Is HS baseball in trouble?

HS Basball will never be in trouble.

HS competition, at least at the public level is an equalizer like Little league, it's based on school size and talent is mostly equal. Unfortunately where baseball is concerned athletic talent is mostly irrelavant - as baseball is really a skill learned over time. Over the long term winning programs in baseball will always shift to the upper middle class school. Baseball is really an expensive pursuit with the emergence of the large and growing teaching/lessons and showcase business -- a business that realized the skill aspect and has taken it to the bank.

Like most have said, school pride will always make most of the good players play. Some may not, but HS baseball will go on they'll always be someone willing to step up and take the "studs" place who doesn't play.

HS baseball is fine but the showcase business has refined it! The emergence of the business aspect of HS baseball and its filtering down to lower age levels has really improved the baseball players ability. Talent is less necessary than money and desire. Money and desire have elevated the ability to acquire the skill of baseball.

But HS baseball will survive

quote:

Originally posted by mrmom:
Talent is less necessary than money and desire.

Disagree.

I like school ball, my son likes school ball, but you feel like you can't play off season school ball because you have to do the "travel" thing. I am begining to see the "travel" ball programs cutting into the end of the spring high school season. How long before they start playing during the spring?

I know of one kid who was 14 and a freshman. He was playing with a 14U team and missed a couple of school games so he could play with the travel team. When I asked his dad about how the coach liked it, his answer was "he needs us, more than we need him"!

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
We learned to question authority at an early age. By itself, that is not a bad thing. That process has been abused and twisted by parents to "benefit" their child, specifically in terms of high school coaching.

Dad04 - Thats a better way to put it than I did.

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When I asked his dad about how the coach liked it, his answer was "he needs us, more than we need him"!

A very sad lesson to be teaching his son.

I like having a teacher for the coach. Improves the chances that academics will be given the proper emphasis by the coach.

I'd agree that it can be difficult to find experienced coaches for the freshman and JV teams but with patience it can be done. Based on my experience I'd say that kids just out of HS shouldn't be used as head coaches for a frosh or JV team until they've had at least a couple years experience as an assistant.

Justbaseball, you just opened a can worms didn’t you? I love it.

quote:

Nothing stands still. Times change and not necessarily for the worse. It is different and maybe to many better. But I miss the hometown feel I had as a kid...the hometown HS heros. I miss it and I do wonder if its better for the long-term health of the game. I just wonder. Some of my friends involved in HS baseball wonder too.

I don’t like the transformation because much of youth baseball is being reduced to something other than an actual baseball game. We (the baseball society) have glamorized the travel/elite/showcase aspect of youth baseball so much that we are starting to believe youth baseball is NOT an actual game but a period of time to spend money and showcase our son. We have dumped our money into showcases and elite teams and in order to justify our behavior we must focus on that and endorse it. The down side lies in the fact that we cannot “sell” the importance of this “commercialized” baseball unless we reduce high school baseball to what it is or is quickly becoming.
Read what Soxnole says:
HS baseball is not in trouble. It is just not as important as it once was. This is a very natural evolution.
To me that is a signal that it IS in trouble. ---BUT---- I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. I think we have reached a saturation point and hopefully we are beginning to see the vanity in all this commercialization. We have flooded the showcase and elite travel team markets with our money and our players to a point that “elite” is no longer elite and there are so many showcases that coaches cannot attended them all. There are so many elite travel teams that it’s becoming easier to make the elite team than it is to make the HS team. I don’t think the redemption of high school baseball will come by focusing on high school baseball but rather the realization that money cannot buy what you and I are searching for. As you put it... “I miss the hometown feel I had as a kid...the hometown HS heros. I miss it” ....
Fungo

IMHO...Elite teams should be made up of elite players .... and showcases should be showcases ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Justbaseball, you just opened a can worms didn’t you?

Yeah. I kind of thought it might. A tad different than I expected, but very much worth the discussion I think.

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quote:

There are so many elite travel teams that it’s becoming easier to make the elite team than it is to make the HS team.

Right on the button Fungo. Good post.

44

I guess that may be true if you consider "elite" any club that calls itself such. But if you look at the top tier of select clubs, it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Look at the top clubs, often they have only one (perhaps two occasionally) player from the top HS teams in the state.

Great thread...

Since I live in the same community as 044, perhaps it is why I share many of his concerns about the health of community baseball - which in my mind culminates in high school ball.

I think it begins with the erosion of Little League/Pony/etc at the youth level. Because of the emphasis on all stars at the expense of the regular season, youth baseball is becoming too elitist - and is driving kids away from the game at younger and younger ages. Thus the quantity of players who are playing decreases – and the late bloomers are lost.

Add on to that the effects of travel/elite ball which causes players to turn away from the community based programs and towards regional or national programs - and now community ball is suffering on the high end of the talent range.

Fast forward to the high school years – fewer players are coming into the system – and those that arrive on the high school campus are already veterans of multiple years of playing “daddy ball” or “checkbook ball”.

So what does the high school coach get with each incoming class of freshman? A smaller number of players who all arrive knowing everything about how to play the game. And a batch of parents who think that their kids are just moments away from a full ride scholarship – if only that foolish coach would see the world (and their little darling in particular) in the proper manner. (Ok perhaps that is more than a little sarcastic…

What is happening?

Coaches are driven away from the game by parents – who go to the AD and the administration to get them removed. In my area, three out of the perhaps 20 programs have had coaches fired in the last year– including coaches that take their teams deep in the playoffs so success is not the reason for termination.

Parents are becoming the high school baseball coaches. This is not to say that they are not qualified – they may in fact be extremely qualified – but it creates the potential for the continuation of the whole Daddyball experience.

Players are jumping from school to school in pursuit of the best playing opportunities.

Players are dropping out of school ball to focus on travel ball.

All of this is causing community ball to become less and less important….

And why does this matter? Baseball is a game that you really have to have played to understand. And without understanding, it is very difficult to become a fan… the loss of fans, in the long run, will be the ruin of the game that we all love. Perhaps not in our life time - but in our children's lifetime or our grandchildren's

Not trying to be shallow....but, my answer to the original question: Is HS baseball in trouble? Shep's answer is NO !!!!!!!

08Dad

I'm afraid you nailed it...

I guess my answer to the question is "depends on where you live." Personally, I think that far too much is made about the so-called "elite" nature of travel ball as compared to community leagues.

I live in a community where non-travel baseball thrives and co-exists with travel ball and feeds the high school programs. My city has 3 Cal Ripken programs, 2 Little League programs and a PONY program. Those leagues feed 3 Babe Ruth leagues. The city has produced two 12 year old Cal Ripken World Series Champs, 1 10 year old Cal Ripken World Series Champs and numerous participants in Cal Ripken and Babe Ruth World Series in the last 15 years.

My son's high school coach encourages his players to play Babe Ruth ball particularly at all-star time, and he's not the only coach who does that. As one coach I talked to said "why would I want a kid sitting on the bench in a high school game when he could be playing in a Babe Ruth game? They need to PLAY." Oh, and in a state where we have only one state champ in baseball, here's the city's record of production the last 4 years:

2006 State Champ
2005 State Champ
2004 State Runner Up
2003 State Champ

and those were four DIFFERENT teams.

So to those that think that high school baseball is not doing well, come to Kentucky this spring. Come by Lexington. We'll show you a place where high school baseball not only is good, but it's thriving, and the reason it thrives is a great feeder system from community leagues.

I don't care to argue... But... Can anyone find a college star or early draft pick that is listed by anything except the high school he played at or attended?

I'm a big supporter of the summer programs but the player is always listed by his high school not his summer or fall team.

How many high profile players can someone name that did not have a high school attached to his draft or recruiting information?

Scott Kazmir is listed as a Cy Falls high school player. Somebody needs to show me where Cameron Maybin, the Uptons, Matt Bush, etc. is more recognized by their travel teams than their high school.

When a high school player is drafted, his high school is listed not his summer travel team.

I'm the world's biggest supporter of the top summer and fall teams. but they all play second fiddle to the high school team.

Somebody please name the last player recruited or drafted that had his name listed as associated with anything other than the players high school. Whether it was the most important or not, what is being recognized?

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PGStaff...All true....for the moment....it is the future that is in doubt.

Texan...Exactly....That is in great part my point..there are far more Elite teams than there are elite players. Families/players are coming to belive that elite teams are the norm and not the elite. The danger is that nearly EVERY kid feels that he has to play regional ball, and Community/HS ball falls by the wayside.

08...well put as always. You pretty much make my case.

For the record I am NOT against regional ball, it serves a very valuable and important purpose, we did it, we benefitted from it. It is the the balance that I fear is being lost.

44
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Strictly my opinion...

Is HS baseball in trouble? We would have to define what we mean by "trouble".

Soxnole said, "It is just not as important as it once was" and Fungo considered that to be troublesome (although Soxnole didn't think it to be a problem). But I don't know if HS baseball is less important than it was.

For me, it's more important right now than at any other time in my life. But that won't be the case after my son graduates. Then (we hope) college baseball will get awfully important.

For me, HS baseball is way more important than HS football or HS basketball. But that's not the general concensus in this country if fan attendance is any indicator.

HS baseball has issues to be sure. Are there bad coaches and over-zealous parents? Yessir. But there are also great coaches and super parents (I know some of the coaches and I've heard a rumor about the parents ).

But they will always be there. I'll bet that they always were, perhaps with better camouflage. If you think baseball is bad, think about the football coaches and parents (or travel hockey parents...RUN! jk).

And is travel baseball having an impact on the structure of the game? You bet. Mostly in pre-HS baseball. It may actually end up being a benefit (I really hope Little League gets enough pressure from travel to play real baseball some day).

But outside of some disputes over Summer HS ball vs. travel ball, I don't think there is that much impact at the HS level. In time, all the issues will be addressed and people will move on.

My opinion...HS baseball is not in trouble.

HS baseball is not the highest level of baseball that is available to watch (many travel teams consist of the very best players from a much, much larger population), but it is still the highest level that most baseball players will attain.

To me, that makes it very important.

Mike F

High school baseball has its own niche and is not going anywhere. It is as strong - or stronger - today than it was 25 years ago.

What's struggling now is American Legion-type summer baseball because all the great HS players join elite teams and play a national regional and sometimes national schedule. Legion winds up, at least around here, as a developmental place for young HS players who are too young or not talented enough to get on the elite rosters.

quote:

High school baseball has its own niche and is not going anywhere. It is as strong - or stronger - today than it was 25 years ago.

BBD1228, I agree HS baseball is alway's going to be here.

I for one would never ever allow my son to skip HS baseball.
HS baseball come's first and everything else after that.

The HS season is Feb. to no later than the first part of June.
Plenty of time to do any Travel ball in the Summer and Fall.

The Problem is that people/parent's want to have the same type of Competition in HS, that they find in Travel ball.

And that's not what HS is all about.
It's about community and pride in your local area and your local HS. JMHO EH

I don't know the answer for sure, but in the past 10 years... How many players have been drafted or played college baseball that did not play for their high school team?

The only ones I can think of were those that ran into problems in high school baseball. I can't think of any who just elected not to play high school baseball.

I believe that HS baseball will be just fine, and always needs to continue to be an important part of any young man's playing experience. I also believe that summer travel baseball and high school baseball serve fundamentally different purposes. High school ball should be about school pride, and coming up through the ranks to finally reach the pinnacle of baseball in your local community. Kids coming out of little league have something to look forward to, playing for their school, and that should always continue.

Summer travel teams, on the other hand, should be for the more advanced players who are willing to make some sacrifices to play a heavy schedule against the better competition (again, only my opinion). There are many good high school players who can find fulfilling experiences in the summer playing for their high school summer team, or the local American Legion team. Quite a few good high school players can't make or find playing time on legion teams, just as many legion players can't make or find playing time on the better travel teams. When you filter it all down, only the REALLY good players are the ones who can make and find playing time on a quality summer travel team. There are plenty of other good players who can have a great summer in legion or HS summer ball who are just a little bit below the skill level that is required to play the best travel ball. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, or anything wrong with those players. It CAN all be good.

I also think that HS baseball has a serious problem, and that stems from coaches who don't want to allow their best players to participate in summer travel baseball, instead pressuring them to focus primarily or exclusively on the high schoool summer team, and forego the opportunities that good travel ball offers. With my summer program, I have kids who come from schools where the HS coach encourages them to play with us either full time or part-time. I also deal with kids who are essentially threatened by their HS coach that if they play with us, and miss any of their high school summer games that they will be punished during the following spring season. That is simply wrong, and those school coaches are not teaching the young man anything positive. As an example, we had a kid who stayed home from the Jr. Olympics in Arizona this past June because his high school coach told him he'd be kicked off the HS summer team if he went, and wouldn't see much playing time next spring, either. I encourage anyone who thinks this behavior is proper on the coaches part to offer their views as to why that conduct is ok. In essense, I think that many of the problems with high school baseball stem from this kind of short-sighted behavior from men who maybe shouldn't be coaching at all. Some of them bring it on themselves.

My HS coach is a teacher at the school,as is the football coach,and basketball coach.Everyone but the baseball coach "teaches" as class like weight training.

Being a HS teacher doesnt mean the coach doesnt know what hes doing.My coach was the head coach at a junior college for 7 years.That sounds pretty good to me.

Let me add this as a DAD and it is regards to one of my greatest baseball memories--my son in the centerfold of his senior yearbook in his HS uniform with his bat on his shoulder---you can't buy those kind of memories--I say thanx to HS baseball

this thread has made me look back at my own thoughts ten years ago.i told my son's that the goal i felt they could achieve is to play varsity baseball for the high school.i told them they may play in college,a real reach would be pro ball.but they could play varsity bball.
having grown up in town i had and still do have a strong feeling of community sports.i think that has been lost over time or maybe it has just changed.but i think it is important to feel that playing for your school or town team is a great thing.
my son's played travel ball or aau what ever you call it .the coaches made it clear your high school team came first.i find it hard to believe a travel ball coach would feel any other way.
in our community we have coaches who are teachers and coaches who aren't.i think they like the teacher because they are in the system .and since most games are earley afternoon the job is a good fit.

it takes a community to develop a ball player ,they don't often just show up.and i high school coach can't develop a player to his potential in the short season we play here.the skills are acquired somewhere.we don't work well here as a bball community,but that changes a little every year.

My son will tell you thatthe greatest night of his baseball life was when his HS team won our county tournament championship in May. His coach has been at his school for 25 years and is an amazing individual.

Am I missing something? Isn't HS ball an EXTRA CURRICULAR activity? My son's coach went on that premise, if you wanted to participate in travel ball, that was important for the player. And also, no travel ball coach here puts their team ahead of HS baseball. Isn't that the way it SHOULD be?

I will admit though, the college coaches very rarely talked to the HS coach, the phone calls went to the summer coaches. One main reason could be because coaches knew son's summer coach from running a program for 13 years, they all knew him well. And fall ball was used to develop skills as a player, the HS coach spent very little time on development for his varsity players. The HS coach made no effort for my son in promoting him beyond the HS game, but I don't think he really needed to in his case.

But as PG stated, listed in his bio is who he played for in HS,not his summer team coach.

Despite the differences in programs that exist in HS ball, here we could not rely on son getting an out of state offer from just playing HS. And I think if son had only played HS ball, he might have remained just that, depite talent.

After reading through this thread, I think a lot has to do with where you live and the competition within your area and state. But robbing HS of players (as one poster said) is just plain wrong. IMO.

JMO.

My son played for his HS team for 4 years and was allowed to play wherever he wanted in the summer. His HS coach said to me that he didn't care where his kids played as long as they were playing and enjoying it. He really gets it even after 25 years as a HS coach.

High school baseball is in trouble! When senior year doesn't matter that much for recuiting purposes, then something is wrong... There is no other high school sport so affected as that. Summer teams take WAY too much time away from high school conditioning, practice time, and skill building, which can only occur if the players get sufficient reps. We all know summer coaches who put down or belittle high school programs, or try to subvert the local coaches. At the same time, some high school coaches blackmail players into playing for their fall ball teams with a threat of playing time... Summer ball, year round showcases, college recruiters, and anxiety ridden parents have irrevocably changed the whole scene for the top players. What a shame, as I agree with several posters, who pointed out the large crowds, girlfriend in the stands, local glory angle, and letter jacket wearing players who make the game fun.

HS ball is during HS.
After that it Was up to me and my Son were he played in the Summer.
If the HS Coach didn't want to play him in the Spring, That was his choice.
Don't hold a player back from trying to get better.
As long as there playing/training should be a plus for the HS coach. EH

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Brod...

Well put.

With players being scouted and showcased at freshman and sophomore levels...

With players beginning to comit before the July 1 call date....and sooner...

With players skipping their senior year...(I know it's unusuall but the bar has now been set for the more ambitious parents and elites)

how long before even the junior year is irrelevant for the elites?

44
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the structure of High school ball is so much different. Remember it is affiliated with a school whose MAIN purpose is to EDUCATE. As a high school coach besides working on their baseball skills I spent a lot of time making sure the kids were keeping up with their schoolwork. You know when the college recruiter called me(and they did call me despite what other posters think) the discussion of grades class rank and SAT scores were a good part of the conversation.

quote:

You know when the college recruiter called me(and they did call me despite what other posters think)

Will, it's this way in my area too. I know a couple of other coaches were talked to sort of informally by a couple of schools, but the schools that called a coach before calling son, called the HS coach. Since I have continued to follow our HS program and the players, I know that the coach continues to receive calls about his guys.

I cant even BEGIN to tell you all how much this post topic has hit close to home. Too many personal details to go through,..tooo many team heart aches to wallow in,...but yes,..in some parts of America,..especially in a particular rural town, where funds are almost non-existant,..and a baseball coach ( a REAL EXPERIENCED coach, not just the nice science teacher who volunteered to help out ) cant be found,..highschool baseball is in trouble!!!

We need good experienced coaches,..we need funding,..we need help!

Why are good coaches hard to find?

IMO - High school baseball in these parts seems to be doing pretty darn well.

The only issue I have seen since I have lived here is the disparity in talent between different high schools.

Very dramatic differences. Some teams are loaded with great players - and others have kids that you fear for during the game.

It makes for some very "tough to watch" games during the season. It is no fun watching a team score 25 runs in the 1st two innings.

From PGStff...

quote:

I don't know the answer for sure, but in the past 10 years... How many players have been drafted or played college baseball that did not play for their high school team?

High school baseball is where a player likely has to compete for a spot on a team for the first time. One thing, and a very important thing, that select baseball does not require.

High school baseball is where you compete with a relatively small group of peers for a spot on the team.

High school baseball is where you learn to earn the respect of a coach that is not required to do so.

High school baseball is where you learn to compete with players older and younger.

High school baseball is where you learn to contribute to a team and earn a spot on a team that is composed of only members of the high school population.

High school baseball is likely the first team that you must outhit your teammates to win a spot. There is no EH rule.

High school baseball schedules are shorter and usually less games changing the use of pitching talent dramatically.

High school baseball is where a player first has to deal with the reality of getting cut, or not making the varsity starting nine.

High school baseball is where you have to learn to outplay your teammates that have more political clout such as the booster club president's son.

High school baseball reduces the chances signficantly that your daddy will be the coach.

It is the competion that makes the sport survive....

And, the best baseball advice I was ever given was, that "you have to learn to embrace the competition. There will always be someone sitting on the bench to take your place".

When high school baseball becomes extinct, baseball will too...................

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
High school baseball is where a player likely has to compete for a spot on a team for the first time. One thing, and a very important thing, that select baseball does not require.

That certainly has not been true for Texan son. He has had to compete for a spot on his select teams.

There are no givens on any team unless "DADDY" is the coach

Here in AZ at least (and in my view only) high school baseball is as good as ever and probably better. I guess a lot of it depends on where you live.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
There are no givens on any team unless "DADDY" is the coach

Or knows the coach, or employs the coach, or goes drinking with the coach, etc. Let's not confuse "select" with "elite." The two are not always the same, regardless of what some parents might like to think.