is it a double?

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Stats & JMoff - I was viewed as kind of a detail oriented stickler when I did "the book" but I have to say that you fella's outpace me. I luv'd every minute of it but not with the kind of dedication you guys have. I salute you both.

I don't know about stickler... At a SB tournament this weekend I had my "un-official" book. I was scoring in gloves, hat, down jacket, three layers of pants and umbrella. At one point of a near run rule game, the other team batted out of order. I waited for our scorer to get up, he didn't. I yelled at him, "Is that the right hitter?". He didn't hear.

I weighed the advantage of another out after lengthy delay arguing while my chair unwarmed and decided to let my daughter handle it from the circle instead. She did and in less time than an argument would've taken. Truth be told, even if I was official I wouldn't have gotten up unless extra bases were involved.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
I don't know about stickler... At a SB tournament this weekend I had my "un-official" book. I was scoring in gloves, hat, down jacket, three layers of pants and umbrella. At one point of a near run rule game, the other team batted out of order. I waited for our scorer to get up, he didn't. I yelled at him, "Is that the right hitter?". He didn't hear.

I weighed the advantage of another out after lengthy delay arguing while my chair unwarmed and decided to let my daughter handle it from the circle instead. She did and in less time than an argument would've taken. Truth be told, even if I was official I wouldn't have gotten up unless extra bases were involved.

How involved the scorer is, is something a lot of folks have different opinions about. Me, I don’t believe a scorer, unless he’s a coach in the dugout, should say anything to anyone about things that could affect the outcome of the game. Batting out of order is probably the thing that comes under that heading more than others.

OBR handles batting out of order in 6.07, and I take my guidelines from the comment in that section.

Rule 6.07 Comment: The umpire shall not direct the attention of any person to the presence in the batter’s box of an improper batter. This rule is designed to require constant vigilance by the players and managers of both teams.

I realize it doesn’t mention the OSK, but since it tells exactly what the design of the rule is, I figger is covers the OSK as well as the umpires. And even if it didn’t, 10.01(B)(4) does.

(4) The official scorer shall not call the attention of any umpire or of any member of either team to the fact that a player is batting out of turn.

Now that’s not necessarily the same as a team scorer, or a fan scoring the game that sees something, but to me its best for scorers to handle scoring, umpires to handle umpiring, coaches to handle coaching, and players to handle playing.

In HS games where there’s re-entry, courtesy runners, 10 run rules, and lord knows whatever else, I’m guessing I see some kind of lineup mistake in at least 10 games every season. Most are pretty innocuous, but they’re rule violations none-the-less. I’ll call attention to a lineup mistake like an incorrect number, until the game is officially started. Once that happens, I leave everything up to the coaches to sort out.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

How involved the scorer is, is something a lot of folks have different opinions about.

Stats, I agree with you at some level... In the situations where I'm scoring for a club team when I've been given the direction to "watch out for us". To me, I now have the obligation to notify the coaching staff when I see something wrong. Yesterday, I'm scoring a 16U club softball game for my daughter's team. My book is wet, I'm using pencil (my pen ran out) and things are blurry, but #2 batted before #8 the first time around (and in the lineup card I saw). When #8 was batting and #2 was on deck with a funny look on her face, well you know. Wait for #8 to put the ball in play. If she gets on, you call it, if not let it go. I was simply asking if they realized they were out of order in case #8 got on.

When I score HS ball, I've been given the same direction/latitude, "If you see something, let us know". Technically, I'm never official in HS. They have some freshman in the dugout keeping a book. Whenever they have a question, if the coach doesn't like the answer he gets in the dugout, he calls me down. I'm really only there for double checking their pitch count (most important job) gathering the data that becomes their stats and to let them know when somebody bats out of order. The freshman counts the runs.

Whenever I've scored some kind of neutral event or been a neutral scorer, the most I've ever said in a batting out of order situation was, "Hummm"... I then either get a call down or a messy book.

My batting out of ourder story....

12U ball in a Tournament. Batter with 2 out runner on 3rd and a 2-2 count in a 2-1 game in the 4th innning. For some inexplicable reason the runnr takes off from 3rd the batter squares and the pitch is up and the batter pulls the bat back and the runner is tagged out.

I was not scoring but was behind the backstop and I asked the umpire if the pitch was a ball or strike and he said ball. I then asked so you had 3-2 on the batter and he looked at his clicker and confirmed it.

Next inning rolls around and the team sends up the next batter in the order rather than the batter that was in the box at the time of the caught stealing. I head over to my kids team dugout and tell them that the wrong batter is in the box. The head coach had been having problems with the other teams coach so he goes storming on the field with the count 3-1 and challenges the batter in the box. The whole time he's on his way out I'm yelling at him to stop and come back. The umpire did what he was supposed to do which is to put the right kid in the box. Pitcher walks him immediatly and the next kids jumps back in the box and doubles in the gap setting up a 2 run inning that they held on to a 4-3 win.

The teams scorekeeper was a very nice man and the grandfather of one of the kids on the team but he didn't know the rules well enough to be the coach's right hand guy.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
Stats, I agree with you at some level... In the situations where I'm scoring for a club team when I've been given the direction to "watch out for us". To me, I now have the obligation to notify the coaching staff when I see something wrong. Yesterday, I'm scoring a 16U club softball game for my daughter's team. My book is wet, I'm using pencil (my pen ran out) and things are blurry, but #2 batted before #8 the first time around (and in the lineup card I saw). When #8 was batting and #2 was on deck with a funny look on her face, well you know. Wait for #8 to put the ball in play. If she gets on, you call it, if not let it go. I was simply asking if they realized they were out of order in case #8 got on.

When I score HS ball, I've been given the same direction/latitude, "If you see something, let us know". Technically, I'm never official in HS. They have some freshman in the dugout keeping a book. Whenever they have a question, if the coach doesn't like the answer he gets in the dugout, he calls me down. I'm really only there for double checking their pitch count (most important job) gathering the data that becomes their stats and to let them know when somebody bats out of order. The freshman counts the runs.

Whenever I've scored some kind of neutral event or been a neutral scorer, the most I've ever said in a batting out of order situation was, "Hummm"... I then either get a call down or a messy book.

The only thing I have a problem with, is the spirit of the rule. That comment in 6.07 is really what its about. The players and managers are supposed to be the ones handling those things, not the OSK. There’s little doubt every ML team has people all over the freakin’ park, not to mention someone in the TV truck looking at all the different feeds as well, whenever they can, so its not as though the managers are expected to take care of such things in a vacuum.

Its just that I consider all levels below the ML to be “developmental” to a major degree, and that means a place for everyone to learn their craft. Who is being helped to do that, if people who aren’t even coaches are allowed to control what happens on the field? I can tell you this, a coach who gets his cojones squeezed because his team lost a game because of that, won’t soon forget it, so it’s a lesson well learned.

But even more than that, picture how little attention a player must paying to what’s going on, when he goes up in the wrong place in the order. To me, not enough attention is paid to the minutia anyway, and a lot of understand what goes on has been lost along the way. Let the people on the field do their jobs is all I’m saying. I don’t say anyone is wrong for calling attention to something that keeps their team from making what could be a costly mistake. I’m just saying, if a coach asked me to do that, I’d refuse. Its simply not as though anyone’s life was on the line, or kids were gonna go hungry or lose the roof over their heads.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
My batting out of ourder story....

Next inning rolls around and the team sends up the next batter in the order rather than the batter that was in the box at the time of the caught stealing.

I had almost the exact thing happen in club SB, but waited for the batter to hit a double before telling the coach, as I knew he couldn't hold his water.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The only thing I have a problem with, is the spirit of the rule. That comment in 6.07 is really what its about...

I'm by no means arguing here, but I do view this a little differently. The official scorer at the upper levels needs to be independant, we agree on that. I also agree about the lower levels being developmental, but who are we developing? The coach or the players? I think both.

If we don't call them on a mistake or point it out, the players and coaches don't learn the rules. Think back to that first frantic situation your kid was in when the umpire called infield fly rule, the infielder dropped the ball and all haites broke out, coaches yelling kids running, chaos. That day, they all learned about the infield fly rule.

Batting out of order is the same kind of situation and Luv's example is perfect. Offensive coach of previous team doesn't verify outcome of batter to know who is up next, defensive coach doesn't know to wait. Coaches make a mistake, kids ask what happened and they all learn about two rules on the same play. They might not learn it all, but that at least learn "there is something tricky I need to worry about"

At the lower levels the SK is kind of a coach's helper IMHO (and I count HS as lower level). If my kid wasn't playing, I'd be in the dugout sitting next to him with baggy baseball pants. Since I don't think dad's belong in the dugout, I'm not going there. I do feel the 'empowerment' of being that guy watching his back.

Any way, Merry Christmas to all if this thread (are we still talking about a double?) doesn't continue.

JMoff,

For sure we’re really not disagreeing in intent, but rather on what the best way to teach and learn is. In my case, I’ve always been one who needs to not only make a mistake and have it pointed out, but to also experience the “real” consequences. If we were talking about something life and death, then of course I wouldn’t want to see someone die if it could have been avoided, but we’re definitely not discussing life and death, or anything close to it.

In either case, the important thing is, there has to be some kind of enlightenment going on, otherwise its nothing but an exercise in futility. As long as everyone knows and understands what they can or can’t expect from everyone else, its all good. Like I said, before the ump hollers “Play Ball”, I’ll point out everything from an improper number for a player on the lineup card, to an improperly drawn batter’s box. But once its game on, I just do my job and keep my nose out of everyone else’s business. LOL.