A friend of my sons was already cut as a freshman at his new college. The coach said he over-recruited. My son is also being considered for the Class of 2018 AFTER the coach decides how many of the incoming freshmen he is going to cut. Is this the norm? The 2017s are just now playing Fall Baseball. In his friend's case, he will never experience a college game?
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c5tx posted:A friend of my sons was already cut as a freshman at his new college. The coach said he over-recruited. My son is also being considered for the Class of 2018 AFTER the coach decides how many of the incoming freshmen he is going to cut. Is this the norm? The 2017s are just now playing Fall Baseball. In his friend's case, he will never experience a college game?
If your friends son was already cut before the the end of semester it wasn't because the coach over recruited or he had an athletic scholarship. What division? Be more specific please.
This isn't normalike, but to answer your question, often D3 AND JUCO coaches over recruit, knowing the will cut players.
D3 for friend's son. Coach told him he over-recruited; and cut him.
But the other college is a D1 that is considering my son. Looked back in history and they cut 3-4 freshman every year. Big red flag.
I remember you posted a question about "no response" from coaches and got some good feedback and things eventually worked out. Similarly, there are a ton of reasons not visible (at least at first glance) to us outsiders why college coaches must over-recruit to an extent. That extent varies. You have to think about the process... they wish to recruit the best players they can for all positional needs and have plenty of depth to allow for injuries, grades, poor performance, leave school, etc. Answers from players don't all come in a timely manner. They have to have plan B thru Z. They can't afford to come up short. It is impossible to get it exactly right. They can afford to come up with too many.
Freshman year cuts are very real. Sometimes they are massive blood baths. They happen later years as well. It is important that your son have good direct dialog with the HC about where he sees him fitting in the program before he accepts an offer. Getting some athletic scholarship $ is at least some skin in the game on their part. Even then, it is still 100% up to your son to then show up and deliver on what the HC thinks he saw in him. And then, he has to keep doing it day in and day out. And then, the next year (or even over the winter break), new recruits will be brought in. It is also the coaching staff's job to bring in better players than the ones they have.
When son knows this is the reality and embraces it, he will be in the best position to flourish in the environment of actively earning his spot every day for the next four or five years.
Regarding your comment - "My son is also being considered for the Class of 2018 AFTER the coach decides how many of the incoming freshmen he is going to cut. Is this the norm?" ...
Well, as stated, it's not out of the norm to cut freshmen. But, for me, that's a new way to tell a recruit you are delaying his offer. Strange, IMO.
Agree with you...players must work hard...the tryout never ends. Just trying to learn how things are these days. A good friend played D1 at a major college back in the 90s. I asked him...and he said they redshirted kids; but never cut them. Some left for academic reasons...but no cuts. Just wondering if it is the norm for coaches to over-recruit and plan on cutting? I don't think it was that way years ago.
When I see this type of conversation I start thinking of the importance of "fit", whether it be a D1 player going to a D3 or not. Was it the right college aside from baseball? These college coaches are searching for the best players to put on their roster, regardless of D1 or D3. Coach's have a job, and doing well at said job, will potentially lead to a better job and higher paying job. The sooner that players and their parents understand this, the better off they'll be. This is probably the reason some D3's are much better than some D1's; players found a fit where they could thrive as a student, as well as a player. Plenty of D1 kids on top D3 rosters.
And, I wish my kid hadn't been a late bloomer...or that we hadn't been off on the recruiting timeline...
He will be fine; solid D1 skills that will prevail at a D3 matched up with a top education prepared for the future.
Great stuff on this site.
This has been a good reminder - have seen a lot on over recruiting, but not much on cutting. Cabbage, thanks for the great advice as usual. And as I see here at least once a week, the "Go where you're loved" mantra makes perfect sense.
"Go where you're loved..." I think that might be the right decision. Thanks.
Even if a coach doesn’t cut players who wants to be player #40 on a roster? College ball isn’t about getting on a roster. It’s about receiving the opportunity to earn your way on to the field and stay there. Being on the back end of a roster is no guarantee of getting an opportunity.
Was the D3 a recruited player?
FYI, any freshman who signed an NLI at a D1 or D2 program normally will not be cut his first season.
Any freshman who walked onto a program (no NLI) can easily be cut end of the semester.
You can only carry 35 on the roster. Would you bring in 35 players with a max of 35 allowed? How many would you actually end up with after the fall? Academic casualties? Injuries? Players who don't get with the program and have to be excused for a multitude of reasons? It is very easy to only look at this from the players perspective.
If you are an incoming freshman getting money you are safe the first year unless academic issues or disciplinary issues arise. But after that all bets are off. When you look around at the start of the fall season and there are 42 players present everyone knows they better get after it and be on point because at least 7 guys will not be there after the fall. This creates a very competitive environment and incentive to not give the staff a reason to make you one of those 7 guys that have to be gone. If everyone were to look around and see 35 guys at the start of the fall season would the environment be the same?
Coaches want enough players available to be able to have some choices to make. I can tell you at the JUCO level you will see 60 to 70 guys at some programs when the fall starts. At the D2 level 40 to 50 is not uncommon. The bottom line is very few players are going to have things go exactly as they would like them to go. If you are one of those 35 players great. Now how many of those 35 players are going to have a significant role? Only 9 or 10 position players are actually going to play. Out of those pitchers how many are going to get significant innings?
College baseball is tough. You better be tough. You better come in squared away. You better show value on the field and no issues off the field. Otherwise be prepared to deal with a host of issues.
Some great replies here but I think some are dancing around the original topic a little here.
Yes, many (not all) college coaches are over recruiting these days and cutting players. And it happens at D1's in the form of players being pressured to transfer out, being told they won't play etc
This is partly a symptom of kids committing at early ages and the NCAA coaches having only guesses as to which 9th & 10th graders are going straight to the MLB draft, which will be contributors, and which will be busts. Lots of projection of 14 & 15 year olds going on and it is out of control.
Yes. It is happening. Yes, it is a problem.
c5tx posted:D3 for friend's son. Coach told him he over-recruited; and cut him.
But the other college is a D1 that is considering my son. Looked back in history and they cut 3-4 freshman every year. Big red flag.
You say "cut", but there may be much more to the story and you can't necessarily draw the simple conclusion that a coach will over recruit with plans to cut. For example, are you certain that the 3-4 you mention were actually cut and didn't simply choose to leave on their own? Were they red-shirted? Injured?
A few examples. A HS teammate of my son's has already left his team (staying at the school). In a nutshell, he wasn't cut out for this particular program. At my son's school, a couple of freshmen are hearing about possible red-shirting next season. Another is having surgery, so a medical red-shirt is planned.
When you hear of 3-4 being cut, it's important to know if those were scholarship or walk-on players. Not typical that scholarship guys would be cut in freshman fall season.
My point is that there's probably a lot more backstory that will bring context to what you're seeing. Based on fully understanding the situation, you can see how those might impact your son, i.e. if he's scholarship and all the cuts have been walk-on players, then probably a fairly safe assumption he wouldn't be cut in the fall.
With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
And as 3and2 points out, over recruiting is a reality at all levels. That will lead to players being cut, "encouraged" to leave (no playing time, told in advance no playing time, etc), etc. It is a reality. I don't think that early recruiting is as much of the problem as I think those early recruits that don't develop simply never see an LOI from that school. I think the early recruiting will lead to more decommits in baseball than we've seen before.
Some coaches are known for over recruiting and cutting, so certainly understand the history of the programs your son is considering, and to my earlier point, make sure you understand the real history and context of what you see.
CaCO3Girl posted:With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
Do you believe that there's no drama at JUCO? So they can carry a roster of 60 and you don't think there's drama when 9 can be on the field at a time? Sounds a lot like HS where (sarcasm font key lock on) there's never any drama.
Nuke83 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
Do you believe that there's no drama at JUCO? So they can carry a roster of 60 and you don't think there's drama when 9 can be on the field at a time? Sounds a lot like HS where (sarcasm font key lock on) there's never any drama.
Can we get a drama free emoji?
Coach May nailed it. If your son is entering the world of college athletics...baseball, he (and you) had better be tough. At all times and at all levels.
If you cannot cut it academically, you will be gone soon enough. If you cannot separate yourself as a contributing member of the team on the field, you will be gone eventually. If you are looking for any guarantees, you are fooling yourself.
Coaches do not have time to carry players that they don't think help them achieve their mission....winning baseball games and graduating players. (Likewise, players who find themselves not contributing get frustrated and are usually bad for team chemistry - making the coach's job harder and the player very unhappy).
Its a tryout every minute your son is on the field, in the classroom, on campus. Whether he has a scholarship or not, he must prove himself...then re-prove himself time and time again.
If you believe its a red flag, then you have to believe its a red flag for all of college athletics. There are simply no guarantees. This is not recent, it has been this way for sure since our older son entered in 2004.
CaCO3Girl posted:With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
Juco at some levels is no picnic either. you have 2 years and you have to contribute right away.
Yes, sometimes kids that were early recruited don't get an NLI, but in general coaches want to keep that to a minimum. They don't want to get a bad reputation in that regard. They are competing with other top schools for the best 9th & 10th graders in the country and don't want to give ammunition to other schools to say "you know they pulled offers from X amount of kids, can you really trust them?" Etc etc
3and2Fastball posted:Yes, sometimes kids that were early recruited don't get an NLI, but in general coaches want to keep that to a minimum. They don't want to get a bad reputation in that regard. They are competing with other top schools for the best 9th & 10th graders in the country and don't want to give ammunition to other schools to say "you know they pulled offers from X amount of kids, can you really trust them?" Etc etc
Five years ago I would have agreed with you. Today, no way. No matter what, the schools/coaches hold all the advantage in the recruiting game. Don't kid yourself if you believe otherwise.
justbaseball posted:Coach May nailed it. If your son is entering the world of college athletics...baseball, he (and you) had better be tough. At all times and at all levels.
If you cannot cut it academically, you will be gone soon enough. If you cannot separate yourself as a contributing member of the team on the field, you will be gone eventually. If you are looking for any guarantees, you are fooling yourself.
Coaches do not have time to carry players that they don't think help them achieve their mission....winning baseball games and graduating players. (Likewise, players who find themselves not contributing get frustrated and are usually bad for team chemistry - making the coach's job harder and the player very unhappy).
Its a tryout every minute your son is on the field, in the classroom, on campus. Whether he has a scholarship or not, he must prove himself...then re-prove himself time and time again.
If you believe its a red flag, then you have to believe its a red flag for all of college athletics. There are simply no guarantees. This is not recent, it has been this way for sure since our older son entered in 2004.
This is a great post. I am definitely NOT the type of person who would say "this or that is unfair" nor do I spend much time wishing things were different. I prefer to deal in reality. It is what it is. That really applies to so much in life, not just Baseball...
The big thing is going in "eyes wide open" and I think it needs to be thought through in terms of "pre-college" too. Does the director of a travel program have integrity? Can he really help in the recruiting process? Etc
Strange to hear of a coach cutting a kid at a D3 and using "over-recruited" as the reason. There is no over recruiting at D3's....there are no roster limits and the kids don't get money from baseball. I'm not suggesting anything, as I don't know the situation, but D3 coaches typically don't cut kids in the fall....and certainly not because of over recruiting. The coach could have already seen enough to tell the kid that he likely won't see any significant (or any) playing time....or maybe the kid just fell out of love with the program and decided that competing against 50 other guys wasn't for him and used the over recruited thing as a way to get out and put the blame on the coach. Again, not suggesting either way, just seems strange.
That being said, kids need to understand the situation before they go to a school....any school, whether it's D1, NAIA, Juco, whatever. Look at past years.....talk to current players/parents, etc. If you don't do the homework on potential schools, there's nobody to blame but yourself if things don't go the way you expected. Some D1's never bring in extra guys.....some bring in 5 or 6 extra (or more) every fall and make cuts. You'll never know if you don't ask.
bacdorslider posted:CaCO3Girl posted:With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
Juco at some levels is no picnic either. you have 2 years and you have to contribute right away.
IMO, juco is even riskier from a baseball perspective. Many of those NCAA guys who were cut or red-shirted are coming after your position in the spring. Even if you make the spring roster as a freshman, the next fall another boatload of freshmen and transfers will show up looking to replace you.
Find the right fit, regardless of division.
Coach May absolutely nailed this. If you want to play baseball at the next level — you had better be ready to earn it. Being good in high school only gets you in the door. What you do once you are there is up to you. People all too often want some sort of guarantee and that isn’t the way life works.
Players and parents get confused all the time about exerting energy trying to control things they have no influence over. If you are smart you figure out how to spend time on the things you do have a level of control over — when do you show up, hard hard you hustle, how hard you study, the choices you make about parties, how you treat your teammates, how much work you put in when no one is looking, etc… — then let the rest go.
bacdorslider posted:CaCO3Girl posted:With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
Juco at some levels is no picnic either. you have 2 years and you have to contribute right away.
CaCO, one of my sons went the JC route the first three years (one redshirt), two different California JC's. Each of the three years, there were no fewer than 85 players that showed up in the fall with the majority being good players - at a minimum, all-league at their respective HS's. These JC's typically ended up with about 28 on the Spring roster. So, over those three years, he experienced nearly 200 of his friends/teammates getting cut in the fall.
One of the JC's was also notorious for asking several freshmen to redshirt so they can develop physically before starting their college playing career. So, immediately into the freshman year, the student/athlete is asked to fall behind a year in his college academic progress. Then, he has to go through the recruiting process all over again into a 4-year school. Then, he has to hope all the classes transfer properly (often, they don't). Then, he's the new guy again, trying to earn his spot with an entirely different group of coaches and players.
Certainly, there is no lack of drama going the JC route.
MAM posted:Coach May absolutely nailed this. If you want to play baseball at the next level — you had better be ready to earn it. Being good in high school only gets you in the door. What you do once you are there is up to you. People all too often want some sort of guarantee and that isn’t the way life works.
Players and parents get confused all the time about exerting energy trying to control things they have no influence over. If you are smart you figure out how to spend time on the things you do have a level of control over — when do you show up, hard hard you hustle, how hard you study, the choices you make about parties, how you treat your teammates, how much work you put in when no one is looking, etc… — then let the rest go.
Reminds me of a quotes I heard in an ESPN special when they were exploring student-athlete academic eligibility. One football player was quoted, and I am paraphrasing, that there really wasn't enough time to perform well both on the football field and in the classroom (I believe this player played at Miami), so they had a saying "C's get degrees."
Being an athlete who has the prospect of going pro in a sport is much different than most of the talent level of most of our kids. I can see where a player would make those concessions in order to achieve the larger goal of being drafted. Putting yourself in a competitive sport at the college level is not easy. I can understand why coaches over-recruit.
Gov posted:When I see this type of conversation I start thinking of the importance of "fit", whether it be a D1 player going to a D3 or not. Was it the right college aside from baseball? These college coaches are searching for the best players to put on their roster, regardless of D1 or D3. Coach's have a job, and doing well at said job, will potentially lead to a better job and higher paying job. The sooner that players and their parents understand this, the better off they'll be. This is probably the reason some D3's are much better than some D1's; players found a fit where they could thrive as a student, as well as a player. Plenty of D1 kids on top D3 rosters.
Do you feel your son was D1 talent? Just curious because from your posts here it seems that you are bitter, that perhaps your son belongs at a D1 and not a D3. I would imagine if a player has the option to play D1 and get scholarship money most would take the chance and see how it works out. I have heard that a few D1 kids will transfer and play Juco for a couple years then end up at D2 and D3 schools in the end, but they gave D1 a shot. I just sense that you feel your son is better than D3.
Cabbage, very well detailed. I don't characterize it as drama... But a definitely 2x's the challenge. Certain Jucos in Texas are much the same, particularly San Jacinto, Weatherford, etc. And they feed into heavy hitter D-1's...Tx A & M, UT Austin, Baylor. Competition is fierce!
One other nuance here that seems worth mentioning. Just because a D1 roster limit is 35, for example, does not guarantee the coach will carry 35 players.
I have heard a D1 coach say, that after the Fall, there were only going to be 32 or 33 players on his final roster. He said that was where the line was in terms of kids that were out practicing in the Fall who could contribute.
I imagine at the D3 level, there comes a point where having 40, 41 or 47 players becomes a burden, especially if a good number of them have no chance of seeing the field.
We can analyze past rosters all we want, but the coach will draw the line where he feels he needs to draw the line.
Also, son's D1 keeps 33.....keep in mind that only 27 travel to non-conference away games (except spring trip...everyone goes) and the league mandates only 24 travel to conference away games....so just making the roster at son's school only guarantees they'll dress for about 20-22 of the 54 games considering they can't play at home until the snow melts lol
Curious if this would ring true at high academic schools (Ivy League, Stanford, GTown, etc.)? Much tougher to get accepted which would in turn mean most roster spots are "secure" as long as you take care of business?
Stanford has cut players as late as last week before games.
A question you have to ask yourself is, "Would I (or my son) want to just be on the team even if there is no chance I will play?"
I know one player who answered yes to this question for four years (he played a little bit his senior year) - wonderful young man that was well respected by his teammates. I know many more who would have never said yes to that, and when faced with it, transferred.
CaCO3Girl posted:With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
There's a lot of reasons: Academics, Credits Transferring in the future, etc.
cabbagedad posted:bacdorslider posted:CaCO3Girl posted:With all this drama I don't understand why more kids don't take the JUCO route.
Juco at some levels is no picnic either. you have 2 years and you have to contribute right away.
CaCO, one of my sons went the JC route the first three years (one redshirt), two different California JC's. Each of the three years, there were no fewer than 85 players that showed up in the fall with the majority being good players - at a minimum, all-league at their respective HS's. These JC's typically ended up with about 28 on the Spring roster. So, over those three years, he experienced nearly 200 of his friends/teammates getting cut in the fall.
One of the JC's was also notorious for asking several freshmen to redshirt so they can develop physically before starting their college playing career. So, immediately into the freshman year, the student/athlete is asked to fall behind a year in his college academic progress. Then, he has to go through the recruiting process all over again into a 4-year school. Then, he has to hope all the classes transfer properly (often, they don't). Then, he's the new guy again, trying to earn his spot with an entirely different group of coaches and players.
Certainly, there is no lack of drama going the JC route.
I couldn't imagine having to spend 3 years at a JC, but some do as you have stated above. It would be a complete waste in most cases, money wise, time wise, academic development wise. Depending on what school you transfer to after, you will have issues with credits transferring. Ryan has credits that are not transferring, so his 2 years of schooling aren't really 2 years. Thankfully, he had college credits from HS, and he is going into accounting where some of the credits can be used towards his CPA license when he is done.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Strange to hear of a coach cutting a kid at a D3 and using "over-recruited" as the reason. There is no over recruiting at D3's....there are no roster limits and the kids don't get money from baseball. I'm not suggesting anything, as I don't know the situation, but D3 coaches typically don't cut kids in the fall....and certainly not because of over recruiting. The coach could have already seen enough to tell the kid that he likely won't see any significant (or any) playing time....or maybe the kid just fell out of love with the program and decided that competing against 50 other guys wasn't for him and used the over recruited thing as a way to get out and put the blame on the coach. Again, not suggesting either way, just seems strange.
That being said, kids need to understand the situation before they go to a school....any school, whether it's D1, NAIA, Juco, whatever. Look at past years.....talk to current players/parents, etc. If you don't do the homework on potential schools, there's nobody to blame but yourself if things don't go the way you expected. Some D1's never bring in extra guys.....some bring in 5 or 6 extra (or more) every fall and make cuts. You'll never know if you don't ask.
You make a good point: It is good to ask. Sometimes it will not be possible to research past history, because it may be a new, first time HC at the school. Ryan's D-1 brought in 49. I am not sure what the breakdown is as far as scholarship to walk on guys, but it is easy to see quite a few guys will not be remaining with the program.
Chicago643 posted:Gov posted:When I see this type of conversation I start thinking of the importance of "fit", whether it be a D1 player going to a D3 or not. Was it the right college aside from baseball? These college coaches are searching for the best players to put on their roster, regardless of D1 or D3. Coach's have a job, and doing well at said job, will potentially lead to a better job and higher paying job. The sooner that players and their parents understand this, the better off they'll be. This is probably the reason some D3's are much better than some D1's; players found a fit where they could thrive as a student, as well as a player. Plenty of D1 kids on top D3 rosters.
Do you feel your son was D1 talent? Just curious because from your posts here it seems that you are bitter, that perhaps your son belongs at a D1 and not a D3. I would imagine if a player has the option to play D1 and get scholarship money most would take the chance and see how it works out. I have heard that a few D1 kids will transfer and play Juco for a couple years then end up at D2 and D3 schools in the end, but they gave D1 a shot. I just sense that you feel your son is better than D3.
Hopefully you'll learn a lot from this site so that you can develop a solid recruiting plan for your son. When somebody relays their experience I guess it's possible for a bit of bitterness to come out...you should be able to lean on "my-our" experiences to help your own son.
Gov posted:When I see this type of conversation I start thinking of the importance of "fit", whether it be a D1 player going to a D3 or not. Was it the right college aside from baseball? These college coaches are searching for the best players to put on their roster, regardless of D1 or D3. Coach's have a job, and doing well at said job, will potentially lead to a better job and higher paying job. The sooner that players and their parents understand this, the better off they'll be. This is probably the reason some D3's are much better than some D1's; players found a fit where they could thrive as a student, as well as a player. Plenty of D1 kids on top D3 rosters.
I agree that finding the right fit is the most important thing. The best "fit" is often defined by who wants you the most. Good things tend to happen when you go where you are wanted. The best D3 programs play good baseball - better than a lot of people think. The same is true in the better JUCO programs. Anyplace that is competitive can be the right environment to help your son learn life skills that will help him succeed in life once his playing career is over. Realistically speaking, that is the biggest benefit of playing college baseball for almost any young man. Now for the part I disagree with - there are absolutely NOT a lot of D1 players on D3 rosters. Maybe one here and there - MAYBE. But with a very rare exception D1 players are on D1 rosters & D3 players are on D3 rosters. D1 players are more complete that D3 players. Lots of D1 players sign pro contracts. Hardly any D3 players do. The reason for this is, while D3 players are good, almost all of them have a hole in their game somewhere, or they are small, or they are unorthodox in some way. That is just reality - and there is nothing wrong with that. Way too many people are hung up on what number comes after the D.
adbono posted:Gov posted:When I see this type of conversation I start thinking of the importance of "fit", whether it be a D1 player going to a D3 or not. Was it the right college aside from baseball? These college coaches are searching for the best players to put on their roster, regardless of D1 or D3. Coach's have a job, and doing well at said job, will potentially lead to a better job and higher paying job. The sooner that players and their parents understand this, the better off they'll be. This is probably the reason some D3's are much better than some D1's; players found a fit where they could thrive as a student, as well as a player. Plenty of D1 kids on top D3 rosters.
I agree that finding the right fit is the most important thing. The best "fit" is often defined by who wants you the most. Good things tend to happen when you go where you are wanted. The best D3 programs play good baseball - better than a lot of people think. The same is true in the better JUCO programs. Anyplace that is competitive can be the right environment to help your son learn life skills that will help him succeed in life once his playing career is over. Realistically speaking, that is the biggest benefit of playing college baseball for almost any young man. Now for the part I disagree with - there are absolutely NOT a lot of D1 players on D3 rosters. Maybe one here and there - MAYBE. But with a very rare exception D1 players are on D1 rosters & D3 players are on D3 rosters. D1 players are more complete that D3 players. Lots of D1 players sign pro contracts. Hardly any D3 players do. The reason for this is, while D3 players are good, almost all of them have a hole in their game somewhere, or they are small, or they are unorthodox in some way. That is just reality - and there is nothing wrong with that. Way too many people are hung up on what number comes after the D.
Concur with most of what you said. But, I didn't say "a lot of D1 players on D3 rosters"
I said: "Plenty of D1 kids on top D3 rosters." My son finally learned that it wasn't about D1,2, or 3. It was about finding the right fit for him as a student aspiring to play baseball at a top academic college.
