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This is not about baseball --- it's about academics --- well maybe it's about society in general but it does impact our children. Reading today's newspaper and I see where our education system is failing. The "JCM" in the following article is one of the largest high school in our school system.
quote:
In 2004, JCM's graduation rate was 67.3 percent. JCM's graduation rate this year was 57.2 percent, according to the report card.
THAT MEANS BARELY HALF OF OUR STUDENTS ARE GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL AND THESE GRADUATES EXPECT THINGS TO GET BETTER???

My son graduated from public school in our town in 2002. However things have declined since 2002. Today I would not send a child of mine to a public high school in our system. Not sure what I would do but I would be forced to do something. Some will say this is the "haves" and the "have nots" with the "have nots" being left out. Others will try to make it a racial issue just because we are in the south. I don't see it as a racial issue because we are still under court ordered desegregation and bussing (after 40 years). These kids come from all over town. Black/white numbers about the same in the schools. The NAACP wants bussing to continue and fights to make it an issue. Our school board is made up of 9 members with a 5-4 black majority. The majority want bussing to continue also. I don't know what the problem is. I think it is more the "care" and "care not" parents with the "care not" parents destroying our schools. "Care not" parents raise "care not" kids. What's a parent to do?
Fungo
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Was fortunate enough to "buy" my son a "good education" at a private school. To me it was an investment in my kid's future I could not afford to pass on considering the state of the public schools in my area. However, I know alot of people who have really hit on hard times with the current economy and are working two jobs just to put food on the table. They have neither the time or money to put their little ones in athletics, gymnastics or whatever extra-curricular activities that keeps them off the streets. They do not love or care about their children any less, they just run out of hours in a day.
Public education is the nation's greatest resource and in most cased provides far, far better preparation for real life than a sheltered private school. I say this as a product of a highly regarded private school. As a result, all four of my children have attended public schools.

Granted, they have been extremely highly regarded public schools, but that is the key. Parents and communities have an impact on the quality of their public schools. They can contribute time, attidude and money. And in the end, families and communities usually get out of it what they put into it.

By the way, despite the angst and upheaval brought about by bussing -- which was implemented to guarantee integration and school equality -- it has done the job it was supposed to do. Thus the far more open-minded attitudes of young people in America in regard to race and thus the election of a black president. It is difficult to see it as anything but positive in the overal balance of things.
Last edited by jemaz
Now here's a topic that will get some blood percolating. I totally agree with jemaz, public schools are our greatest resource. We need the public school system to succeed.

There are so many different factors involved in measuring school success, and without seeing them all it's hard to get the big picture. Now I'm not saying I have the answers, but I have looked at this from the inside and out. I'm going to leave the parenting issues aside for others to dissect, as I have been known to get the red-a** when talking to my peers about this. Let me just say that I'm all in favor of boarding schools. Mad

For starters, when you start looking at numbers like graduation rates, the formula used by this school district may not include factors such as transfers to private or out of district schools. I'm not saying there isn't a problem at JCM, but the numbers may not be telling the whole story. If there's a phenomenon such as white flight occurring then you're probably not going to a true picture of the success rate at any given school. What do the SAT scores say? The state HS competency scores? Or the other standardized test scores say about achievement in core curriculum subjects? Not always as bad as it looks. And how do you measure the quality of social preparedness that students are receiving?

Here's an interesting read that examines the recent historical perspective of American schools. As the author points out, we seem to go through cycles where panic sets in and TPTB decide that we must re-invent the school system.
The Myth of America's Failing Schools

I believe in the old adage that in order to learn kids have to feel safe. Racial tension doesn't help much with a kid's sense of security. I graduated from a HS in which mandatory bussing was enforced, and I can tell you that scenario can be problematic for sure. Kids with a forced bus ride to a distant school are more than likely to get off that bus with a chip on their shoulder, and the kids watching them depart the bus are leas than likely to be rolling out any red carpets. Not an ideal situation, but it can work. In the end you have to find a balance, while a diverse student population is a model for the real world, a kid should be able to go to the school in their community. Bottom line is that we all have our work cut out for us in learning how to ease racial tension. The world isn't going to get any whiter, browner, or blacker. It already is what it is, and our kids need to 'get that' sooner than later.

Special Ed is probably for another topic, but it has relevance here. I should note that around 15% of the general pop in the USA has some form of print related disability- dyslexia if you will. That issue alone has a huge impact on testing and retention rates. While private schools generally do a great job educating lesser challenged students, they don't usually provide the kind of support needed to teach kids with learning differences. That's why most special ed students have no place to transfer to, and publics end up dealing with a much higher population density of challenging students. It doesn't help the numbers look any better.

I currently work at a public high school with around 2200 students enrolled. The diversity of the student pop is rich, because the diversity in the community is rich. The quality of teachers is also pretty diverse. But one of the big problems is that people aren't exactly lining up for teaching jobs around here. Finding a way to make the teaching profession more attractive to new graduates is one of the many big challenges facing our country. BTW, you're going to find some real duds teaching at private schools too. I would encourage just about anyone who feels that they have a stake in our childrens' future to consider spending some time in the classroom. No it doesn't pay much, but the real rewards are huge.
Last edited by spizzlepop
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quote:
Originally posted by spizzlepop:
No it doesn't pay much, but the real rewards are huge.


And the benefits are huge too spiz...at least up our way.

Our Principal/Superintendant, who has four assistants, at our rather modest sized high school (1500 enrollment) in suburban Chicago pulls down $260,000 each year just in salary. His assistants all make well over $100,000 as well. A Driver's Ed teacher in an adjacent district was making close to $160,000...and that was reported nearly six or seven years ago.

It isn't any different at the local schools at the lower level either.

It's getting increasingly tougher each year to sustain this...particularly given the continuing very sour economy.

Yet they constantly ask for more!


Eek
Last edited by gotwood4sale
Many of my college friends, now teachers in the Bloomington, IN school system, quietly reference a "conspiracy of ignorance" that disproportionately impacts adolescent men.

For black students, its often expressed in teenage social stigma attached to "trying to be white".

For low achieving white students (I'm told) its often fueled by a family stigma that sees academic success as a rejection your parents achievements/social status.

In France, an anti-education pandemic rages across Algerian/North African suburbs "banlieue", where 14-15-16+ boys flatly refuse to take instruction from women. (The alternative is to skip school, stay home, smoke dope and watch French MTV all day.)

How to fix any of this/that? Thats way above my pay grade.

Surely though, poverty and penal systems will continue to grow, unless these trends are reversed.
Last edited by HaverDad
In our area the public school system is excellent. You can hardly get into teachers college here. There are more kids turned away because you have to have great marks and there are so few positions open.
Our HSs are not as big as in the US. Most are less than 1000 students and I wouldn't hesitate to send a child to any of them. We have never had a race issue in opur schools except in Toronto where a lot of violence has developed over the last few years. Much of it is drug related and race oriented. This has led to some racial tension.
I have always believed that the state should provide 1 public school system and it should be the best it can be. A year or so ago a politician tried to introduce faith based funding for private schools and he ended up getting fried at the polls. I have always disagreed with private schools. There is a very good one here and I wouldn't dream of sending a kid there. I also believe that the real education takes place outside the classroom with the interaction of the student population.
quote:
How to fix any of this/that? Thats way above my pay grade.

That's partly my point HaverDad. I'm certainly not alone in fighting this, but I don't see the numbers on my side increasing much. Running away from the problem is the first thing many parents see as the solution, and it doesn't help much.
I have to believe the hopelessness that fuels these stigmata is correctable. Cultural tolerance and acceptance is one social objective that cannot be achieved soon enough. A public education system with common academic values is needed for that to happen. The epidemic in the banlieue sounds like religion driven dogma of the worst kind. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face! That's precisely the type of hurdle that must be overcome. Looking at this stuff in the rear view mirror is going to provide the most enjoyable view of it, but nothing much to linger on.
Last edited by spizzlepop
There is a wonderful website for Illinois which lists all of the salaries for the public school administrators and teachers in Illinois. The numbers listed below are the '06-'07 salaries for each administrator and teacher in our public high school district with less that 1500 students enrolled...just the salaries are listed, the benefits are not included. They are all well compensated with the lowest salary for a full time teacher at $54,000!


Here's that list...

$257,474
$126,937
$125,716
$122,000
$119,096
$117,536
$116,652
$116,431
$116,373
$115,585
$113,707
$113,315
$111,963
$111,153
$111,084
$110,500
$110,500
$108,959
$108,698
$107,553
$106,635
$105,915
$105,245
$104,783
$104,633
$103,474
$101,450
$100,435
$100,872
$98,699
$97,100
$95,825
$95,702
$95,275
$95,176
$94,845
$94,286
$91,604
$91,565
$91,484
$90,771
$88,110
$87,992
$87,855
$87,132
$87,057
$86,840
$86,217
$84,766
$84,483
$84,480
$83,082
$83,018
$82,889
$82,150
$79,354
$79,200
$77,925
$77,308
$77,144
$76,642
$76,512
$75,180
$72,413
$70,906
$70,553
$70,237
$69,891
$69,730
$68,443
$67,955
$66,458
$66,312
$66,208
$65,878
$65,860
$65,415
$65,354
$63,778
$63,540
$63,216
$62,659
$62,287
$62,210
$62,171
$61,498
$61,430
$61,131
$60,211
$59,595
$59,588
$58,094
$57,317
$56,517
$56,332
$55,292
$54,970
$54,969



The school is nationally ranked in Newsweek, but according to the school's report card,it has failed. We have a problem with out-of-district students coming in (reportedly close to 100) at an annual educational cost of $13,000 per student. There are a large number of students living in Section 8 housing who are causing problems requiring police action.

Parents try to positively get involved, but the principal/superintendent (remember...$257,474) turns a blind eye. The school board goes along with the principal---even to the point of allowing the principal to remain in his position after getting caught having an affair with one of the newly tenured/appointed chair of the student services department at the end of the '08 school year.

Morale is low among the teachers (in part due to the handling of the affair--lies and all) and now they have to deal with the new societal problems affecting the school. Unfortunately, we will be involved as parents for 5 more years, but even as a tax-payer, it is frustrating to see a once excellent school spiral downward .... Frown
Last edited by play baseball
Our education systen is sufferring because it was taken over by 'academics'. Academics are usually degreed individuals with many theories but no practical experience.

Somewhere along the line it was decided that all students are college material. Vocational schools were shut down and our nation lost thousands of tradesworkers who may have benefitted.

Political correctness and the shortsightedness of the courts have also damaged education.

Co-ed high schools have been mandated by the courts. Can you imagine the raging hormones, peer pressure and the presence of the opposite gender all interferring with the thought processes of many teens.

The failure is not only at the high school level as we have seen. Failure to teach children to read proficiently at grade level is an absurd notion that we have come to accept as reasonable.

There have always been problem students and there have always been schools for such students. Counselors and teachers should be making the determination who belongs in these schools instead of the courts.

The 90's saw such innane practices as social promotion and fuzzy math, not to mention 'group testing'.

If the courts adminster the law instead of making law, our lives all around would benefit.
Last edited by Quincy
Socially, the "banlieue" are expansive high rise public housing "projects" that ring at least 75% of central Paris, starting 8-10 miles out.

Worst case scenario is Cabrini Green.....but in French.

Among the greatest issues the French state must manage are very large (illegal) polygamist families living in close, public housing quarters.
Last edited by HaverDad
While we are on the topic of public schools, what do you all think about schools with budget problems cutting back such programs as the "gifted students" program? We have a neighbor with such a child, and I must say they ran down to the board to speak their mind when district was looking to cut back program. Now it seems to me that there are already ways to educate these students without taking scarce resources away from the general population. After all you are gifted, then move up a grade. And once in HS there are AP classes to take. It seems to me to boil down to the rich getting richer. When was the last time you heard about a gifted kid being a ********er?
quote:
$257,474

Looks like Mr. Baldermann can afford to sponsor some of these out-of-district students himself. Also, with $54,969 at the bottom end, it looks like yours is one of the few districts in the nation that affords its teachers a decent salary. The fact that Newsweek ranks your school, but the the AYP report card shows failure highlights my earlier point that the numbers don't always paint a clear picture as to what's actually happening.
We have a school in APS that made huge gains last year in graduation (79.38 %) but failed at AYP. This is a school with historically high minority numbers, low SES, and low overall achievement. Are the kids just 'getting pushed through' as some here argue, or are they making real gains by staying in school?
re: "gifted students" program.

HaverSon did gifted programs from first grade but, until high school, these "gifted" classes involved mid-day bussing to a nearby elementary school. To me, most of that day-tripping seemed designed to make moms and dads feel their kids were getting prep school-style educations.

Beyond textbooks, I never understood why "gifted" programs require much additional funding at the high school level, especially if the kids never leave the building. I'm confident most high school gifted/AP programs could be severely cost-streamlined. Selective/strategic enrollment practices and teacher deployment seems the key factor for "gifted enrichment".
Last edited by HaverDad
My one brother was put ahead 2 grades. He walked away with 13 scholarships at the end of his SR year and even tool calculus on his own without a teacher. The problem is he entered college at 15yo and was a social misfit.
I really think it is a big mistake putting all the emphasis on grades and studies. You will get to the same place in due course.
I had a chance to study at the Sorbonne in France. I decided to study in England instead. I can tell you we are spoiled when it comes to the haves and have nots.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
quote:
Originally posted by spizzlepop:
quote:
$257,474

Looks like Mr. Baldermann can afford to sponsor some of these out-of-district students himself. Also, with $54,969 at the bottom end, it looks like yours is one of the few districts in the nation that affords its teachers a decent salary.


I think most of the schools in Illinois compensate the teachers well. A friend's husband teaches BAND in a very small district in southern Illinois and makes $86,000--again, it doesn't include benefits--including the teachers retirement.....Even the Catholic schools in Illinois pay well to attract good teachers....I thought all teachers (or most, anyway) were paid more along the lines of business and industry.....I'm surprised and sad to learn otherwise.
Last edited by play baseball
I don't mind saying what I make. I coach two sports and have several years experience in those sports. So, I am at the top of our "B" schedule for coaches. I also am a class sponsorer, do several "other" things like work security at home events like football games ... To say the least, I am here a lot. I also have a Master's Degree + and am at the top of our school district's pay scale. In fact, I'm the 6th highest teacher in our district. I make right at $72,000 per year which includes all benefits and everything listed above. I live in Illinois like Gotwood4Sale and Play Baseball.

I teach at Triad High School. "Triad" because three small communities feed into one high school. Our Marine Grade School (very small town) just scored the best scores in the Metro East on the Illinois State Tests. Our High School outdid most of the high schools in Southern Illinois. I say most because I think one other school was close to us. We have been listed in Money Magazine as one of the "Top 100 Educational Values in America." Our district is the only school district in the Metro East that is in the black. Oh, and our sports teams do exceedingly well. What is the difference? Well, anything having to do with their children, count our parents being there. Also count the teachers being there. It is small town at its best. When I came to Triad 10 years ago, they were in a financial crunch, the booster club saved the sports programs which were on the chopping block, ... The people of these three communities voted to build a new high school. Build 3 new grade schools. Support the teachers in any way possible and what a turn around. It can happen anywhere. JMHO!

I edited this to add that my salary listed above DOES INCLUDE RETIREMENT. Play Baseball's friend's husband must be teaching in a district up north. Down South, we don't approach those salaries unless your in a very select number of school districts.
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
I think most of the schools in Illinois compensate the teachers well. A friend's husband teaches BAND in a very small district in southern Illinois and makes $86,000--again, it doesn't include benefits--including the teachers retirement.....Even the Catholic schools in Illinois pay well to attract good teachers....I thought all teachers (or most, anyway) were paid more along the lines of business and industry.....I'm surprised and sad to learn otherwise.


PB,
It should be obvious that your great state does not suffer the fate that mine does, that being a dearth of good teachers lining up for jobs in public schools. I can only imagine the salaries of those working in private schools in IL, and especially the bean counters Eek
I have seen many highly qualified go elsewhere for work because they just can't afford public school salaries. If we want our brighter minds involved directly in the education process, then we should pay them accordingly. I don't have any problem with that. Unfortunately, many of our kids are left with the likes of me.
Maybe what you're seeing is a decline in the business/worker salaries due to major losses in the business/labor sector. Schools don't really approach the gross inequities of the business world, but it does remind one of the discrepancies between CEO and worker compensations. You can really see this much more clearly at the university level.
quote:
Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
.

I say this with all sincerity Coach...I wish we were living in your district and you were teaching our children.

Whatever you and your community are doing down there needs to be occurring up here as well.

I've always thought you were probably a very good teacher...my hat is off to you Coach!



Gotwood4sale, I'd love to be able to teach your children. Here is a little bit of what we did. First, we've take kids that are doing poorly and after the first quarter, they change their home room assignments to go into homerooms where they are supervised by teachers in that subject. For example if you're failing math, you are assigned home room with a math teach. While that teacher isn't instructing, they can help w/homework. Students MUST bring homework to homeroom. Secondly, in those homerooms starting at the same time, we have instituted a once a week reading comprehension assignment where students read passages, define what is meant in those passages via a multiple choice worksheet that also acts as a guide and then we/teachers record their scores. Those scores are turned in and we can identify students who struggle with reading. This is 10-15 minutes per week. Naturally, the staff had to agree to do it but we're in this for kids. Our scores have really taken off after implimenting this program.

Finally, we order ACT prep computer disk and the teachers/students can check them out. For my baseball team, I always signed up for 2 disks and had students come in during their free time to work on preparation for the test. We have 2 student computers in each classroom and so, we can do a lot that most schools can't do.
Last edited by CoachB25
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I know your great results stem from dedication, motivation, hard work, and perseverance.

I have a feeling that good ol' common sense was the driving force behind the changes all of you made to improve your district. If that indeed is the case then I am mightily impressed.

We need to get more results like this everywhere. I think everyone would agree to that!

quote:
Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
I say this with all sincerity Coach...I wish we were living in your district and you were teaching our children.

Whatever you and your community are doing down there needs to be occurring up here as well.

I've always thought you were probably a very good teacher...my hat is off to you Coach!


I agree. I wish you were teaching and had coached our kids, too. The teachers that my children have (had) don't seem to approach the dedication and commitment that you have for your students. Our loss.
Last edited by play baseball
quote:
Fungo,
I graduated from Bolivar Central High in 1985. I played football against them for many years.

Are you trying to say that Jackson Central Merry has a worse graduation rate now than then.


Good question. JCM and Bolivar both had good football teams. I don't know what the graduation rate was in 1985 or if they even kept records then. From the newspaper reports here in Jackson, JCM (along with other schools) are currently losing ground in the "no child left behind" battle. This has to be turned around! I have always felt as if the public schools held the keys to our future. However the perception of the public schools puts the parents with the ability to pay for private school in an awkward position. Do you sacrifice your child's education and safety "hoping" his presence and your small influence will improve the school system? That would be a tough call. I would probably ignore the local school and follow the lead of most elected officials and look out for my child's best interest. The way I see it only takes 1 bad apple to spoil the whole barrel of good apples ------- or 1 thug in a classroom to wreak havoc.
Fungo
Fungo good subject.

I always was a firm beleiver in our putblic school system, if my kids were in school now they would be in private school.

Here in Florida and around the country our schools have become unsafe, which is not condusive to learning.

In 1990 I sent my daughter to a magnet school. As all of you know magnet programs are technically establish to help bring white students to black schools. I had no problem with that. She had required dance 2 hours a day and loved it and did fairly well academically her freshman year. The following fall, her dean was shot (slightly wounded) by a student who brought a gun when asked to see her for a sit down about his behavior.
My daughter was tramatized, she wouldn't go to school, it took a month to get her to go to her home school. A psych evaluation proved she was suffering deep fear and it would interfere with learning. They approved the time off but put her behind.
This week, a student shot another student, same school, point blank and killed her.

Obviously nothing has changed in 18 years.

Now recently at both my kids HS, one student stabbed another. A young couple from my neighborhood, both teachers, picked up and moved to NC this past summer. Combination of better salary and fearing for their lives caused the move. Teachers do not get paid well here in FL, and therefore you get some people who, sorry, have no business being teachers. I didn't teach in the public school when I came to Florida from NJ and taught private school. Heck, I might not choose to even get a degree in teaching if I had to do it all over again. Stories are common here of teachers getting arrested for unspeakable behavior on a child. Even our western suburb schools, where white flight took place many, many years ago are fair. Many failing schools.

Sad actually, very sad.

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