Is it time for Tony LaRussa to just move on?

From the outside looking in, I think he is a great on field manager. I think the Cardinals have been spoiled the last few years in their uncompetitive division, and find themselves chasing another club for the first time in a while. Their pitching is solid, but their offense is weak in a few areas. Their defense has been okay and little suspect on the left side. LaRussa is a "my way or the highway" kind of coach, and I think that is what is rubbing these up-and-comers the wrong way. He is a smart guy, and he'll figure out what he needs to do to get them winning next year. I'm not a Cardinals fan. LaRussa would be a top 3 pick for managers in my book.

This is kind of a tough question for me.
First, not sure one can blame TLR for all the issues going on, he has had to deal with the hand dealt to him. He doesn't play, only manages, the players are responsible for what goes on in a game. I read an interview where an Astros player stated they looked like a team on the field that didn't want to be there.

They (management) signed 2 pitchers (Penny and Suppan) this year who haven't been worth their weight in salt (both injured Penny hasn't played all year). Injuries, back up catcher (LaRue) for Molina hurt in the fight with the Reds and 3b man out almost all season, Otavino with tear in shoulder, relief pitchers on and off the DL, then they traded one of their best hitters (Ludwick) for Westbrook as the teams trading for players they really wanted in July wanted too much (top prospects). The AAA, AA teams are in playoffs, so they are reluctant to call up players who may bring relief in september. It is interesting to watch other teams call up young pitchers to give their starting rotation some more time to recover, while the Cards do not, I think Carpenter and Wainright, Garcia (first full season in ML) are toasted. They traded last year top prospects for Holiday and for a player that is not even playing on the team anymore, depleting the farm of players who could have contributed this season and playing for other ML teams. TLR, on his assistance brought in former players (miles, winn) over those that had been waiting to get called up, he's one of those guys who prefers "experience" to unproven talent on the ML field. While they should have been giving those 40 man AAA or AA players some experience on the big field, on and off, during the early part of the season, they didn't. The Colby/TLR issue hasn't helped, this has been going on forever. Colby is still under control of the organization, not sure why he feels the need to not talk to management privately instead of letting out his feelings through the press and his dad's comments all over message boards about the internal issues between the two. Albert (who I believe is not really in the best of health himself this year) stated in an interview if the player doesn't want to play for STL, trade him. Then there is a battle going on between what the scouting/farm director wants and what the ML manager wants.

Bottom line, if there is upset in the clubhouse, there is not going to be production on the field.

TLR has also has gone on record to say he has never been in this situation and not sure how to overcome it. Regardless he is for sure one of the best ML managers and certainly will end up in the HOF.

I have always hoped that my player would get to play under the team of TLR/Duncan, not sure if that will happen. Not sure if a younger, more patient manager (used to working with rookies) would be in the best interest of the organization or not, or take a hit for another season to have them develop on the field, something they will have to figure out come this fall.

fenwaysouth and TPM,

I tend to agree with both of you, in that Tony LaRussa is certainly on of the smartest managers to come down the pike and has already clinched a Hall of Fame spot. At the same time I think his confidence in his own ability to out-think the guy in the other dugout has at times caused him to overplay certain things and situations with his endless use of left-right matchups and double switches, as well as radical ideas such as batting the pitcher eighth. While we , as fenwaysouth said,are on the outside looking in, I can't for the life of me figure out why he uses Rasmus the way he does. The offense has been sporatic and at times extremely poor but he leaves a young developing player with a mid800's OPS who is one of the team's few basestealing and power threats on the bench. I know this is frustrating to Rasmus and the reason he is all riled up.

It may be partially that Rasmus has a bad attitude or doesn't work hard but in some ways its ironic that Albert called him out saying" that he can't understand how a player wouldn't want to be on a first place team", when free agents leave first place teams all the time and the very threat of leaving is the very thing that is going to get Albert himself a huge contract. If a player is not happy and everyday is miserable then he has just as much right to want to be traded as Albert has to leave via free agency.

By the way TPM you really know that organization and I feel in most cases it would be a great thing to be a pitcher and play for LaRussa/Duncan.

It could be time for LaRussa to go. It could be somewhat similar where he has to leave like Torre had to after the Yankees hit that 7 year dry spell of not winning it all.

Tony Larussa's managerial skills have never been in question before and I think it is crazy to do so now.
The last I checked Colby Rasmus was an "up and coming" star; he needs to be a little more humble and get along with his manager.
The Cards callapse from my point of view is more about their lack of team hitting in the last 2 to 3 weeks. Is Larussa the problem or is it McGuire?
Is Larussa the problem or is Rasmus?

TPM,
I'm "Old School" in that I also believe young guys should listen and learn until they've earned the right to go to the press. More than anything else I was just trying to see what others opinions on the whole situation are by kind of playing the devil's advocate. Very interesting to get your take on these problems. Probably if the Cardinals had kept winning this stuff would be mostly swept under the rug. I had not heard about Rasmus's dad making public statements. Very interesting! There are usually other factors that the public such as myself don't hear about. I think St. Louis would be crazy to let Albert leave almost no matter what the cost. Even if Tony L. was to leave, I feel he would be in great demand and would have his pick of jobs.

fsmjunior,
It will be interesting to see if McGwire is back but I have a feeling if LaRussa stays he will return. Tony has probably more power than any manager in baseball and that is why it is so interesting when problems pop up.

Interesting about the new hitting coach and the team not hitting well this year, I heard in years past that Albert worked with the young guys that came up. Some say the team has never been the same since they fired WJ.

Most of what I know is not from inside, the scout.com board for the cardinals is the most active I know of, and those fans have a lot to say about how they feel and it's not pretty right now. Get rid of TLR, keep TLR, give him an front office job, clean house, who knows what is right or wrong. But to have so much controvesy over an experienced manager and a young player is not good. In the news it was stated that TLR threatened to put Colby in AAA (because he showed up late to practice), and that's when things started getting more bitter, hey it happens everyday in AAA, young players get sent down, for many reasons. Then something about Colby and his dad giving hitting clinics to disguise the real purpose to work with Colby (and not the hitting coach). Too much TLR and Colby in the news, Colby says he didn't say this, then he says he meant that, TLR says ask Colby what he meant, no he wasn't upset about the hitting stuff. Now Albert speaking up against Colby (never heard Albert say a word against any player). It's a mess. He said this he said that. Then Carp on national TV chewing out his team mate cause he grabbed the wrong glove and he had to wait to throw his first pitch, too much going on in STL these days!

I did like the shaving of the heads to show team unity but that was before the Colby stuff got out. From what I heard TLR decided to let the team figure it out, as he couldn't.

I do really feel badly as injuries have really hurt them. Molina is wiped out. The best back up catcher (was taken out by Morgan), not hurt but sent back to AAA (for playoffs). They had to send a guy straight up from AA (first time ever when LaRue went down and the third string guy got smashed before Morgan got to him) who hit a HR his second at bat but sent him back down to AAA. My opinion leave him (AA catcher) there and let him learn from Molina.

In the meantime, every cardinal milb team but one has made playoffs with Johnson City winning the championship for the Appalachian League. Memphis last year was the PCL champions and again in playoffs. But the Cardinal farm system was ranked near 30 (30 as being the worst), in terms of lacking top prospects but the idea the farm director says is you don't need the first or second pick of the draft every year to put a good product on the field or the ML. The Cards have always "filled in" with trades (having had to have late first round picks), that's just not working this year, just doesn't seem like a team that wants to win. Now they are saying get rif of Matt Holiday.

Since Colby is essentially the Scouting Directors first year player big story drafted and made the team, it gets interesting. He's a really fair guy, the kids really like him alot. He's brought the farm up to a losing one to a winning one.

Either way, it is a good organization, they have been good to my pitcher, everyone gets a chance to prove themselves, even when you mess up, look at milb roster teams and even late something round guys have roles. Great fans as well, and best of all, for us, spring training is 40 miles from home.

TPM,

The Cardinals have had a reputation for many decades of being a well run organization since the days of Branch Rickey and they have won more than their share of championships. That's a good organization for your son especially as a pitcher to be in. Duncan is now recognized as one of, if not the best pitching coaches in BB. He seems to work miracles with giving guys second life in their careers after problems with other teams. They also have a smart and loyal fan base. I guess their only limitation was being a mid payroll team for much of the time. But by having smart people running the organization that can often be over come. Duncan takes smart retreds who are acquired cheaply and often helps make them valuable again. Of course you want those fine young pitchers from the farm also.

The Rasmus situation may be rooted in the new regime of players butting heads with old school managers.

Entitlement????

Yup look at Carp's makeover. That's why they took in Penny and Suppan, but with injuries (funny how those things come up after a team signs you) it never happened. Suppan has been in, he has been meh.

Westbrook, I like him, but Duncan has his work cut out. He would have been ok if the team could produce runs.

Duncan has said positive things to son, he is the cardinal way type of pitcher, sinker groundballer, let your defense work, I guess that's why they drafted him. Those two won't be around forever, just hope that son does get a chance to get to know both, what a story to tell your kids!

Here is a view of the situation from St Louis.

--The team quit on Tony and he probably needs to move on. I hope he does quit after this year because he will never be fired. I actually wish he would have been fired last Thursday so we could have hit the Reds series with a little momentum, not that it wasnt too lat already.

--Most of the success the team has had was because of the old GM Walt Jockety. We won in 96, Tony's first year after the team was sold by AB. A few lean years then we took off in 2000 when Jockety took hold and had his players here. Great run through 2006, then Jockety was forced out. The team hasnt done much since then. Dont let last year fool you. As bad as the Cardinals have choked this year, the Cubs did the same thing last year, so it was almost impossible to not win the division. Look what happened in the playoffs. Now look at the sucess Walt is having in Cincy, and that team is fun to watch, unlike our boring team.

--We are kind of top heavy on "superstars". Albert, Holliday, Car, Waino, and a bunch of scrubs. You cant win with the infield we have now, Pujols cant do it all.

--Trading Ludwick tore the heart out of the team. Getting Westbrook wasnt bad, but we way overpaid for him. John Jay has come back down to earth and is not quite the ballplayer Ludwick is. Look at the timing of that trade as to when the Cardinals went into the tank.

--Colby; LaRussa always has to have a whipping boy and he made it Rasmus. He rides his *** constantly and Colby has the personality that cant perform that way. Sad to say he needs to coddled a little bit. Remember, there is only one reason Rolen is not here anymore, and his name is Tony LaRussa. Just ask him, edmonds, Brian Jordan, etc. The list goes on and on.

--He plays favorites. I will win the lottery before I see Yadier Molina run out a ground ball. Good behind the plate but no hustle. His buddy Albert can watch every ball like a home run every time and never get in trouble. Granted he is Albert, but it is pretty rough to see him watch a ball hit to the wall like it is a home run, then get thrown out at second.

--Bottom line, he needs to go, but it is scary to think we may revert back to the days of 1988 to 1995. But worth the risk.

You said a mouthful, much of which is well perceived.

Give up on your manager, but not your fans.

If they keep Albert and company (Holiday, Molina, Carp, etc.), without a doubt the team will be made up of younger cheaper players, not sure if that is what TLR could work with. I know that some say change the manager with one who is used to working with the young guys, and stop bringing in the older guys let go by other teams.

Jay got moved up quickly and then sat in AAA for 2+ years. I say, move them up or move them out.

It will be interesting after reading this thread to see how the game goes tonight.

Mizzoubaseball,

This is the other side of the coin. I have noticed over the years that Tony has had feuds with several players that were stars (Rolen, Edmonds, Gant) or former stars. I wonder if the amount of control he exerts and the micromanaging he does tends to rub certain veterans raw? Sometimes people get the idea that he makes some moves just to show how intelligent he is.

I believe a manager must adapt somewhat to different personalities. Leo Durocher stated in his autobiography that he always treated the young Willie Mays with kid gloves and coddled him because he felt it put money in everyone's pocket when they won. Tony just might not be capable of that and it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Sort of an exciting game...lots of action!

TLR is a micromanager. There aren't many players that can relate to him. He sometimes out thinks himself. A lawyer, what else can I say? The pitcher in the eight hole is a good example. The total opposite currently managing is a guy like Terry Francona, he relates well to the average player and the super stars. Chuck Tanner from the World Series Pirates (yep they were once a class team), I would put in the same category. Now if you want the perfect mix of intelligence and a players manager then I'd list Jim Leyland or Joe Madden right at the top. Now I don't think Dusty Baker has a clue but he's about to win with his third different team. Manager's really are dispensible and a dime a dozen. They get recycled all the time. Once you are in the good ole boys club...you will always have a job. Winning is more about talent than it is intelligence. TLR has had alot of talent come his way, thanks to ST.Louis' player development.

With regards to the original question, when the team stops winning....it's time for the manager to go. Walt is not there to protect him. He should probably go. St Louis fans are probably the best in the land and one reason TLR may feel emboldened to try to stick around. TLR is used to calling all the shots.......he's not ready to call it quits yet. He feeds off the stress.

PA Dino,

Another guy I think can handle all types of players is Bobby Cox. You're definitely right about Francona in that high stress Boston market. Many naysayers predicted he wouldn't last there two years but now he seems to be a fixture.

Hold on Tony! Rasmus AND Albert go deep!

Maybe they read this topic today!

Madden claims he had to adjust his managerial style due to working with very young players. He had to come down to their level as young rookies learning the ML game. He certainly has found the formula for success.

I believe that the surge in wins and losses is not a result of lack of talent, but rather chemistry, change one, two players and you can throw off the whole team. What do winning teams ususally say, we all worked together to get here. So sometimes, as I said the manager has to work with what is given him, but the sign of a good one is how he adjusts to the changes as well as how the team does too. The changes in the cardinals team (week to week) has been unusual due to injuries.

And yes true, TLR tends to micro manage probably when he should just let the team do the work.

As a Cardinal fan I think this analysis on the whole may be a little too deep..

You simply cannot get the type of offensive production they are getting out of the left side of the IF plus 2B and be competitive. Its truely horrific. Freese injury was the key... IMHO. Then they trade away Ludwick so they can have an arm as much for next year as this one and you have your recipe for disaster.

TPM.. you mentioned Jockety.. I friend of mine who used to work in the organization at a high level once told me and I quote "TLR threw Walt under the bus".

I remember when Pat Riley left the Lakers he said no matter how good of a coach you are, and how good you are of motivating players, at some point they've heard everything you have to say and tune you out. That's when it's time to leave. I remember Riley used to come up with different ways to motivate the Lakers each year. When he ran out of ideas they players tuned him out.

quote:

Originally posted by bothsportsdad:
As a Cardinal fan I think this analysis on the whole may be a little too deep..

You simply cannot get the type of offensive production they are getting out of the left side of the IF plus 2B and be competitive. Its truely horrific. Freese injury was the key... IMHO. Then they trade away Ludwick so they can have an arm as much for next year as this one and you have your recipe for disaster.

TPM.. you mentioned Jockety.. I friend of mine who used to work in the organization at a high level once told me and I quote "TLR threw Walt under the bus".

I know nothing about Jockety, just heard things haven't been the same since he has been gone. My current relationship with the Cards didn't start until 2007.

Losing Freese hurt, along with trading Ludwick, however, these things I don't see as the fault of TLR.