grounder or fly out than a strike out. I think too many kids, coaches, and parents focus on strike outs and not just outs. 10 pitches or under per inning is the goal I set for my pitchers. If they are in the 15 to 20 pitch count per inning, I have my bull pen ready. Now if one or two batters fouls off a few I wouldn't be as concerned.

Need to be clear on the purpose of the running. Running after a game is for arm care. Light jogging (e.g. poles) just to get the blood flowing without taxing the arm is appropriate. On off days, running is for conditioning and should include more explosive forms of running like sprinting.[/QUOTE]



I agree, but you don't think skipping rope will accomplish that (the after game arm care)? Just asking for your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
if you run the count full to four guys,walk one 3 k's = 24 pitches. not that bad an inning stat wise.would you yank him?

Remember, If Lil' Jhonny gets to 21 pitches in the first inning there is a protocol you should follow.

1. Get him out of the game
2. Put on his saftey helmet
3. Submerge him into an ice bath for 11 minutes
4. Wrap him in bubble wrap
5. Schedule a visit with Frank Jobe
6. Return him to his Bubble until flu season is over.

20dad, I have never seen a coach at any level pull a pitcher because he hit the 20 pitch mark for an inning...ever. I highly doubt that I ever will.

IMO if pitchers of any age are not conditioned well enough to endure a 25 pitch inning here and there they shouldnt be on the mound.

"Arms dont wear out, they rust out" -Al Rosen

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
if you run the count full to four guys,walk one 3 k's = 24 pitches. not that bad an inning stat wise.would you yank him?

Remember, If Lil' Jhonny gets to 21 pitches in the first inning there is a protocol you should follow.

1. Get him out of the game
2. Put on his saftey helmet
3. Submerge him into an ice bath for 11 minutes
4. Wrap him in bubble wrap
5. Schedule a visit with Frank Jobe
6. Return him to his Bubble until flu season is over.

20dad, I have never seen a coach at any level pull a pitcher because he hit the 20 pitch mark for an inning...ever. I highly doubt that I ever will.

IMO if pitchers of any age are not conditioned well enough to endure a 25 pitch inning here and there they shouldnt be on the mound.

"Arms dont wear out, they rust out" -Al Rosen

The reason I brought up the 20 pitch inning was because many kids aren't conditioned enough to handle a 25 pitch inning. I did not say it was a concrete rule for ALL pitchers. Like LOW said, "common sense will do just fine." I would just say that when a kid gets to 20 pitches in an inning, watch for signs of arm fatigue and act accordingly. I'm saying this to PARENTS especially, because SOME coaches will leave a kid out there until the KID says he's done. We are the adults and we should help make the IMPORTANT decisions concerning our children's futures. But hey, that's JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Need to be clear on the purpose of the running. Running after a game is for arm care. Light jogging (e.g. poles) just to get the blood flowing without taxing the arm is appropriate. On off days, running is for conditioning and should include more explosive forms of running like sprinting.

I agree, but you don't think skipping rope will accomplish that (the after game arm care)? Just asking for your opinion.

You seemed to be indicating that you could get your "arm care cardio" in while also working on explosiveness training. My point was that after a game you should only do the "arm care cardio". You've worked your arm into a deficit condition and it needs to be allowed to recover from that deficit. Save the explosiveness training for an off day.

mm

quote:

The reason I brought up the 20 pitch inning was because many kids aren't conditioned enough to handle a 25 pitch inning.

Then they have no business throwing in a competitive game.

Throw more.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Need to be clear on the purpose of the running. Running after a game is for arm care. Light jogging (e.g. poles) just to get the blood flowing without taxing the arm is appropriate. On off days, running is for conditioning and should include more explosive forms of running like sprinting.

I agree, but you don't think skipping rope will accomplish that (the after game arm care)? Just asking for your opinion.

You seemed to be indicating that you could get your "arm care cardio" in while also working on explosiveness training. My point was that after a game you should only do the "arm care cardio". You've worked your arm into a deficit condition and it needs to be allowed to recover from that deficit. Save the explosiveness training for an off day.

Okay! Thanks for the reply!

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
mm

quote:

The reason I brought up the 20 pitch inning was because many kids aren't conditioned enough to handle a 25 pitch inning.

Then they have no business throwing in a competitive game.

Throw more.

Agreed!