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21 replies

Is This Kosher?

Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
My son's 14U team is playing in the Western Region Little League tournament. The winner goes to the World Series in Michigan.

The format is pool play then single elimination bracket play for the top two teams in each of the two pools.

There were 12 teams total in the tournament. It was obvious from the start that my son's team was one of the two or three teams to beat. The other perhaps best team was in our pool and beat us 2-0 in a pitchers duel yesterday. Nobody else even got close to them.

We headed into the last day needing to win our fifth game for a chance to advance to bracket play, as long as the strongest team (Hawaii) won their last game against a pretty weak team, we would advance.

The problem is Hawaii had no consequence if they lost. They did not want to meet us again, since we almost beat them, they had incentive to blow the game.

That is just what they did. They pitched a kid in the third inning who had no idea what he was doing, and let 7 runs score on him without an out. They ended up losing (intentiaonally) 9-6.

Obviously, my son, who had a great tournament, feels cheated. He can't believe that they would boot the game just so they could avoid playing his team because they were afraid they would lose. He figures you gotta beat the best if you want to advance.

So, my question to those who perhaps have been there before:

Is it OK to throw a game in this situation so you won't face a team you think you might have a problem with?

Remember: we are talking 14 year olds here. Their baseball can be very very good, or very mediocre.

I know this: It was a very strange way to have the season end, winning the fifth game of pool play in an exciting 14-10 slugfest, only to wait six hours to see that another team is throwing a game to keep them out of advancing to bracket play.

So: Fair game throwing a game at that level, or will the baseball gods extract their revenge in the end?
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Lefty's DadLefty's Dad100+ posts
Bee's right. Anytime you get yourself in the position of having to rely on somebody else for help in tournament play, you're asking for heartbreak. If I was in the same position as Hawaii I would have saved my pitching for bracket play, too. The Hawaii coach's job is to give his team the best chance to win the tournament, not to insure that your team makes the finals.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
"Throw a game" is a pretty strong term

I would think they were saving arms and since the game for them was meaningless I can understand it.

To say that they layed down is wrong, perhaps you should congratulate the other coach--he played it smart and almost beat you anyway--losing 9-6 is not laying down and he saved arms

And if your son feels cheated because of what you are implanting in his thought process then you , sir, are doing your son a grave wrong,

By the way how did they "intentionally" lose the game ??
Last edited by TRhit
A AParent1,000+ posts
Had it been my team I would NOT have used my best pitches in a game that really had no impact on whether I would win the tournament or not. I would use Joe, not stud and HOPE to win.

Then I would have my best pitching nice and fresh for the tough game ahead.

To me this seesm like reasonable, logical and affective coaching.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
I see no problem with pitching a player that has little or no experience. If you lose you secure a more favored position in the bracket while saving your best arms. That seems the best of both worlds to me. Is it fair? Not only do I think it’s fair but I think its smart baseball. We should all be fortunate (or lucky) enough that we can control our placement in the brackets. Most of the time we must rely on the “luck of the draw” to determine our position. To me this is a good example of a game within the game. Your son will be exposed to this many times. I see it as an opportunity for you to set down with your son and explain that he must focus on those aspects of the game that he can control and let go of the things he cannot. Rob, if I were in your shoes I would feel the same frustration as you but .... there is no relief because there is no foul.
Fungo
Catch43Catch43500+ posts
I'm Jewish and throwing the game is not kosher. First of all, I think it's terrible that a young team gave up all hope and didn't even try to win. There's always a chance. Like they say, baseball is a game of inches.
Second of all, its worse that the coach let it happen. The coach should have replaced the pitcher after 4-5 runs were given up so fast.
Your son has every right to feel cheated. What went on was not fair.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Catch43,
Go back and reread, maybe you misunderstood the original post.
If the team had WON the first game, they would have been faced with a team (posters) who had a chance to beat them. So the coach took the chance on losing he game, to face weaker competition, to get to the championship. I think that is what he meant.
J jbbaseball500+ posts
I have coached teams in tournament play before. One of the most difficult decisions going into tourney play is setting up your pitching "rotation".
If I knew going into my last pool play game that I had already advanced, I would ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY set my pitching up so that our team would have the best opportunity to win in bracket play. Typically, that means throwing guys in that last pool play game that have little pitching experience.
Whoever mentioned that this is the "game within the game" hit it right on the head.
This strategy by the Hawaii coach is not only KOSHER, I'd like to shake his hand for being a good coach!
Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
Let me clarify:

I never would expect them to throw their best pitchers in the game. But I sure wouldn't expect them to let a kid twist on the mound for ten batters without getting an out.

Plus, we thought it odd when the third baseman threw a ball away to first, then the shortstop came over and high-fived him.

Were they intentionally losing? I sure can't prove it. But I ask you - If you were trying to win would you let a pitcher give up 7 runs without an out?

The Little League Pledge:

I trust in God
I love my country
And will respect its laws
I will play fair
And strive to win
But win or lose
I will always do my best

Sure, it is sappy. But They didn't live up to it. Not even close.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
The other perhaps best team was in our pool and beat us 2-0 in a pitchers duel yesterday. Nobody else even got close to them.


Rob, rather than focusing on your son(or you) feeling cheated, and over issues with the other team over which you have no control, why not focus on the fact that the other team beat yours straight up. Sometimes the other team is better and it is a lot more graceful to give them credit for doing what they needed to do, when they needed to do it. Unless your son is the very rare exception, he will have lots of disappointments in baseball. Blaming others might feel good temporarily. It does not get your son ready to manage the mental challenges the game presents as he continues to progress.
A AParent1,000+ posts
A couple of things I thought of during the day.

1-No game is a sure win. The team could just as easy lose in the final round to the worst team in the tournament - it does happen.

2-Losing is NEVER fun. Keep in mind you had your opportunity to beat this team. Yes, we can all understand the desire to have a rematch. But a rematch is no guarantee of a different outcome.

3- Perhaps they did not consider your team to be as big a threat as you felt you were. Winning can do that sometimes.

4- Even good pitchers can have a bad day. Perhaps this kid you claim was so bad is normally quite good.

5- Perhaps they anticipated going on to the next round and decided to take advantage of a easier match to get some kids off the bench and into the game - knowing it would not hurt their chances to move up.

As a parent of their players I would expect that they would use this game to get kids off the bench. And I would expect them to save the best arms for the final games. After all, they want to win, and they also want the bench warmers to get a chance to play

As a parent of your players I would crave a rematch. But I would not expect the other team to change their strategy to make that happen.
Last edited by AParent
Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
OK I get it... most people think I'm whining. Fair enough....

But one last question. Let's say they DID intentionally lose. Let's say the coach instructed the boys to boot a few balls and strike out instead of hit.

Would that be OK in your opinion, in order to ensure weaker competition in bracket play?

That was really what I was asking.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
rob, I'd have felt bad for a little while too, but after the post game meeting was over my thoughts would be "just wait until next year"

it has been quite a while since we played those kinds of tournys, but it was not uncommon then for a team who had "clinched" an advance out of pool play to stay at the hotel, accept the forfiet, & just let the players hang out at the "real pool" to relax & recharge a bit -
I believe the parents/coaches re-hydrated(?) also Wink

my guess is they were just thinking of THEIR future & didn't give yours much thought
Last edited by Bee>
observer44observer441,000+ posts
IMO...Baseball and its struggles are best utilized to teach bigger lessons - life lessons.

The lessons here are...

1. You don't want to get entagled in such situations or in politics? Then take your skills to a level where you are "Above the bubble" In other words you didn't win the first game. You've got no complaint. Next time you have be good enough to win and be above the fray. Keep working.

2. The world is not always right or fair as you may see it. Get used to it. The sooner you learn that and learn to cope with such situations and only use them to motivate you positively, the stronger you will be.

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