Smoke, I do exactly the same thing. I score the game on GC so a) people who can't get to the game can follow remotely and b) it makes it easier for coach to input stats, spray charts, etc. I like knowing that my H/E calls are not final or necessarily expert and I'm aware of the bias that may creep in. Sometimes that's in reverse. Last game my kid reached base on a slow roller to SS, whose throw to 1B was a little off. I had an E. I could see from the line score in the newspaper that the coach had scored that as a hit, so I asked the kid about it. He said he beat the throw by half a step.
Kevin A posted:
As a former catcher and a father of a current catcher..... What makes a person qualified to determine what "ordinary effort" is?
Now there’s a great question and it deserves a thoughtful answer. 1st of all what everyone has to understand is, the definition of Ordinary Effort in OBR isn’t in any other rule set I know of, but since this is HSBBW let’s stick with that venue. In the NFHS rule book, you don’t see much about ordinary effort. And when you do, there’s no definition because that was something MLB came up with to help scorers of professional games. So right off the gitgo, someone who only uses the NFHS rulebook and doesn’t understand how the rules are applied, is at a distinct advantage because they’re only guessing at what ordinary effort means.
What folks like myself who have been at this scoring stuff for quite a while do, is look to OBR as the “bible” when it comes to trying to interpret what something means in the rule book. FI, here’s the NFHS rule about wild pitches and the OBR rule for the same thing.
I you look closely they say pretty much the same thing, except for that underline part. Let me tell ya, there’s not a whole lot of pitches that hit ground before they reach the plate! That means every pitch touching the ground after it reaches the front of the plate requires a judgement. The problem with that is, people like yourself and a great many coaches who expect a lot, are gonna charge them as PBs if a runner advances. But that judgement isn’t required in games played under OBR. If the pitch touches the dirt and a runner advances, it’s a no-brainer. WP.
I choose to use the guidelines in OBR because it only makes sense to me that if the most knowledgeable people in the game agree that the best catchers in the world shouldn’t be expected to make that play, kids in HS shouldn’t either.
NFHS 6-1 A wild pitch shall be charged in the summary to the pitcher when a ball legally delivered to the batter is so high, or so low (including any pitch that touches the ground in front of home plate) or so far away from home plate that the catcher does not stop or control it with ordinary effort so that the batter-runner advances to first base or any runner advances a base.
OBR 9.13(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball is so high, so wide or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance.
Part of that ordinary effort definition gives a lot of people who score at lower levels a lot of trouble is where it talks about what “a fielder of average skill is”. It talks about the average player in that league or classifications of leagues which in baseball played under OBR is pretty simple. There’s the 2 leagues in MLB, and the 4 in MilB. IOW, the average player in AAA ball is different than AA, A, and the Rookie leagues. That’s what the definition was for, and when it’s extrapolated for HS ball, the problems start. Why? Because there’s a huge difference in Fr, JV, and V HS baseball. Then on top of that, there’s often a huge difference between school divisions. IOW, the average SS in the smallest school division is not likely to be as good as the average SS in the largest school division. Keep in mind that doesn’t mean a CF in the smallest division can’t be better than the best one in the largest division. It’s the average we’re talking about. Now let’s throw in that school’s often play non-league games across divisions, i.e. a DI team playing a DIV team. Now what do you do?
Typically, not always but typically, what the better scorers will do is treat V teams pretty much the same, and do the same with JV and Fr teams, and depend on their experience with seeing a lot of games at that level to make the best judgements possible. And that’s where the next problem shows itself.
I’ve been scoring HS games since 2000, and haven’t had a child on a team I scored for since 2004. I often score for the Fr/JV teams in the summer to keep my understanding about the different level of play sharp, and believe me, the differences are glaring. Unfortunately, most schools don’t have the advantage of having a scorer similar to me. What’s typical is a parent who likely hasn’t spent more than a year or two scoring games at any HS level. It also isn’t unusual to have a player or student manager scoring the game, and for them to have scored games at any 1 level for more than a year is also unusual.
So now you’re stuck with a scorer who may be the most conscientious person in the world but just doesn’t have the experience to make the best judgements. But even that can be overcome by consistency. Having the same person scoring the games will eventually give that person the experience that makes them a better scorer.
ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.
(Ordinary Effort) Comment: This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 9.05(a)(3) (Rule 10.05(a)(3)), 9.05(a)(4) (Rule 10.05(a)(4)), 9.05(a)(6) (Rule 10.05(a)(6)), 9.05(b)(3) (Base Hits) (Rule 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits)); 9.08(b) (Sacrifices) (Rule 10.08(b)) (Sacrifices)); 9.12(a)(1) Comment ((Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment), 9.12(d)(2) (Errors) ((Rule 10.12(d)(2) (Errors)); and 9.13(a), 9.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls) (Rule 10.13(a)), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Definition of Terms, Infield Fly), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.
Just because a parent has watched his kid play ball doesn't make him an official scorer! On a throw coming in to the catcher with a runner bearing down on him those throws are not the easiest to handle. Often they move at the bounce giving very little reaction time to a catcher. The hit dirt/grass edges and bounch, etc. Plus a catcher may rush the catch/tag knowing the runner has the jump. Errors on catchers are typically throw away plays, fastball is dropped or clips the glove or catcher tries to pick the ball instead of blocking allowing runners to advance. To hang an E on a catcher due to what YOU believe is an easy routine bounce isn't very objective. What if a single is hit to the outfield with a guy on third. Play at home runner rounds first. Catcher instead of trying to pick said bounced throw blocks the throw like a pitch to stop ball and throw out said runner going to second. In your mind you felt the catcher had a play at the runner coming home. Do you mark him as an error??
That is why I don't worry about score books kept by parents. Very few of them are familiar with the rules and, understandably, driven by emotions. May be hesitant to not give their child an E or a friend's child. I don't worry about any one else's kids errors but my own. I know what errors he may have made and will address with him at the proper time. He can pick behind the plate with the best of them. Some coaches yell "great pick". I yell...."Your not playing first base. BLOCK".
I am expect more from him and what may not be an error doesn't mean it is correct.
Your feelings are exactly what I was talking about. You don’t care what the rulebook says, you’re concerned with what you THINK should happen. That’s fine by me. I’m always in “discussions” with coaches, players, and parents about how I scored something. I always listen, then explain why I scored something like I did. If they can convince me I misapplied a rule, or prove to me I didn’t have the best vantage point for a particular play but someone who did convinces me I was wrong, I’ll change it. Over the years I haven’t changed many because normally when I explain why I marked it the way I did, the other person agrees.
SanDiegoRealist posted:I would also look at what the coach was telling the runner to do. If he was waving him in then it's a judgement call IMO, but if he slowed him down then the runner advanced after the boot...E8
Honestly, minus having actually seen R2 hesitate or otherwise having exhibited a clear intention of holding up at third before the boot, I'm going on the assumption that a clean single scores any runner at second or third and only looking at the error in terms of whether it allowed the B/R to reach second, therefore calling R2's run immediately earned.
Stats4Gnats posted:Kevin A posted:
As a former catcher and a father of a current catcher..... What makes a person qualified to determine what "ordinary effort" is?
Now there’s a great question and it deserves a thoughtful answer. 1st of all what everyone has to understand is, the definition of Ordinary Effort in OBR isn’t in any other rule set I know of, but since this is HSBBW let’s stick with that venue. In the NFHS rule book, you don’t see much about ordinary effort. And when you do, there’s no definition because that was something MLB came up with to help scorers of professional games. So right off the gitgo, someone who only uses the NFHS rulebook and doesn’t understand how the rules are applied, is at a distinct advantage because they’re only guessing at what ordinary effort means.
What folks like myself who have been at this scoring stuff for quite a while do, is look to OBR as the “bible” when it comes to trying to interpret what something means in the rule book. FI, here’s the NFHS rule about wild pitches and the OBR rule for the same thing.
I you look closely they say pretty much the same thing, except for that underline part. Let me tell ya, there’s not a whole lot of pitches that hit ground before they reach the plate! That means every pitch touching the ground after it reaches the front of the plate requires a judgement. The problem with that is, people like yourself and a great many coaches who expect a lot, are gonna charge them as PBs if a runner advances. But that judgement isn’t required in games played under OBR. If the pitch touches the dirt and a runner advances, it’s a no-brainer. WP.
I choose to use the guidelines in OBR because it only makes sense to me that if the most knowledgeable people in the game agree that the best catchers in the world shouldn’t be expected to make that play, kids in HS shouldn’t either.
NFHS 6-1 A wild pitch shall be charged in the summary to the pitcher when a ball legally delivered to the batter is so high, or so low (including any pitch that touches the ground in front of home plate) or so far away from home plate that the catcher does not stop or control it with ordinary effort so that the batter-runner advances to first base or any runner advances a base.
OBR 9.13(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball is so high, so wide or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance.
Part of that ordinary effort definition gives a lot of people who score at lower levels a lot of trouble is where it talks about what “a fielder of average skill is”. It talks about the average player in that league or classifications of leagues which in baseball played under OBR is pretty simple. There’s the 2 leagues in MLB, and the 4 in MilB. IOW, the average player in AAA ball is different than AA, A, and the Rookie leagues. That’s what the definition was for, and when it’s extrapolated for HS ball, the problems start. Why? Because there’s a huge difference in Fr, JV, and V HS baseball. Then on top of that, there’s often a huge difference between school divisions. IOW, the average SS in the smallest school division is not likely to be as good as the average SS in the largest school division. Keep in mind that doesn’t mean a CF in the smallest division can’t be better than the best one in the largest division. It’s the average we’re talking about. Now let’s throw in that school’s often play non-league games across divisions, i.e. a DI team playing a DIV team. Now what do you do?
Typically, not always but typically, what the better scorers will do is treat V teams pretty much the same, and do the same with JV and Fr teams, and depend on their experience with seeing a lot of games at that level to make the best judgements possible. And that’s where the next problem shows itself.
I’ve been scoring HS games since 2000, and haven’t had a child on a team I scored for since 2004. I often score for the Fr/JV teams in the summer to keep my understanding about the different level of play sharp, and believe me, the differences are glaring. Unfortunately, most schools don’t have the advantage of having a scorer similar to me. What’s typical is a parent who likely hasn’t spent more than a year or two scoring games at any HS level. It also isn’t unusual to have a player or student manager scoring the game, and for them to have scored games at any 1 level for more than a year is also unusual.
So now you’re stuck with a scorer who may be the most conscientious person in the world but just doesn’t have the experience to make the best judgements. But even that can be overcome by consistency. Having the same person scoring the games will eventually give that person the experience that makes them a better scorer.
ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.
(Ordinary Effort) Comment: This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 9.05(a)(3) (Rule 10.05(a)(3)), 9.05(a)(4) (Rule 10.05(a)(4)), 9.05(a)(6) (Rule 10.05(a)(6)), 9.05(b)(3) (Base Hits) (Rule 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits)); 9.08(b) (Sacrifices) (Rule 10.08(b)) (Sacrifices)); 9.12(a)(1) Comment ((Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment), 9.12(d)(2) (Errors) ((Rule 10.12(d)(2) (Errors)); and 9.13(a), 9.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls) (Rule 10.13(a)), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Definition of Terms, Infield Fly), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.
Just because a parent has watched his kid play ball doesn't make him an official scorer! On a throw coming in to the catcher with a runner bearing down on him those throws are not the easiest to handle. Often they move at the bounce giving very little reaction time to a catcher. The hit dirt/grass edges and bounch, etc. Plus a catcher may rush the catch/tag knowing the runner has the jump. Errors on catchers are typically throw away plays, fastball is dropped or clips the glove or catcher tries to pick the ball instead of blocking allowing runners to advance. To hang an E on a catcher due to what YOU believe is an easy routine bounce isn't very objective. What if a single is hit to the outfield with a guy on third. Play at home runner rounds first. Catcher instead of trying to pick said bounced throw blocks the throw like a pitch to stop ball and throw out said runner going to second. In your mind you felt the catcher had a play at the runner coming home. Do you mark him as an error??
That is why I don't worry about score books kept by parents. Very few of them are familiar with the rules and, understandably, driven by emotions. May be hesitant to not give their child an E or a friend's child. I don't worry about any one else's kids errors but my own. I know what errors he may have made and will address with him at the proper time. He can pick behind the plate with the best of them. Some coaches yell "great pick". I yell...."Your not playing first base. BLOCK".
I am expect more from him and what may not be an error doesn't mean it is correct.
Your feelings are exactly what I was talking about. You don’t care what the rulebook says, you’re concerned with what you THINK should happen. That’s fine by me. I’m always in “discussions” with coaches, players, and parents about how I scored something. I always listen, then explain why I scored something like I did. If they can convince me I misapplied a rule, or prove to me I didn’t have the best vantage point for a particular play but someone who did convinces me I was wrong, I’ll change it. Over the years I haven’t changed many because normally when I explain why I marked it the way I did, the other person agrees.
You seem to misconstrue my words. I care what the rule book says. What I don't care about is what some average parent keeping the score thinks what an error is or isn't. I have had scorers come up to me and ask me. Sometimes I know and will give an opinion and if I am not familiar with the scoring rule I will say so.
I prefer an experienced scorer do the book. The more knowledgeable the better. But there maybe times where the official call is that its on the pitcher. But I know and my son knows he should have had that ball. I have NEVER approached a coach or scorer and questioned a decision. May have discussed the particulars if they asked but I never attempted to make up or change someones mind. I dont worry what is an error or isn't. Do I care that the scorer gave the left fielder an error over the second baseman who tried to catch the throw? No. I only concern myself with my son, his play behind the plate and help him become a better receiver. Like I said...There maybe a pitch that is put on the pitcher as a wild pitch but something my son should have caught. And whose the hardest on him about those? He is. Let the coach address any other errors. Its not my job and all I am going to do talking about something is or isnt an error is make the kids parents near me uncomfortable.
The main reason I dont care is, many times the scorer just doesn't have the experience, knowledge or training. So I just concern myself with my son and cheer on the rest of the team...
2017LHPscrewball posted:Perfect timing for my question - assume a pop up to the right of, and behind, the mound several feet short of the grass. Pitcher starts to head that direction while the 2B moves in, all the time the SS is moving in. Lots of calling, but in the end they all chicken out and the ball simply drops to the ground with none of the three ever touching it. Is this an error, and if so how do you assign?
I got a "like" but no answer yet...any takers?
Kevin A posted:
You seem to misconstrue my words. I care what the rule book says. What I don't care about is what some average parent keeping the score thinks what an error is or isn't. I have had scorers come up to me and ask me. Sometimes I know and will give an opinion and if I am not familiar with the scoring rule I will say so.
I prefer an experienced scorer do the book. The more knowledgeable the better. But there maybe times where the official call is that its on the pitcher. But I know and my son knows he should have had that ball. I have NEVER approached a coach or scorer and questioned a decision. May have discussed the particulars if they asked but I never attempted to make up or change someones mind. I dont worry what is an error or isn't. Do I care that the scorer gave the left fielder an error over the second baseman who tried to catch the throw? No. I only concern myself with my son, his play behind the plate and help him become a better receiver. Like I said...There maybe a pitch that is put on the pitcher as a wild pitch but something my son should have caught. And whose the hardest on him about those? He is. Let the coach address any other errors. Its not my job and all I am going to do talking about something is or isnt an error is make the kids parents near me uncomfortable.
The main reason I dont care is, many times the scorer just doesn't have the experience, knowledge or training. So I just concern myself with my son and cheer on the rest of the team...
I don’t believe I misconstrued anything. You aren’t willing to accept what some average parent keeping the score thinks what an error is or isn't. The problem is, the rules say what records will be kept and you don’t get to choose who keeps score to get that done.
You say: But there maybe times where the official call is that its on the pitcher. But I know and my son knows he should have had that ball. That shows me you’re confusing the records as required by the rules and your personal feelings. They aren’t the same thing!
Obviously you do care about how the game is scored, and to me that’s great. You just don’t agree with some of the scoring rules, but believe me you aren’t alone! Unfortunately, the rules are what they are and everyone has to live with them.
If I had my druthers, all scorers at the HS level would be assigned, paid, and educated the same way umpires are, but that ain’t gonna happen any time soon. Around here an umpire gets I believe $65 per game. For a school with a JV team and a 26 game schedule with 13 games being at home, that’s $2,535 a year and doesn’t count the scrimmages. If the scorer only got $50, that’s another $650 a year. It’s a drop in the buck for some schools, but I suspect it’s a Hell of a lot of $$$$$ for the vast majority. So until then, people will have to live with what they have because records are gonna be kept.
On a slightly different note, since you’re a catcher’s dad you might get a hoot out of seeing some stats I do specifically for catchers. Go to https://www.infosports.com/sco...images/defense17.pdf and go down to page 22. I generated those stats to try to give catchers a little recognition for doing a thankless job.
I'm not Stats, so I'm not 100% sure, but I have E4 or maybe E Coach for not teaching them a good approach to that situation.
Unless you had 2 or more on base with less than 2 outs, of course.
2017LHPscrewball posted:Perfect timing for my question - assume a pop up to the right of, and behind, the mound several feet short of the grass. Pitcher starts to head that direction while the 2B moves in, all the time the SS is moving in. Lots of calling, but in the end they all chicken out and the ball simply drops to the ground with none of the three ever touching it. Is this an error, and if so how do you assign?
I'm a bit confused by "several feet short of the grass" but I'm assigning an error to whoever should have taken charge. If on 2b side and high enough, 2b gets the error. If ss was shouting and taking charge, ss gets the error. Again, not a SK but did stay at Holiday Inn Express last night.
cabbagedad posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:Perfect timing for my question - assume a pop up to the right of, and behind, the mound several feet short of the grass. Pitcher starts to head that direction while the 2B moves in, all the time the SS is moving in. Lots of calling, but in the end they all chicken out and the ball simply drops to the ground with none of the three ever touching it. Is this an error, and if so how do you assign?
I'm a bit confused by "several feet short of the grass" but I'm assigning an error to whoever should have taken charge. If on 2b side and high enough, 2b gets the error. If ss was shouting and taking charge, ss gets the error. Again, not a SK but did stay at Holiday Inn Express last night.
Assuming this is an error, I guess my question could be restated as to how you go about assigning the error. I had in my mind that perhaps the general priority of the players might come into play (i.e. SS has priority over 2B, CF has priority over other OFs, etc).
I also think there should be a "missed call" in the scoring system so when your son doesn't get that third strike call and the kid ends up hitting the next one out, it doesn't impact his ERA.
Thanks For sharing this information. It’s Nice..!!!