Is "It" Talent or Skill?

"It" or Talent is a natural thing. Raw talent specifically. Those with raw talent could be taught the skills much easier and learn quicker than those who don't have raw talent or natural ability. Those lacking raw talent could learn a skill and improve on what raw abilities they do have if they work at it hard enough and are determined but not likely to acheive the nearly success from one who has natural talent assuming those with natural talent put in the work to develop their skills too.

"it" is a kid who can pick up a ball and throw it harder than anyone else without ever being trained in the mechanics of pitching or a kid who can hit the ball and hit it a mile without ever being coached how to hit.

Those athletes who have "it" can pick up a ball or pick up a sport for the first time and look like they've been doing it forever without ever geting trained to refine the skills.

Talent definitely trumps skill. Any talented athlete will almost always be a better at a sport than one who was less natural ability that gained skill thru hard work and studying extra hard in their craft.

The only thing that would hold back an athlete who has "it" is their attitude and willing to work hard on the raw ability they have. Otherwise, they have a huge advantage over those who don't have "it"


Good genes help too. Those who come from families of athletes tend to have 'it'

Back when my kids were in their preteen years I saw many kids who had trained skills they recieved from academies. It made them among the better players. However, as everyone got older and physically developed many of these kids fell by the wayside because they lacked real talent.

As the talented kids got bigger and stronger their innate ability annilated these trained kids. By the time it all nets out on the 60/90 you can't buy talent at an academy. You can only cultivate the genuine ability the player possesses.

yes.

RJM,

I love your post!

But...(don't ya'llins just love that part) you forgot to mention the part that zombywoof mentioned when he referred to "...attitude and willing to work hard..."..

THAT is what separates the NEXT level at EACH level and in many(most) instances it is fleeting!

I always thought of the "it" kids as the 2%'ers. Meaning abut 2% of the population has the ability to pick up a ball, bat a racquet etc... and do well. And with allot of training and work may become exceptional. I know of 4-6 kids in my sons age group who fall into that group, from a county of around 3 million people.

The remainder of the group (98%) of the population are the big kids who were the stars in little league and pop warner but never developed for either lack of desire ,work ethic or just topped out early and didn't grow much. The kids who found other interests outside of sports and the late bloomers.

I quess my question to the masses would be. When does talent arrive if at all. Are you over the hill talent wise at 12 or can talent come into play later? You stories like Michael Jordan being cut from his High School basketball team, was it a lack of talent, talent that has yet to mature or a basketball team already loaded with talent

quote:

Originally posted by OnePlayer'sPop:
RJM,

I love your post!

But...(don't ya'llins just love that part) you forgot to mention the part that zombywoof mentioned when he referred to "...attitude and willing to work hard..."..

THAT is what separates the NEXT level at EACH level and in many(most) instances it is fleeting!

This is always an interesting conversation but the answer is that it (talent) is always a combination of natural ability (genes) and skill development. How do I know this? Why do the majority of baseball players come from California, Florida, and Texas? Is it because the gene pool in those states is talent rich? I think not. bbscout was the first one to identify this in my mind. He suggested some kids in California had 3000 or 4000 more at bats than someone comparable in the northeast when they enter college. That is a huge disparity.

Baseball genes are spread equally throughout the US population and across every state. The opportunity to develop is not. Same thing in other sports as well. Why do more hockey players come from Minnesota or the northeast rather than say California, Texas, or Florida?

Natural Talent
Skill development
Work ethic
Desire
Discipline
Luck

All parts of the equation. You can be born with alot of natural ability but if you never work at the game you will be a "raw" kid with lots of potential. But unless you work at the skill development , have a work ethic etc you will always be a kid that could have , should have , would have.

You can be born with some natural talent. Work extremely hard at skill development , have a strong work ethic etc and become a very good baseball player. So the bottom line is its up to you. There is nothing you can do about what you are not born with. Take what you are born with and make the most of it.

I am not sure it is all about the 3-4K at bats or more innings as a pitcher. IMO, the more you do the more chance of injury, and one reason why some college coaches recruit pitchers from colder climates.

I agree the better gene pool doesn't just reside in those 3 states.

What does reside in those 3 states, because of size and population are many scouts, which equals more exposure. A scout here may have a small area to cover, where up north a scout may have 3 states he has to cover. Many ML scouts have strong relationships with college coaches refer players to them.

Think about it, how does a coach in the south find and evaluate players from the north or across the country? Some coaches have their eyes and ears open in every state.

JMO.

quote:

IMO, the more you do the more chance of injury, and one reason why some college coaches recruit pitchers from colder climates.

If you don't pitch at all, I can guarantee that you won't get injured. Those colder climate pitchers like Matt Harvey are being recruited for their talent first. The northern climate stuff is secondary. All that said, we can disagree on what causes injury. Certainly overuse is a factor. Somehow a pitcher has to build arm strength. Pitching is one way to do that.

Mank10, this is a very good topic, I have seen the naturally talented kids get passed by the hard workers, the kids that hustle and have a passion for the game. I was actually advised by ex minor league player to move to Florida so my son could play more ball. It seemed a bit of a rash idea to me. Thank goodness there are colleges up north to play ball after HS.

Of course talent comes first. But first someone has to notice that talent.

Many pitcher's arms here are done before they enter HS. Much of that is overuse. Tossing builds arm strength which is a lot different from actual pitching. Good core conditioning. Everything you work on while NOT pitching improves your pitching. And pitchers arms do need rest from the game. Most of the players who my son played with never went to college or drafted. Not because of lack of talent, but injury. Many played multiple positions, pitchers hurt doing something other than pitching. So my theory is the more you play or pitch (not toss)the greater chance of injury, and that icludes being involved in other sports while still playing baseball 365 days a year. JMO.

OS,
you have a pm.

Good post 08

OS8.. Your right about how a player with great tools should develop his talent. However if all things are equal, between 2 players with great eye hand cordination and quick twitch muscle response, coupled with a great work ethic. If I were a coach or scout I would select the player with the 4000 extra at bats.

My son attended a camp at USC during the summer. The two "pitchers" from India (one was a lefty who threw in the upper 80's)signed a minor league contract were working out. Those guys are going no where!

Certainly the pressure/exposure to game situations needs to be factored into the equation... A possible 6th tool

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Think about it, how does a coach in the south find and evaluate players from the north or across the country?

PG as an example comes to mind

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Think about it, how does a coach in the south find and evaluate players from the north or across the country?

PG as an example comes to mind

Another example is to have a summer team that travels some, and also participates in at least one of the amateur affilates national tournament, such as Dixie, NABF, etc.

Also, many northern coaches throughout the years have moved south and they maintain relationships with their coaching networks and scouting networks from the north.

quote:

Also, many northern coaches throughout the years have moved south and they maintain relationships with their coaching networks and scouting networks from the north.

I know a few of those. THe recruiting coordinator who signed my son to UL-Lafayette was the former head coach at Marist in NY. He just left UL for Kansas U. for the same job and more $$$.

Talent wins out almost always. Hard work is required, but talented players know how to work hard too. The longer a player stays healthy the closer to his potential he can be. I think genetics has a strong role in not only talent or playability, but durability.

Sorry, My computer is down @ home and I have to run to the office to keep pace on this subject. We have some "Talented" players that excel in certain parts of their game. IE, Talented Hitters...Skilled pitchers fielders... Can the skills learned from Professional Coaches take a player over the top?? I had to dig this qoute up from the "Godfather" talking about a "talented" and how she aquired the skills to be great!! EDITED VERSION!!

Jack Woltz: Now you listen to me, you smooth-talking -----. Let me lay it on the line for you and your boss, whoever he is: Johnny Fontane will never get that movie. I don't care who comes out of the woodwork!
Tom Hagen: I'm German-Irish.
Jack Woltz: Well, lemme tell ya something, my friend that You don't understand. Johnny Fontane never gets that movie. That part is perfect for him, it'll make him a big star, and I'm gonna run him out of the business - and let me tell you why: Johnny Fontane ruined one of Woltz International's most valuable proteges. For three years we had her under contract - singing lessons, dancing lessons, acting lessons. I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was gonna make her a big star. And let me be even more frank, just to show you that I'm not a hard-hearted man, and that it's not all dollars and cents: She was beautiful; she was innocent. She was the greatest piece of --- I've ever had, and I've had it all over the world. And then Johnny Fontane comes along with his olive oil voice and charm, and she runs off. She threw it all away just to make me look ridiculous! And a man in my position can't afford to be made to look ridiculous! No you get the out of here. And you tell your boss that if he wants to try any rough stuff that I ain't no band leader. Yeah, I heard that story.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
I quess my question to the masses would be. When does talent arrive if at all. Are you over the hill talent wise at 12 or can talent come into play later?

There are many examples of players who were late bloomers, their talent shining when their bodies developed. I am really uncomfortable with the concept of identifying "talent" at the younger ages for a number of reasons, chief amongst them the propensity of adults to overuse this talent, burning out the kid, and in the process discouraging other kids who are biding their time (late bloomers).

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by OnePlayer'sPop:
RJM,

I love your post!

But...(don't ya'llins just love that part) you forgot to mention the part that zombywoof mentioned when he referred to "...attitude and willing to work hard..."..

THAT is what separates the NEXT level at EACH level and in many(most) instances it is fleeting!

This is always an interesting conversation but the answer is that it (talent) is always a combination of natural ability (genes) and skill development. How do I know this? Why do the majority of baseball players come from California, Florida, and Texas? Is it because the gene pool in those states is talent rich? I think not. bbscout was the first one to identify this in my mind. He suggested some kids in California had 3000 or 4000 more at bats than someone comparable in the northeast when they enter college. That is a huge disparity.

Baseball genes are spread equally throughout the US population and across every state. The opportunity to develop is not. Same thing in other sports as well. Why do more hockey players come from Minnesota or the northeast rather than say California, Texas, or Florida?

I disagree slightly with your assessment of baseball genes being spread equally, and that the extra at- bats are the main difference.

Obviously, more at-bats can increase skill level, but it is no guarantee, as we all know.

Here is another theory.

It would be fair to say that there are many great athletes that gravitate to CA, TX and FL because of the weather. Whether it be college or pros or Olympic athletes, more of them tend to move to and live in the warmer climates. They tend to stay there, maybe marry someone who also may have an athletic background, have children who then gain the genetic advantage as well as the ability to train year-round. This has been going on for at least 2-3 generations, maybe more?

This is not to say that other areas do not produce great athletes. In fact, the parents, grandparents of many warm-weather athletes are from the Midwest, Northeast, etc.

This is not unlike the theory that says that taller, athletic people earn more money, get more promotions, etc. Their children will then inherit not only those genes, but will also inherit the additional opportunities that their parents wealth creates for them.

If you look at the large number of great athletes whose children also became great athletes,(Bonds,Griffey, Mannings,etc), is it the genes or the environment?

I'm not an anthopologist, but I do believe that there is much more to this than just extra at-bats and good weather.

Welcome other comments!

quote:

4000 additional potentially "flawed" at bats do nothing except fill a stat sheet.

No kidding. You seem to be animated by certain things. No one ever said imperfect practice makes perfect - only a knucklehead would suggest that.

I cited bbscout for my number (three to four thousand) and perhaps you know more than all the scouts out there. You never answered the other part of my assertion - why don't all the hockey players come from the same warm-weather states? Obviously, skill development has nothing to do with it

Btw, I have seen you argue more than once that getting on a highly competitive travel team is important. If all it takes is tee work, soft tossing, and bp with wood - why bother?

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Btw, I have seen you argue more than once that getting on a highly competitive travel team is important. If all it takes is tee work, soft tossing, and bp with wood - why bother?

Exposure

Guess removing useless input is best.

In America, all States are exposed to baseball, especially in the northern and eastern regions where the original MLB teams were located?

One of many fascinating subjects here to me.

The question is clouded by perspective.

As the boys are growing up, the talented boys that succeed are seen as not working.

The boys with less talent that work hard gain some success, but, they bear some resentment toward the more talented because it appears their success is unearned.

In the brief time I have been fortunate to observe the minor leagues, one of the things that sticks out the most is the abundance of those talented players who demonstrate the work ethic that we often attribute only to the less talented.

Talent and work ethic are not mutually exclusive traits as some would like to believe.

The players with the talent AND work hard will be successful.

So, hard work is the answer for the young players whose talent level has not been fully developed.

I don't think the 3-4K holds true for everyone. Those with high draft slots are closer to it than others, their age may be the determining factor.

I remember getting out of what bbscout stated was that was what milb gauges before a player might be ready, and position players may be better off doing that time in college rather than in the low rookie leagues.

BTW, something very interesting I have seen, some college players get higher picks who were not power hitters, rather very disciplined with pitch selection and knew how to work each pitcher to the full count, over those who were HR hitters but not disciplined.

quote:

Maybe it has to do with what kids are used to growing up with. In America, all States are exposed to baseball, especially in the northern and eastern regions where the original MLB teams were located?

Same with hockey.

Why isn't Ohio producing about the same number of pro or D1 baseball players as Florida which has a comparable population size? Interestingly enough, I would argue that most of the gene pool in Florida is from the northeast (NY, NJ, PA, Oh, Mich, and Ill). If we trace that back, we will find that Europe (poland, russia, ireland, italy, germany, GB, and so forth) is probably a good place to find the athletically "gifted" gene pool for baseball.

Not sure what we are arguing about. All I know is you made a really big deal out of the number I cited.

If what you are arguing is really about "upside" then where you grew up is irrelvant imho. Justin Morneau an AL MVP grew up in Canada.

I think an important advantage of growing up in the warm weather is that it makes it easier to project. Does that mean the "projectible" player will turn out to be the best? Of course not, imho.

I agree with BUM.
The reason Canada produces so many great Hockey players is the weather but also the sub structure that has built up over the years. Our minor hockey systems are the best in the world. The nation has adopted Hockey as its national sport. There are more hockey arenas here than BB parks. Talent is recognized at very young ages and all the way up the ladder. As kids develop they are recruited into the top teams with expert coaches. Skills are developed and talented kids usually with hard work become the most skilled.
The most exciting Hockey player I ever saw was a kid named Bobby Sheehan from Boston. He had more talent than anyone I ever watched. He also was the most undisciplined and never lasted in the NHL. He was an example of a guy who didn't have to work as hard as others and still showed amazing skills.

Can't speak for any other state, but if you watch rosters you will find huge numbers of hispanic players, who come from families that live and die for baseball more than anyone I know. These kids are extemely talented and make for good competition, which in turn makes everyone else more competitive. Do they have better genes?

TPM I have seen lots of Hispanics that are not stellar BB guys. 2 tried out for our HS team a few years back and they didn't come close. Also seen this in college with players from the Academy of BB.
I think they get great exposure and a deep passion for the game. They also have good motivation to make it in BB.
I have never believed genes show up in all your offspring but maybe in some. There is also the deire factor.

A couple of years ago on one of ESPN's talk shows the roundtable discussing was where athletes from different sports come from. It followed a week where Barry Larkin mentioned on a baseball broadcast while discussing blacks and baseball, he couldn't get his son to play baseball. His son said it isn't cool for brothers to play baseball. His son plays basketball.

In the conversation John Saunders brought up motivation. Saunders was a major college athlete. He's also made a ton of money working for ESPN and ABC. He said his kids have the physical talent. They play high school sports. But they don't have the motivation or passion to do the work to get to the next level due to the living environment they've been handed. He didn't say spoiled. He implied it.

Motivation is the main factor that drives kids to develop their talent .

"Hard work will beat talent IF talent does not work hard."

That saying has been around a long time.

Well I have seen lots of hispanic young players who were very good as young players from around here, some have been successful and some not. A lot has to do with our culture, not sure if that is another reason why you will find lots talent. Sometimes it's not how much yuo play, but who you play.
My point was that growing up here son had lots of excellent competition to play against even as a youngsters 8-10.
FWIW, we've had many picks here (out of HS) who have not yet made it to MLB as yet where I have seen others from around the country move farther ahead. My beleif is it is because of the exposure and being top talents in the country at the time of their draft. Many kids also went onto good D1 schools where their baseball careers ended when school ended.
JMO.

Interesting observation about Hispanic players.
But, it just goes to prove my point about geography and genetics.

If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

quote:

Originally posted by gitnby:
If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

Really

I guess us Northerners need a little baseball passion in our blood, should put the skirts away, and learn to deal with the cold.

Bring your group of Dominicans up here and we'll see how much they can work on their game from November til March. My guess is they'd get here and start a Dominican Bobsled team.

quote:

Originally posted by gitnby:
If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

I dont believe that really. Part of the Dominicans drive for baseball is to escape the poverty from where many of them live. Their passion for baseball and that factor contribute to their success. If they lived here in America with all the distractions and three square meals a day and cold weather as in Minnesota I think you they might not be as good. JMO

Neil,

Should you be interested in having your son
be around those with baseball talent and skill and are good people, may I suggest a wonderful area in Madison, and readily near Lodi

At the Duck Pond

Cheers
Bear

Pretty easy to be driven to succeed at a game when you face everyday what many of those kids face. Plus how many go to college instead of pro ball? You can get them for a pack of nabs and a plane ticket and if they wash out you just send them back. If college baseball was not an option for kids in our country how many would be drafted that are not right now?

quote:

Originally posted by gitnby:
Interesting observation about Hispanic players.
But, it just goes to prove my point about geography and genetics.

If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

I am not sure of your point, but here's mine.

I remember at 13-14 a player in our league named Juan Hernandez. Juan was one of those kids who
could hit everything and fast as lightening, first time I remember scouts coming to games. You know how those scouts love those speedy hispanic players. People talked about Juan, he was the next first rounder.
Last I heard Juan ended up at Juco and that's all she wrote. But my point is that my player loved pitching to Juan and I am sure that because of that he got exposure from the many many scouts that work and reside here in South Florida. Those types of things contribute to why Florida produces top players, not year round baseball, exposure. I am not even going to say that we have the BEST players, just those that get lots of exposure, maybe those in other states do not. When our MLB area rep came here when son was a sophmore, he told us he had been watching him since he was in middle school.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Cardinals and the Marlins draft many South Florida players. I could say the same for some others that I know who get drafted from here, with 11 organizations making this state their home for spring training, kids get LOTS of attention.