is 180 pitches too much?

Yes way too much. Kids are not trained to throw that many pitches. A high school kid should never throw over 100 pitches. I currently coach in professional baseball and the highest we have our pitchers go is 115 and that is not until end of July after 6 months of throwing every day.

Yea but he did beat Driscoll so that was pretty cool!

does winning really justify the pitch count? i would bet that someone else on their bench could have thrown pitches at least as well as someoneone that was over 150 pitches. If he had previous high pitch counts he can at least remember his win while sitting on the bench recovering, perhaps from surgery!
oh yeah, but he won!

Let's see. 150 in the game. The kid probably threw another 50 in the bullpen warming up. Add to that another 30-35 warm up pitches inbetween innings. Starting to sound even worse.

Whta's next? Three days rest and they throw him out there again? I would be making a trip to the AD...

No wonder the kids have the soft mentality today---Daddy says " I would be making a trip to the AD"


Not condoning the pitch count at all but daddy running to the AD is not the way to go about it. By the way who kept the pitch count?

TR

Say what you want but no one should be throwing 150 pitches in the name of "The kids today do not throw enough!!!"

My arm was shot at 19. I remember what the Dr. told me how the tendons in my arm looked like after opening me up. Coaches threw me and every other pitcher with any talent all the time in the name of winning- we had no pitch counts. You started every M/F. If you think that kids don't throw enough than why don't we go back to that system? Maybe pitch counts got put in place to protect kids from morons who don't know what they are doing.

I am commenting on whether a kid should throw 150, not whether or not he did. Read the book, "Saving the Pitcher."

Wake up.

TR, sorry, but I can't agree with you. This is year 2009, and there is so much information that has been published about how pitch counts and excessive innings are a precursor to shoulder/elbow surgery. A coach would have to be a moron to either ignore these well known facts, or feel that he knows better than the folks at ASMI, or Dr. Andrews directly.

Why does it matter who kept the pitch count? One guy who must not have is the head coach. If you think that a parent bringing this to the attention of an AD will make a player "soft" I cannot agree. Is it better to ignore the situation and run the very real risk of injury to your son? JMO.

Guys---can you read ???

I said I do not condone the pitch count----what I DO NOT condone is daddy running to the AD---cmon dad grow up


And who kept the pitch count is critical---was it really that many pitches?

Forget running to the AD, and AD worth his weight would be aware of a ridiculous move like this and discipline the coach himself.

Absolutely ridiculous!

Run to the AD, run to the coach who cares?

Anyone who knows baseball knows that pitch counts such as this are just not acceptable no matter if it is 130, 150 or 180 pitches. It is total BS and cannot be defended.

Just ask yourself this, if this were in the classroom, would a teacher be able to get by with physical abuse such as this or something similar? I think not. School administration would become involved with it then wouldn't they? What's the difference really? I don't see any except for the setting of the situation.

I will NEVER grow up when the health & welfare of my family is on the line. NEVER.

If you think my kids are soft, you obviously don't know them.

I'm oughta here - Sox game!

Enjoy the game !!!!

TrHit

I agree that kids do not throw enough today, but you have lost my allegiance to your argument if you will defend 180 pitches in a game.

I would advocate frequency of throwing, and even less icing and treatment, but this many pitches is out of line--you are wrong sir.

TR said:

quote:

Posted May 23, 2009 04:05 PM Hide Post
Guys---can you read ???

I said I do not condone the pitch count----what I DO NOT condone is daddy running to the AD---cmon dad grow up

I still don't get TR's point. Is he saying that nothing should be said to anyone when this type of player abuse/misuse occurs and the parents should just let it slide? I don't get it. And who cares who is keeping the pitch count? What difference does it make even if it is off a few pitches? That statement makes no sense and has nothing to do with the point in question.

Did the big guy come back and throw in the regional championship today? I see that we lost so I guess not. And now if a teacher had a student throw 180 pitches in a classroom with kids and windows and desks around that would be way dangerous not a good idea.

My best guess is that TR gets irritated by threads like this.
Threads based on a statement that is unproven. A thread where people jump on the band wagon about some poor kid abused by his coach and parents. Maybe after coaching all these years he gets irritated by this type of thread. Just a guess.

You guys need to read better---I need not go further


And stop assumimg what is my mind when I post--none of you have any idea what I am thinking.

****le


one hint---do not guess

secondly--what irritates me are parents who run to some authority figure when things don't satisfy their want and needs---AND THEN LET US SUE !!!!

TR,
I don't wish to jump to conclusions here. You've stated that it's too many pitches, and also that parents shouldn't run to some authority figure.

How do you think this should be handled? Should the AD or some authority figure/coaches boss be informed of the incident? If so, who should do the informing?

I'm not trying to bait you here, I am genuinely trying to understand how you see a solution to this coming about.

.

Oh c'mon TR. I know exactly what you're thinking...

"THE KIDS TODAY DO NOT THROW ENOUGH !!!!!"

Wood


You sell lumber correct?

My Mother in Law has a boyfirend who is also a lumber salesman and he has the same WOODY sense of humor


I am sorry but it gets tiring after a short time

.

Welcome to Illinois TR.

A lumber salesman with the same sense of humor? In this sour market? God bless him! Must be something in the xylem we eat...or perhaps the phloem.

Tired? No need to apologize. Just take a shot of this...

WOODY

Just relax---I do not need geritol--If I took that can I pass the NCAA drug test ?

Like I said- a wood salesman is a wood salesman


We used to have a bathroom accessory salesman whowould vist us every month---my girl at the front desk had orders to ask him if he had new "material"


Special spot in my heart goes to all construction salesmen --- they are sure different

.

Me relax? I make Perry Como look like a whirling dervish!

Your post was well stated TR.

Thanks for the compliment concerning construction salesmen. We are different.


And with inspiration from you TR, I'll close with this...

"THE CUSTOMERS TODAY DO NOT BUY ENOUGH !!!!!"

quote:

And with inspiration from you TR, I'll close with this...
"THE CUSTOMERS TODAY DO NOT BUY ENOUGH !!!!!"

Now THAT was funny!

I'm in late on this one - but in my opinion that is abuse akin to sending a kid with a concussion back into a football game. The coach should be either fired or reprimanded immediately. It doesn't matter that the kid said he "wanted to pitch" or "felt fine" - these are just cowardly excuses for coaches who can't bear making the right call on behalf of the kid. Every pitch after about 110 is exponentially mroe dangerous than the one before -- and young arms are FAR MORE proned to overuse injuries than mature arms -- and no professional team in existence would allow a mature arm to throw like that - it's just inexcusable.

Interesting when you look at the Campbellville U pitcher who threw 21 inns in 24 hrs.

Also interesting comparing a concussion to a pitcher throwing 180 pitches--

Brain injuries can kill you

TR,

I don't think that he is talking about the compairson of the severity of the injury. I think his point was regarding a coach knowingly putting an athlete in harms way in such a manner that could have a detrimental effect on that athlete's future. This is something that should never, under any circumstances, be done.

Thanks hopperhop - that's exactly what I meant. Obviously a concussion is a far more serious injury because it can be life threatening. But in baseball terms - every pitch after about 110 carries a greater risk of ending a promising career. There is FAR TOO MUCH research available for High School coaches to pretend to be unaware of the danger. I'm just tired of coaches using the justification, "Well I asked him, and he said he could go." Most every kid who pitches does so because he loves to throw -- and most have to be dragged off the mound. So be a coach and tell him when he is done.

One problem with research---not all of it is done by competent people

So throwing over 110 pitches can give one a concussion?

Pitch count is just a number and doesn't always tell the truth. I do agree that 180 pitches is way to much ,but differnet variables go into how many pitches a kid should be able to throw.

- How long of rest does he have in between innings. Is he getting good time or is his team going 1-2-3 every inning.

-Weather conditions and the type of game. Is he going deep in counts and having to make a lot of tough pitches?

- You can tell if the players arm is down by his velcity, location, and his actions on the mound not just a number.

The players condition and arm care he does in the off season has to do with how long he should be able to go. Check out what Nolan Ryan is doing with teh rangers now. He is throwing away the pitch count. Doesn't even keep track of it now and lets the body tell him when he should come out instead of a overrated number.

I'll go back to the original post:

quote:

I read an article in yesterdays tribune that a high school player, in a game against driscoll was allowed to throw 180 pitches. the final score was 15-14. this pitchers' team was down by 7 runs (if memory serves me).

I can maybe understand, if a kid is strong and effective, why the coach would keep a kid in. This kid had given up 14 runs. He could not have been that good. He could not have been that strong. I have no idea what this coach was thinking.

Don't get me wrong, 180 game pitches is rediculous regardless of whether he was effective or not, but to give up that many runs and be left in for that long? I don't get it.

I'll go back to what TR said earlier. Who was counting pitches. I have heard some on the board talk about ALL pitches counting toward the total. That would include bullpen and warmups. If that is the case, his actual pitch count would be far less. If he threw 8 warmups per inning (56) and 40 in the bull pen, that would be 96 warm-ups bringing his actual pitch count down to 84. Kind of doubt that though going 7 innings giving up 14 runs.

Parents should have said something.

Another aspect

You say he gave up 14 runs---how many were earned/

How many errors did the team make behind him ?

Earned, unearned, 0 errors or 50 errors, I still don't get how any of those numbers, no matter what they are, would justify allowing the pitcher to go to such a high pitch count if that was indeed the case as stated.

if you have a team making alot of errors behind you, and you have to make more pitches, then yes it does matter

Of course it makes a difference in the number of pitches that a pitcher will have to make but I still do not see how that would justify keeping him in beyond a reasonable pitch count.

There is absolutely no justification to throw a kid that much. Put the #24 kid on the squad out there and give him the chance, oh ya, it's about winning a stupid high school game that no one is going to remember 5 years from now.