Is it getting to be too much?

TPM,

quote:

I am sorry but for a pitcher who has played all spring, summer and COMMITTED, there is absolutely NO reason why he should be pitching in a fall tournament.

That of course is your opinion. The parents of many others (see list in previous post) had a different opinion. I'm not saying you or they are/were wrong. Scott Kazmir was signed with the U of Texas and most all the rest were also signed with colleges.

It's really hard at this point to argue with their decision. Guess most would say they did the right thing!

Here are a few 1st round pitchers presently in the Big Leagues who pitched in recent years at Jupiter or in the World Showcase.

Zach Greinke
Scott Kazmir
Jeremy Bonderman
Dustin McGowen
Zach Duke
Matt Cain
Dana Eveland
Kyle Davies

Here are some more first rounders who could end up in the big leagues who pitched in Jupiter or the World Showcase.

Chad Billingsley
Jeff Allison
Gio Gonzalez
Chris Gruler
Eric Hurley
Beau Jones
Luis Atilano
Michael Bowden

And here are some that pitched at those events who were later 1st round out of college.

David Aardsma
Dewan Brazelton
Lance Broadway
Matt Fox
Mike Pelfrey
David Purcey
Jeremy Sowers
Wade Townsend

I could name many more who pitched in the off season. There is no right or wrong, there's just results!

Tiger Paw Mom:

I see your point. As players get older and more mature their dedication to the game doesn't diminish but rather strengthens and the strong one's continue...no question. But what causes the passion in some to become extinguished?

My concern was centered more on the younger players, ones that if they start to 'burn-out' and they continue to slide, they drop out. Some of this is going to happen regardless of the help and guidance that they receive but my point is to recommend that parents keep an eye open for it such that it doesn't become a major problem culminating with their son or daughter losing interest and giving up the game.

I've seen it happen and it saddens me.

Gotwood, I don't know the answer to your question in regard to the previous year, but I can make an educated guess compared to say, 4 or 5 years earlier. I bet you can figure out my educated guess without me posting it.

PGJerry, I agree with what you're showing for those who've gone on spectacularly, but I wonder how much TOTAL baseball those players listed played over the course of their final 18 months before either being drafted or going to college. These guys all were seen at the various showcases, and some also in the Area Code Games, but how big of a sports load did they carry in total? I doubt we'll ever figure that out for most of them. I'm willing to bet that more than one or two of them were pretty judicious in what they did or didn't do, while at least a few probably did everything they had the time/money/stamina to compete at.

PG put up some spectacular athletes as examples.
The best of the best in the USA.
Gifted athletes.

What about the other 100,000 players?

Itsinthegame, NOW, you're going where I'd like this to lead. The best will make it, but what about the rest. How does this chase affect them? This 95% (likely much higher) of all players are who I'm interested in. After all, there are more people who visit this site with a son like that, than people who's kid will be a top ten rounds pick, or get a 50% scholarship to play in the Pac-10 or SEC.

Lets not forget that these kids who, for example, go to Jupiter go not only to be seen but to compete against the very best baseball players in their age group.

If they didnt care about competing many would be dropping out of Jupiter this year and they arent.

The competitive juices are what make the good baseball player that special baseball player.

If a kid is not a great competitor he is not going to a be college player or a pro-- he is going to be that ordinary HS player who plays because it is cool to be on the team but he could care less about playing in college and without these players you do not have a HS team because you would not have the numbers

I agree Tom, but, the question I'm asking isn't about Jupiter. Jupiter is a great opportunity and many of the best will be there.

There are also a heck of a lot of very good players who will go to college, or be drafted next June whatever, who has been faced with overload and how to manage it, at least thats what I think. The number of graduating seniors nationally who go on to play in college or be drafted far exceeds those who have the opportunity to play at Jupiter or Ft. Myers in the coming weeks.

As a summer coach, I shut my teams down earlier this year than I'd have liked to, but my guys were largely worn down and I thought many could use some down time. These kids aren't just rec-type and high school players. Four have already verballed to good D-1s, several more are still exploring their 4-year options and others already have a good idea of which high quality juco they'll be playing for. They're all serious, or they wouldn't be playing the type of baseball we provide in the summer. I've passed up a lot of tournament opportunities for my boys since late August because I didn't think playing their 120th or 130th game of the year, depending on the kid, was going to bring them some return they haven't already seen. That said, we are going to gear up in December and get ready for a few winter tournaments before high school starts, so it'll be starting all over again.

I understand that the majority of young players are in a different situation than those mentioned. And I sure can't speak for the other 100,000 players

Maybe it's just me, but I thought this discussion was about "Is it getting to be too much"? I don't know where you draw the line on on who exactly is it too much for.

I brought up those names as examples of some players who did play/pitch in the off season. They were just high school kids at that time like the other 100,000, only with more ability than most. Truth is they had more reason than anyone to protect their arm. I could have given thousands of examples of other kids with a bit less talent who also pitched in the off season at the same events.

Regarding just how much they pitched before hand... I imagine it was different for each of them. I do know that some of those listed pitched a lot of innings. They pretty much all pitched in high school, in summer ball, in fall ball, in various events including the National team. I don't think any of them was abused or forced to do anything. I also know that none of them pitched a lot of innings at those events mentioned.

Understand, I am not arguing either side of this issue. What I am trying to show is that there is more than just one side.
There usually is!

IMO - Lets not stray too far.

The PG Jupiter tournament is the best single event in the USA - bar none IMO.

I cant think of any serious player that would turn down the opportunity to play at that event.

But the topic isnt playing at Jupiter.

It is about playing consistently anywhere when you are hacked up physically or "burned out".

Just a friendly reminder.

If that is all this is about, I can give my opinion.

Burned Out - You probably won't play
Injured - You should not play

Alot depends on the location in the country as well

A HS season here in the Northeast is 20 games at best which is merely a warmup for summer and fall--fall teams play just weekend here in nthe northeast

Other poarts of the country begin HS in January while here in the NE we dont get on the fields until possibly April

i cant get enough baseball, given i don't pitch but living in the Northeast it's great to get out on the field considering we don't get to play year round, i would play at any opportunity

quote:

But what causes the passion in some to become extinguished?

The passion is gone when their ability can't keep up. I get so frustrated with these threads because there is no such thing as "burn out". The best continue to play. Period.

What is too much? Only the player can decide. Period.

JMO.

R.

Callaway, You hit the nail on the head. Good post.

PG, I agree with you, but I'll give a great example of when it might be too much. I have an outstanding young man that I've had the prviledge of coaching this past year who probably did play too much this past summer. That boy is listed on Baseball America's list of the top 300 06s, and he's fairly high on that list. He played in the Area Code Games, he was on the Jr. National team, he played on a fall scout team, he played on my summer 18s, he played on his high school summer team, all this after hs spring season.

Most of the summer, he played with a strained groin and hamstring. I talked to several scouts and college coaches who wondered if he wasn't quite the player that they thought he would be, but they didn't know he'd been playing hurt for many weeks. When I'd tell them how banged up he was, they changed their tune and realized this kid is an ultimate gamer. But, some also asked why he didn't just shut it down. Heck, how is he gonna do that going into his senior year when he's a top level prospect? I am concerned that nowadays, the pressure might be too great to push onward, when common sense would indicate a break to be in order.

That is sometimes the problem, how do you tell a kid to shut it down and skip the Tournament of Stars, Area Code Games, Jr. Pan-Am Games, Scout Team Games, AFlac, Jupiter and Ft. Myers, and other important stuff like that? That stuff is why this kid will be playing Pac-10 baseball or going in the draft.

In many of our summer games, I only DH'ed this kid and would practically yell at him to not run hard on extra base hits to save his legs. On the other hand, his hs coach would be upset if he couldn't make one of their summer games where he was wasting his time facing some sophomore with his 75 mph gas. Then, when he got back from Mexico, his hs coach has him playing in high school fall-ball, which out here is largely a waste of time for a good player. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I agree Callaway, its up to the player to decide what's to much

quote:

Originally posted by Callaway:
The best continue to play. Period.

What is too much? Only the player can decide. Period.

JMO.

R.

Callaway,

I agree with you on the "burn out" thing - but:

You may not feel the same way in a few years when your kid looks like he just went through 10 rounds with Muhammed Ali - and he still has another 30 games to go.

I sincerely hope it never happens to you and your son - but it isnt an easy thing to deal with as a parent - especially if your kid refuses to stop playing.

I let the eldest make the decision. Very very bad decision IMO - and a few years later - he agrees.

I will not let that happen with the youngest.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
TPM,

quote:

I am sorry but for a pitcher who has played all spring, summer and COMMITTED, there is absolutely NO reason why he should be pitching in a fall tournament.

That of course is your opinion. The parents of many others (see list in previous post) had a different opinion. I'm not saying you or they are/were wrong. Scott Kazmir was signed with the U of Texas and most all the rest were also signed with colleges.

It's really hard at this point to argue with their decision. Guess most would say they did the right thing!

Here are a few 1st round pitchers presently in the Big Leagues who pitched in recent years at Jupiter or in the World Showcase.

Zach Greinke
Scott Kazmir
Jeremy Bonderman
Dustin McGowen
Zach Duke
Matt Cain
Dana Eveland
Kyle Davies

Here are some more first rounders who could end up in the big leagues who pitched in Jupiter or the World Showcase.

Chad Billingsley
Jeff Allison
Gio Gonzalez
Chris Gruler
Eric Hurley
Beau Jones
Luis Atilano
Michael Bowden

And here are some that pitched at those events who were later 1st round out of college.

David Aardsma
Dewan Brazelton
Lance Broadway
Matt Fox
Mike Pelfrey
David Purcey
Jeremy Sowers
Wade Townsend

I could name many more who pitched in the off season. There is no right or wrong, there's just results!

Jerry,
The original post was not about attending a PG tournament or showcase, but when is enough too much.
You keep naming the MLB players (and high draft picks) who pitched in Jupiter. This was fine for them, some were also very much on the radar at that time for a number of years. But as someone stated what about the hundreds of others who are not in the same position as they are? Very few of the hundreds who attend showcases end up Major League players. They didn't get to that level because they attended PG, TeamOne, Area Code, whatever. And besides, we really don;t know how much they pitched before they attended, do we? There wasn't such a craze back then that one has to attend every scouting/recruiting event of the year to get a good scholarship or drafted.
By the way, my son pitched in Jupiter his senior fall, after he committed, but he is not mentioned in your list because he is not a pro. I think for most of the kids that come, becoming a high round draft pick is not the norm, going to college is, so I am not sure why you keep bringing that up. I have always supported what you do, I think you are taking my opinion too personally.
By the way, David did not want to pitch, as he had taken a break, but he was asked by his coach to help the team, he had a very large crowd watching, he was NOT at his best. It was afterwards I realized it was not really necessary. He would have plenty of opportunity in the spring to be seen by scouts by June. Yes he was found by CU at Jupiter, in his junior fall.

Your opinion probably holds more value here than mine, but you give yours as a businessman, mine is not. Hundreds of players come to the tournament for a chance to be seen by a college coach, or for great competition. For the few who have put in a lot of time all year on the mound and been rewarded for their hard work with an offer, I stand by my original opinion enough is enough.
There is no right or wrong, I am just seeing it one way as a parent who wanted to make sure when he got to college he was healthy. For me, that was the result.

Callaway and bbscout:

I respectfully disagree with you on the existence of 'burn-out' and it's affect on players.

I will grant you that the 'cream of the crop' so to speak may not be affected because they have managed not to get 'burned-out'. Overwhelmingly most players do not get 'burned-out'. Good for them.

I have seen players that have left the game and it isn't always about the inability to keep up. Mind you it's not a pervasive problem but I've seen it.

These elite players are not super-human...they have the drive, dedication, commitment, and, yes, passion to move forward and succeed. That's all good. Keep in mind that my comments were more focused on younger players...from a large group where the elite players have not truly emerged yet.

How can you be so certain that 'burn-out' does not exist? I guess you've never seen it and it's affects as I have.

This isn't some 'touchy, feely' discussion either. I think parents, primarily, should guard against 'burn-out' or whatever you choose to call it and prevent an otherwise good player to turn his back on the game. That's all.

Gotwood,
I think it's in interpretation of the use of the word.
JMO

TPM,

Please understand I do not take this personally. Hopefully you don't either.

Please understand nothing I ever say has anything to do with being a businessman. I might be the world's worst businessman. I don't even want to be a businessman. There are many who know this to be true.

I never claim anything as being the Gospel. I'm just not that smart!

Just like others I do have opinions whether they carry any weight or not. I do not look at these topics as a battle of who is right or wrong. I have been wrong many times in my life and expect that trend to continue.

Tiger Paw Mom:

I think I have to agree with you. It may be similar to my 'inside baseball' problem!

BTW...more good, solid, thoughts on your post to Jerry. He realizes that there are always more than one answer to these questions. I'm liking your thoughts on the topic in regards to limiting the 'real' work that pitchers do. You're looking out for the best interest of your talented son and that's good.

I'm not sure any of us are completely right or wrong, but do hope that others gain new perspective that will help their kids going forward.

Now, given that I asked the original question about this all maybe being too much, I'll expand on that question with this statement. Many times, I've discussed burn-out with parents. I haven't seen it happen to any of the kids I know yet, but then, they are all serious about their baseball. For most, it is their primary sport of choice (though mine does love his salmon & striper fishing, too ). When I've had parents ask if I worry about burning any kid out, I've often replied that if that happens, at least they'll know he wasn't cut out to play in college, as those guys see a lot more action than they have to this point. I've always been sincere in the belief that if a kid can't handle the load now, he'll never make it in college, or professional baseball. BUT, when does it just go over the top?

I wonder about us parents getting out of control with how much might be too much. Our kids are in many cases fine with whatever next game, showcase, camp, tournament we want to put them into, but at what point does it just become a bit ridiculous and we lose perspective? I know of a very high profile kid out here, doesn't play for me though I'd love to have him in our program, who primarily plays in the summer wherever he's going to get the most bang for the buck, with regard to moving him up the ladder when compared to every other '06 nationally. This kid doesn't play much in summer leagues, but he does travel all over the country going to showcases, plays as a "hired gun" type player on out of state teams that sponsor him to play in the biggest tournaments because it'll get him seen with the best around. He also participates in things like Area Code, Tournament of Stars, etc. My question is does this kid want it, or do his parents and are they the ones pushing the agenda? I have a very strong suspicion about this example, and my opinion wouldn't reflect kindly on his parents. I fear that some of "US" have lost perspective about why our kid should play, and the life lessons we're teaching our kids as a result. I know for a fact that some parents have turned baseball into a quest for their sons (or themselves vicariously) that supercedes almost everything else. Is that too much?

There, does that give us a bit more to debate?

Part of me says, I've never seen 'burn-out' except in players who are realizing they're about at the end of their career...similar to Callaway's comments.

On the other hand, I know I've felt "burned out" at times in my job...not because I reached any peak, but because I worked my a$$ off for a year or two and I needed a break...a good vacation...or maybe a less stressful project for a while. I've also felt burned out as a coach at times...weekend-after-weekend on the road, coaching practices and games. I still loved the game and didn't feel I was reaching my limit as a coach, but I needed a break.

So why can't we expect a young player to feel similarly "burned out" after a very busy Spring and Summer? Seems to me that its possible...yes, at least possible. I know I had a conversation with a high D1 coach about this a few summers ago...We were just chit-chatting about the evolution of baseball to a year-around sport and I asked what he thought about it...his comments were something like, 'I think its great, I just worry about burning the kids out.'

Its just something to think about, be aware of, realize that these 12-18 year old kids may have some other interests too and let them experience it "all" like you and I did.

06catcherdad:

Yes.

justbaseball:

I agree.

06catchersdad,

I have seen young players pushed unmercifully by their parents. It has been very obvious that the parents sometimes care more than the kid.

I tend to like most people, so I like most parents (not all). I really do like most all young kids whether they play baseball or not.

Very seldom do we have any problems with young players. Often we have problems with unrealistic parents.

One should never judge those parents though. we have seen things work out well in just about every possible situation.

Fishing is good! Some people want to fish year around. Some people want to play baseball year around.

For christ sake... Baseball is a GAME! Others make their living fishing! There are no fishing scholarships that I'm aware of. Perhaps that is the only difference.

But there are fishing sponsorships and fishing tournaments all year round can get tedious

Been there -dont that

In some ways it is worse than being on scholarship--when your sponsor says be there you be there !!!

I sort of hate to admit this, but I don't like fishing.

Justbaseball,

I remember when some of the most respected HSBBW posters suffered from message board burn out. You’re right… they just needed a break!

I'm starting to understand.

just

No problem-- it aint for everyone

I used it too relax after a hard day at the office--used to hit the local lake at night in my rowboat and fish to 1 or 2 in the morning--go home shower and sack out for a hour or three and then back to the office

Great therapy either alone or with a buddy

I think that some parents burn themselves out and then blame it on the kids . There are lots of high picks who play all the time, and there are other high picks who take the whole summer off. When it comes to pro ball, what you do next spring will dictate where you get picked, and not what you did last summer or this fall. When it comes to getting that scholarship, what you did this past summer gets you your scholarship in the early signing period. If playing ball causes burn out, then you are not suited for baseball. If you are playing while hurt, then the parent is to blame. Take some time off and rest and rehab the injury.

I have to agree with that bbscout...BTW, I do like camping, but never took to fishin'. Not sure why? It just is what it is.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Fishing is good! Some people want to fish year around. Some people want to play baseball year around.

For christ sake... Baseball is a GAME!

Exactly.

JBB,
Great post. I too agree, having burn out doesn't mean the end of playing. I've seen my son burnt out, time for a rest, recharge the batteries kind of stuff. And as a college player, 5 games a week, from feb to june, at the end of working hard on the field and off, a good long two-three weeks of not thinking about baseball was much needed.

06,
I think that you bring up very good points that can be debated forever. I know recruiting has changed since my son was in HS, we would get invites to showcses, tournaments and they were put aside, nothing really serious until his junior summer. Don't get me wrong he played all over the country since he was in 8th grade, but not for scholarship, draft exposure. He played for fun. My son was a three year Maccabi player. His trips were primarily for meeting other players of his faith from all over the world, sort of like an olympics with all sports involved. We felt it was an important step in his development as a person,not a player. He played at games with hundreds watching, but no scouts, no college coaches watching, no radar guns. There are not too many young men who play that are of our faith in the baseball world. It was important that he be aware of this for his future plans. He could get the showcase stuff in later on.
We chose carefully his tournamnets and showcases, which you could count on one hand, with a few fingers. I would say that he only spent 2 years on the national radar. That was enough.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
I think that some parents burn themselves out and then blame it on the kids . There are lots of high picks who play all the time, and there are other high picks who take the whole summer off. When it comes to pro ball, what you do next spring will dictate where you get picked, and not what you did last summer or this fall. When it comes to getting that scholarship, what you did this past summer gets you your scholarship in the early signing period. If playing ball causes burn out, then you are not suited for baseball. If you are playing while hurt, then the parent is to blame. Take some time off and rest and rehab the injury.

Good post.

TPM,

You should be proud. You did a great job. Your son is very talented and a good person. That's a winning combo. IMO

PG,
Thanks, we are, most of the time, more proud of him being a fine young gentleman rather than a good pitcher. Point being, too many parents spend too much time stressing over their sons baseball development rather than their people skills.

As far as the other debate, bbscout's post got the point across better than I did.

Jerry, you know, when speaking of good kids, I have to say that you've done well. I know they are older, but I've certainly enjoyed my interactions with both Andy and Ben, first class gentlemen all the way in my opinion. Something about those midwest values.

Justbb, glad you like camping, but too bad you don't fish. My kid would love to play in the Alaska league some summer if he's lucky enough, as much for the fishing as for the baseball. He's so into his fishing that I don't have to wonder where he is whenever I can't find him. He's usually waist deep in the American River with a rod in his hand. Between his time on the ballfield and his time in the water, there isn't much time for a really good kid to make a bad decision. Even though he never gets burned out on the fish, dad does worry about how it takes away from his school work at times.

BBscout, I have to agree with most of what you say, but in the case I cited about my player, the parents are not at all to blame. They're some of the best parents I've had the pleasure to know, and they left the decision about how far to push things entirely up to their son. In the end, it worked out, but I worry about the pressures to perform when all these opportunities are in front of a kid. I'm sure you know the kid I'm talking about pretty well, and am also confident you'd think nothing except good things about him and his parents. They're first class all the way.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
just

No problem-- it aint for everyone

I used it too relax after a hard day at the office--used to hit the local lake at night in my rowboat and fish to 1 or 2 in the morning--go home shower and sack out for a hour or three and then back to the office

Great therapy either alone or with a buddy

TR-HIT, You have to try groovy- GREENWOOD,LAKE N.Y. this time of the year (real nice)