Is A Curveball A Must?

quote:

Originally posted by Nate Barnett:
I was watching Cliff Lee's last outing. Dominating. He didn't throw a single curveball until the sixth inning of his complete game. Just relied on his fastball, two seam, and cutter against Big League hitters.

This then begs the question, is a curveball a must to teach to young pitchers? I've got some thoughts, but I'd like to hear what you all think.

I think almost inevitably a young pitcher needs a breaking ball of some sorts by the time they get into HS competetive ball. This doesn;t meen that all pitchers need to, just a general rule of thumb. The CB is probably one of the easier pitches to teach and control and is why young pitchers learn it. I have seen dominating pitchers just throw a FB and CU at the HS level also.

I always work most with a pitchers fastball and explain to them how to make it move or explain how to locate the moving fastball. The same goes for the CU. Teaching a kid to put a lot of spin on a CU is very hard. They always want to tend to keep the wrist straighter at release rather than whip the wrist hard like the fastball. This is one of the reasons I believe the CU is so hard to properly teach young kids. Too often they think it is a "slooow" pitch and slow down the arm action and don't flick the wrist with authority.

A properly taught CB can be introduced when the pitcher is ready. For some that can be as early as 10-11 and for others when they are 14-16. It doesn't really matter the age so much as a CB is not damaging to an arm if taught right.

I guess I'm not following. He had to throw curves in the last 4 innings to complete the game. He threw 7 curves- 5 were swinging strikes.

I hear that kickball and wiffle ball are outlawed in NY state. I guess breaking balls are next.

The earlier they learn to throw a CU the easier it becomes later on. Same with the 2 seam.

I don't see why it's difficult to teach, the pitch is thrown with same arm action and speed, the grip is what makes the difference and all they need to understand is that grip slows it down. Nothing else. If it's difficult why do so many young pitcher learn at an early age?

Of course if one doesn't know what they are doing that's a whole different issue.

Nate, you bring up a good question, about needing a CB, probably at some point yes, not necessarily at 10-11, like some beleive.

However, Lee did need the CB to get through the game, it just wasn't his dominate pitch.

At the young ages, it is very hard to teach a proper CU to a kid. There is this school of thought at thew youth level that the CU is some loopy lob ball. A CU should be about 10-12% slower than your FB. For a youth throwing 60 mph, his CU should be about 52-54 mph. But, often times you instead see some lob ball at 45-50 mph with slow arm action. At the youth level you very rarely see a kid throw a CU correctly. My son has had both success and failure through the years with the CU. Teaching it to others is difficult because the tendancy to want to slow the arm down is a big mental block for kids. It is hard for them to realize that a little deeper grip has a drastic effect on velocity. IT is by far the hardest of all pitches to master. Even major league pitchers struggle the most with the CU. You hear all the time how a pitcher at that level will give up on the CU for quite some time before attempting it again. They often say they can't find it or command it.It is a hard pitch to learn to throw and control. It is hard to "feel" the ball coming out of the hand. Even top prospects a lot of time will only be said to have a "feel" for it. Not very often young kids have explosive arm and body actions on the CU.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl...ourth?urn=mlb-wp3780

Not if your fast ball looks like this...

I always tell pitchers to get their changeup grip then forget they're throwing a changeup. Mentally and physically you're throwing a fastball.

I wonder if you can just outsmart younger kids when teaching them the changeup. "Hey Johnny, let me show you a new fastball that I think would work really well for you. Grip it like this (show the changeup grip)...alright now just let it rip". Teach them a "new" fastball rather than a changeup. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I always tell pitchers to get their changeup grip then forget they're throwing a changeup. Mentally and physically you're throwing a fastball.

I wonder if you can just outsmart younger kids when teaching them the changeup. "Hey Johnny, let me show you a new fastball that I think would work really well for you. Grip it like this (show the changeup grip)...alright now just let it rip". Teach them a "new" fastball rather than a changeup. Just a thought.

This is how a retired pro pitcher showed son on how to throw the splitfinger for a CU. If you can truly convince a young player to throw it hard like the fastball it's easy to initially teach. The hard part is when they begin to understand what it does and then they have that tendancey to intentionally slow the arm down.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl...ourth?urn=mlb-wp3780

Not if your fast ball looks like this...

How's your player JD?

He is great, just got cleared to pitch again...long story about the pitfalls of JUCO pitching but as you've heard me say a million times..it's desire, he dominated a mens league last summer and got the opportunity to pitch against some great minor league competition (Mixed with some ex-mlb players and some development teams..specifically the Mariners squad out of Cocoa). He's still chasing the dream and I'm still having a blast watching it go down.

Good stuff, jd, I understand the chase to fill the dream, 3 operations now for son, thankfully all minor stuff. Kind of close, yet far, if you know what I mean.

Miss you being around, there have been some discussions here that I know you could jump into and give your opinion, based on your work and relationship with Ellis.

Thank you for the kind words, I drop by here nearly daily, looking for the kids that come by here looking for some help. I just can't seem to get that out of my blood...
We're still giving it a good go over on Lets Talk Pitching..still mostly kids (We have seen an up swing in guys from over seas also) but they feel comfortable and unintimidated and we've had some really great stories...Our kids that do season or career logs can flat make you proud and happy at the state of kids who choose to stay in our art.
CaDad had one that was epic and a classic.

Let's also not forget that Cliff Lee is left-handed, throws fairly hard (not fire, but above MLB average), throws a four-seam, two-seam, a cutter, a great changeup and has the uncanny ability to throw all of these offerings exactly where he wants to. Mix all of the above with the batter's knowledge that he has another pitch in his arsenal, an above average curveball that he can locate with the same precision as his previous pitches, and any batter has trouble.

It is very impressive that he didn't throw the curveball much during the early innings, but I'm sure the fact that the batters knew he had it had some factor in the game.

I got to drop in and do some reading over there.
Looks like DK will be somewhere soon, though he has enjoyed staying in FL for rehab in the warmer weather. But due to injuries, most have been shipped out of extended, so he's getting nudgy.

Stay well and stay in touch.

You know you are always welcome over there.
Good for your boy! Is he still in the Cards organization?

I think maybe it was overlooked that he does throw a CUTTER. Keep in mind that the variance of how a "cutter" is gripped and thrown can vary widely..but it's pretty safe to say to think of a good cutter as a "tight" slider. It's FB spin, with a late break (the good ones anyway).

quote:

Is A Curveball A Must?

Years ago, I probably would have said "yes". Today, I think there are many pitchers like Cliff Lee that only throw a curve ball very infrequently. The reason is it is not his best pitch, nor his out pitch. From what I can tell he uses it as a setup pitch out of the strike zone.

One of the first things my son's college pitching coach did was to work with him to develop a cutter that can go either way depending on which finger is applying pressure. It is a pitch that is effective for him. So, my son has pretty much abandoned the curve ball from the games I've attended. My sense of it is that my son is not unique, and many college pitching coaches are teaching this in lieu of a curve ball IF the curve ball is not a strong pitch. So, I would say "NO" the curve ball is not a must.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Is he still in the Cards organization?

Yes.

fenwaysouth,
Strong agreement with you, it is not a must. There are some ML pitchers that throw devastating CB, but not too many, and by college most better hitters can hit it.
Mine due to his slot can't throw a good cutter so he throws a slider.
The best advice, I was told by several people recently due to this discussion, work with young pitchers on the 4 seam, CU, 2 seam and the CB when necessary and the rest will take care of itself as the pitcher grows and matures.

JMO.